Blurred Lines Trial - Transcript Exs. A-F

Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 1 of 75 Page ID
#:9654
XHI IT A

#:9655
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
THE HONORABLE JOHN A. KRONSTADT
4
5
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE PRESIDING
6
7
Pharrell Williams, et al.,
Plaintiffs,
9
10
Case No.
vs.
CV 13-06004-JAK(AGRx)
11
12
13
Bridgeport Music, Inc., et al.,

Defendants.
14
15
16
17
18
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS

Day 6 - P.M. Session
19
Los Angeles, California
20
Wednesday, March 4, 2015
21
22
23
24
25
Pamela A. Batalo, CSR, FCRR, RMR

Official Reporter
Roybal Federal Building
255 East Temple Street
Room 181-1
90012
(213) 687-0446

#:9656
12
1
Universal
A.
Yes.
Q.
Television
marketing plan; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Radio appearances by Mr. Thicke were part of the marketing
plan; correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Print interviews by Mr. Thicke were part of the marketing
Interscope's marketing
plan; correct?
appearances by Mr. Thicke were part of the
10
plan; correct?
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Pitching blogs to report on Blurred Lines was part of the
13
marketing plan; correct?
14
A.
Yes.
15
Q.
And I believe you told me that a label representative
16
typically attended those interviews that Mr. Thicke attended;
17
correct?
18
A.
Typically they attend TV appearances
19
Q.
Okay.
20
agree that a consistent message
21
important in promoting a release; correct?
22
A.
Yes.
23
Q.
And the artist's interview talking points are an important
24
part of the marketing
25
A.
and radio interviews.
And in doing interviews and promoting a song, you

from the artist or label is
strategy; correct?
I believe they're important, but we don't dictate what the

#:9657
52
1
UP"
BARS
RECORDING
OF THE
1 THROUGH
BASS
MELODY
AND
KEYBOARD
PARTS
8.
(AUDIO PLAYED IN OPEN COURT)
3
4
BY MR.
PARTS,
BUSCH:
NOW,
THE
ALSO
"BLURRED
BARS
LINES"
1 THROUGH
BASS
MELODY
KEYBOARD
8.
7
8
BY MR.
OKAY.
10
THAT
MS.
11
DEPOSIT
12
DISAGREEMENT
BUSCH:
MS.
FINELL
COPY.
WILBUR,
HAS
I UNDERSTAND
ABOUT
BASS
AND
KEYBOARD
15
GIVE
IT UP"
INTERLOCK
16
ON THE
RECORDING,
17
THAT.
18
MUCH
SHORTER
19
OKAY.
20
THE
21
HARMONICALLY?
22
IN A DIFFERENT
23
BUT
24
IN THE
RECORDED
25
OKAY.
AND
BASS
AND
LINE
THEY
THAT
SHE
SAYS
THAT
THE
PARTIES
IS, WOULD
WE
JUST
RHYTHMICALLY
THE
THEY
BASS
THEY
WOULD
AND
AUDIO
AND
TO YOU
THE
THAN
EDITED
CLIPS
IS IN THE
HAVE
THAT.
14
ALTHOUGH,
ARE
PREPARED
MY QUESTION
13
THESE
APPEAR
YOU
KEYBOARD
HEARD
AND
-- THEY
NOTES
IN THIS
THAT
INTERLOCK
FROM
THAT
"GOT
TO
HARMONICALLY?
ARE
IN THE
AGREE
YOU AGREE
SOMEWHAT
EXHIBIT
DEPOSIT
LIKE
ARE
COPY.
IN "BLURRED
RHYTHMICALLY
LINES,"
AND
WAY.
DO?
WOULD
VERSIONS
YOU
OF BOTH
AGREE
THAT
SONGS.
IN "BLURRED
LINES,"

#:9658
126
1
same vocal
questions
melodies
for you about

First
backup
we just heard
hook
Got
to hear
the vocal
(Whereupon,
the audio
MR. BUSCH:
Now we are going
to the
to hear
the vocal
melody
to the -- from Blurred Lines to okay, now he was close.

(Whereupon,
the audio
MR. BUSCH:
And now the same
(Whereupon,
10
was played.)
the audio
for but you're
an animal.
was played.)
BY MR. BUSCH:
12
Q.
13
those
14
A.
15
Robin
16
down
17
sounds
18
on the fourth
19
there's
20
five
21
there's
Mr. Williams,
vocal
do you recognize
melodies
They're
not.
was -- Robin
in between
I recognize
Thicke
a white
note.
24
backup
you picked
was yodeling
and black
But the other

There's
three
as well.
straight
MR. BUSCH:
Q.
that
Now
I want
four notes
key,
They
Next
going
I believe,
up and
is what
it
one only has a different
four syllables
But you're
the last
an animal is
Dancin' lady,
one goes
down.
slide.
for you from
Got to Give it Up, the
of dancin' lady.
Your
Honor,
my objection
note
in dancin' lady and
go up and down.
in the bottom,
to play
MR. KING:
of
a line where
and he's
five in okay, now he was close.
syllables
23
that the first
are identical?
like to me.
22
25
melody
was played.)
11
some
to Give it Up, dancin' lady.
I'll have
it.
we are going
from
and then
would
be it's

#:9659
127
1
cumulative,
they
it's beyond
chose
the scope
not to call Mr. Williams
THE COURT:
What
MR. BUSCH:
376, page
THE COURT:
Just
page
7
8
in their
was it?
13.
case
What
He's
a minute.
(Whereupon,
the audio
MR. BUSCH:
Play
and
in chief.
exhibit?
the composer
the audio
10
MR. BUSCH:
That
11
And Now we're

Blurred
of the
was
going
that.
was played.)
time.
Louder,
please.
was played.)
from Got to Give
to play
and
that's
it Up.
why I'm from
Lines.
(Whereupon,
13
14
BY MR. BUSCH:
15
Q.
Do you recognize
16
A.
Close.
17
Q.
Last
18
those
19
Page
the audio
those
one, we are going
four notes
was played.)
four notes
to play
so you can hear
to be identical?
on the MIDI
it without
synthesizer
the lyrics.
14.
20
(Whereupon,
the audio
21
MR. BUSCH:
Now
(Whereupon,
22
You may play
it one more
(Whereupon,
23
examination,
song --
12
of direct
was played.)
from Blurred
the audio
Lines.
was played.)
BY MR. BUSCH:
24
Q.
Do you recognize
25
A.
I recognize
those
those
four notes
four notes.
to be identical?

#:9660
128
1
Q.
To be identical?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Exactly.
A.
But that doesn't
Q.
Okay.
A.
That's
Q.
Okay.
8
9
It sounds
playing
the same thing.
Okay.
mean
just what
Now
I want
it's mine.
you played,
sir.
to talk to you about
the bass melody,
if we
could.
And,
10
Mr. Williams,
11
understand
12
lines,
the one from
13
Lines,
sound
14
A.
I'm
15
Q.
Isn't
16
that
the bass
17
sound
18
A.
19
I understand
20
soul music
21
That's
and acknowledge
Got
isn't
when
to Give
it correct
people
that
say that
you
the two bass
it Up and the one from Blurred
similar?
sorry?
it true
that
lines
you understand
between
Blurred
it when
Lines
people
and Got
remark
to Give
it Up
similar?
When
it feels
that way.
that.
sounds
why we have
23
jury Mr. Williams'
24
through
When
I understand
like
they
talk
about
the feeling.
soul music.
Jazz
feels
the feeling,
But,
you know,
like
jazz.
genres.
MR. BUSCH:
22
25
like you're
Your
Honor,
deposition
I would
testimony
like to play
at page
for the
122, lines
14.
THE COURT:
Any
objection
to that being
played?

#:9661
129
1
MR. KING:
THE COURT:
Lines
MR. KING:
My only
in his case
impeachment.
Let me look.
in chief
I'm sorry.
2 through
This
MR. BUSCH:
It was played
MR. KING:
Well,
there
Okay.
THE COURT:
Mr. Williams,
Q.
13
comparison
14
going
Wasn't
this played
previously.
you go.
Let's move
I would
on, please.
from both
to play
like to now play
songs,
keyboard
Exhibit
f~om
(Whereupon,
the audio
16
MR. BUSCH:
Now
Blurred
the keyboard
376, page
Got to Give
15
19.
First
I'm
it Up.
was played.)
I'm going
to play
the keyboard
from
Lines.
(Whereupon,
18
19
impeaching.
BY MR. BUSCH:
12
17
and it's not
previously?
10
11
isn't
is he had the opportunity
testimony
THE COURT:
14.
objection
to get this
122 what?
the audio
was played.)
BY MR. BUSCH:
20
Q.
Mr. Williams,
21
A.
They
22
instrument,
23
version
24
playing
25
as well.
don't.
do those
They
Rhodes,
sound
Fender
on the version
it much
more
two keyboards
like you're
Rhodes.
But in your version
using
But also
that you're
staccato
sound
playing
so you can't
similar
the same
I notice
on the
for us, you're
really
of Got to Give
to you?
hear
the chord
it Up, the chords

#:9662
164
1
MR. MILLER:
THE COURT:
I believe so, your Honor.

Well, whichever is the most comprehensive
Universal entity, what's your position with respect to its
direct liability?
5
6
MR. BUSCH:
They are directly liable because they sell
the record.
THE COURT:
Okay.
So on what --
MR. BUSCH:
They distribute
THE COURT:
And do you disagree with that, if it's
10
shown by a preponderance
11
infringement,
12
Music entity which sold the record?
13
distributed
15
violating
16
17
of the evidence that there's an
is there a liability for -- for the Universal
MR. MILLER:
14
it.
If the jury concludes that Universal
the record and it infringes, then they would be
THE COURT:
Is it disputed that Universal distributed
the recording?
18
MR. MILLER:
19
THE COURT:
20
So -- under what circumstances
21
22
23
24
25
have contributory
No, I don't think so.

Okay.
So just a minute.
would Universal only
-- or, excuse me, derivative
MR. BUSCH:
liability?
If they are found to have directly
infringed, then I would -THE COURT:
But, no, my point is if there's -- if the
jury finds there's infringement and if Universal distributed the

#:9663
165
1
recording,
would
according
to what
I heard
MR.
is the
MILLER:
record
THE COURT:
If there's
Interscope
is a division
Well,
so I don't
quite
-- if you establish
undisputed
that
a Universal
entity
recording,
then
there
be liability.
MR.
9
10
on the details
11
to who
would
MILLER:
We did
of which
is the
record
THE
COURT:
12
one
label
here's
what
I don't
14
well,
if the
facts
15
an entity
where
16
liability
for the entity
17
something
else.
18
and
19
think
25
reasons.
and not
could
have
and
distributed
the
I'm a little
hazy
we did
a stipulation
-- you're
about
this
I think
one where
hypothetically
as
it's
going
it asks
the
say,
oh,
you can have

seeking
doesn't
alternative
I see
could
distribution
the jury
I think
not
see -- the jury
is saying
perhaps
but
-- it's
different,
Well,
MILLER:
direct
but
agree
theory,
with
but
that
I don't
to be confusing.
jury
to do something
and unnecessary.
THE
22
were
it's
so forth.
I don't
see.
here
MR.
confusing
Interscope
and
or entities
is which
and
the entity
they
it works
20
24
they
see it then.
a stipulation.
So I don't
13
so then
and
infringement
23
say,
label.
21
Mr. Miller
be liable.
3
4
then
COURT:
It's
MR.
understands,
easier
BUSCH:
Star
Trak
I don't
see it, Mr.
than
I thought.
Just
Star
Trak
is a joint
Busch.
is -- just
venture
For those
so your
-- the name
Honor
of a joint

#:9664
166
1
venture between Interscope, which is an unincorporated
of UMG, and together they sold the album.
division
THE COURT:
Well, any -- they are a defendant, though?
MR. BUSCH:
Yes.
THE COURT:
Let's be clSar.
MR. MILLER:
As I say, I think we have done a
stipulation
details of it because Mr. King did it, but it addresses these
issues.
10
that says who each entity is.
THE COURT:
I think it would.
I don't recall the
And -- if there -- the
11
other point to keep in mind is that I think it's -- that the
12
stipulation probably will address this.
13
then -- it's what the evidence would show as to who distributed
14
the allegedly infringing work -- works.
15
MR. MILLER:
16
THE COURT:
There's two.
Right.
And anybody who distributed
for that.
18
potentially
19
issue, I think, and if that's not the case, then let me know but
20
I don't think you need to get into Star Trak for the same
21
reason.
22
directly liable.
24
25
anybody who distributed
it got money
17
23
Any
If it doesn't, it's
it is then
-- is liable without getting into this secondary
If Star Trak distributed,
then Star Trak would be
But maybe you can simplify this.
MR. BUSCH:
talk to Mr. Miller.
THE COURT:
We'll look at the stipulation and I will

We can work it out.
All right.
Then I have -- I'll look

#:9665
EXHI IT

#:9666
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
THE HONORABLE
JOHN A. KRONSTADT
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE PRESIDING
5
6
7
Pharrell Williams, et al.,
Plaintiffs,
9
10
Case No.
vs.
CV 13-06004-JAK(AGRx)
11
12
13
Bridgeport Music, Inc., et al.,

Defendants.
14
15
16
17
18
REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS
Day 7 - P.M. Session
19
20
Thursday, March 5, 2015
21
22
23
24
25
Pamela A. Batalo, CSR, FCRR, RMR

Official Reporter
Roybal Federal Building
255 East Temple Street
Room 181-1
90012
(213) 687-0446

#:9667
38
royalties, whatever the --
THE COURT:
MR. BUSCH:
All right.
106 gives the exclusive right to the
copyright owner to do.
MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, before you get to that point,
you have to prove that you're a member of the distribution
chain, which presumably
8
9
THE COURT:
the following.
they can prove that --
I think the better way to handle this is
I think there should be a separate determination
10
because there are separate counterclaim
11
going to be -- if this liability is found and if damages are
12
awarded, we'll then be able to see how that -- how that
13
occurred.
14
defendants.
There's
I mean, if it's going to be listed.

And then if, Mr. Busch, there is a finding of no
15
liability as to a particular
16
contend has to be liable as a matter of law in light of the
17
finding, other findings, you can make that motion to correct the
18
verdict.
19
MR. BUSCH:
20
MR. MILLER:
counterclaim
defendant whom you
That's fair enough, your Honor.

So I understand,
21
one for each party on each --
22
THE COURT:
That's correct.
23
MR. MILLER:
That's fine.
24
THE COURT:
25
let's -- I want to get going.
Okay.
there will be a separate
Anything else?
Other than --
Because we've kept some of the

#:9668
IBIT C
3117/2015
Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document

Filed
03/17/15 Page 16 of 75 Page ID
iTunes - Music347-1
- Blurred Unes
by RobinThicke
#:9669
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Blurred Lines (feat. T.I. & Pharr...
Robin Thicke
4:22
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000
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Digital Booklet - Blurred Lines
Robin Thicke
Album Only
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La La
$10.99
Genres: Pop, Music, R&B/Soul,
Rock, Contemporary R&B,
Electronic, Dance
Released: Iul 30, 2013
2013 Star Trak, LLC
12 Items
Customer
Ratings
465 Ratings
Influencers
Customer
Reviews
I despise him
by MonstersUnderYourBed
Brian McKnight
Raphael Saadiq
D'Angelo
'What a pleasure it is to degrade a woman"
Contemporaries
(pukes)
by Zhooligan20
Remy Shand
Maxwell
Justin Timberlake
Van Hunt
John Legend
Ne-Yo
Ryan Leslie
Chico DeBarge
K'Jon
Noel Gourdin
Actual words from robin thickes mouth
Degenerate, dime a dozen, douche bag circle jerk, usless noise.

Well ..well ..well
byTAKMT
I must say I am enjoying this album. It downloaded this morning and I have been rocking out since. I like all songs
and have not had to skip any which is rare!!! The only other albums I can listen to all the way through without
skipping any songs are Rhythm Nation and Purple Rain!!1Good job Robin!!1 I have been a fan of RT since the
...More
Biography
Born: March 10, 1977 in Los Angeles, CA
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3117/2015

Filed
03/17/15
Page 17 of 75 Page ID
iTunes - Music347-1
- Blurred Unes
by Robin
Thicke
#:9670
Genre: R&B/Soul
Years Active: '90s, 'OOs,'lOs
One of the more charismatic, flashy, and commercially successful R&Bacts of the 2000s and 201 Os, Robin Thicke
didn't have the toughest row to hoe to achieve stardom, but he was one of the least likely artists to acquire street
credibility. He worked for over a decade as a modestly successful songwriter and fledgling solo artist prior to
breaking through - assisted by the Neptunes - with 2006's The Evolution of Robin Thicke. On that album, his
inspirations, ranging from '70s Marvin .
Full Bio
Top Albums
and Songs by Robin Thicke
l.
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213
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Filed
03/17/15
Page 18 of 75 Page ID
iTunes - Music 347-1
- Blurred Unes
by Robin
Thicke
#:9671
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414

#:9677
IBIT E

#:9678
UNITED
CENTRAL
DISTRICT
STATES
OF CALIFORNIA
HONORABLE
UNITED
PHARRELL
STATES
WILLIAMS,
DISTRICT
COURT
- WESTERN
DIVISION
JOHN A. KRONSTADT
DISTRICT
JUDGE PRESIDING
ET AL.,
PLAINTIFFS,
VS.
BRIDGEPORT
CV13-06004-JAK
MUSIC,
INC., ET AL.,
DEFENDANTS.
REPORTER'S
TRANSCRIPT
OF DAY NINE OF TRIAL
LOS ANGELES,
TUESDAY,
PROCEEDINGS
CALIFORNIA
MARCH
10, 2015
ALEXANDER T. JOKO, CSR NO. 12272

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
255 EAST TEMPLE STREET, ROOM 181-H
LOS ANGELES, CA 90012
ALEXANDER.JOKO@GMAIL.COM

#:9679
17
1
THE COURT:
THAT'S
FINE.
SAME, GIVE ME A BRIEF.
THAT'S
YOU DON'T CONTEND
EXCUSE
10
IS IT YOUR POSITION
-- I HEARD WHAT YOU
IS IT YOUR POSITION
THAT THERE'S
ISSUE THAT HASN'T

YOU'RE
SEEKING
11
BEEN ADDRESSED
DECLARATORY
13
JURY'S VERDICT.
RELIEF
I BELIEVE
THE COURT:
15
MR. KING:
16
THE COURT:
17
MR. KING:
19
HONOR HAS TO DECLARE
20
ANSWERING
21
THAT WE HAVEN'T
25
EVEN AFFECTED
THAT WASN'T
MAYBE
ON
BY THE
MY QUESTION.
I MISSED
THE QUESTION.
READ MY QUESTION,
PLEASE.
(RECORD READ)
18
24
BY THE JURY ON WHICH
YOUR DECISION
IS NOT REALLY
14
23
ANY
RELIEF?
MR. KING:
12
22
-- SET FORTH IN YOUR --
JUST SAID.
8
9
ISSUE?
ME.
6
7
THE ONLY OTHER
WELL,
I DON'T BELIEVE
THE PARTIES'
YOUR QUESTION
BY SAYING,
DISCUSSED
THE COURT:
SUBMIT A BELIEF WITHIN
RIGHTS.
THERE'S
SO.
BUT YOUR
SO I'M
NO NEW ISSUE
BEFORE.
THEN BRIEF THE ISSUE.
EACH SIDE
A WEEK.
AND THEN, SIMILARLY,

THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED,
MR. BUSCH,
SUBMIT YOUR REQUEST

WITHIN
A WEEK.

#:9680
EXHI I F

#:9681
UNITED
CENTRAL
DISTRICT
STATES DISTRICT
OF CALIFORNIA
HONORABLE
UNITED
- WESTERN
DIVISION
JOHN A. KRONSTADT
STATES DISTRICT
PHARRELL WILLIAMS,
COURT
JUDGE PRESIDING
ET AL.,
PLAINTIFFS,
CV13-06004-JAK
VS.
BRIDGEPORT
MUSIC,
INC., ET AL.,
DEFENDANTS.
REPORTER'S
TRANSCRIPT
OF DAY TWO OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS
LOS ANGELES,
WEDNESDAY,
FEBRUARY
CALIFORNIA
25, 2015, MORNING SESSION
ALEXANDER T. JOKO, CSR NO. 12272

FEDERAL OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
255 EAST TEMPLE STREET, ROOM 181-H
LOS ANGELES, CA 90012
ALEXANDER.JOKO@GMAIL.COM

#:9682
4
Los Angeles,
California,
Wednesday,
11:38
-000-
(Jury Out)
THE COURT:
no jurors
raise
All
are present.
before
right.
We are back
Are there
any issues
the jurors
MR. KING:
THE COURT:
come
needs
to
Thicke,
THE COURT:
jurors
Please
Thank
Okay.
you.
00
would
to spell
16
THE WITNESS:
17
THE COURT:
remain
00
previously
sworn
be seated.
All
00
right.
All
eight
under
you please
restate
your name.
You
Robin
And,
Alan
Thicke.
00
sir, do you understand
that
you
00
00
19
THE WITNESS:
20
THE COURT:
Yes.
Okay.
00
Please
proceed,
Mr. Busch.
00
CROSS-EXAMINATION
21
BY MR. BUSCH:
23
Q.
24
written
25
questions
Before
00
00
the break,
answers
00
00
it.
oath?
22
00
00
Mr. Thicke,
do not have
00
00
are back.
14
00
00
Honor.
Mr. Busch?
Robin
12
18
anyone
but
(Jury In)
11
15
on the record
out?
No, your
10
13
25, 2015
a.m.
February
that
we asked
Mr. Thicke,
you supplied
I was asking
us in response
you in this very
case.
you about
the
to written
00
00
00

#:9683
5
Do you recall
1
2
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
and then
that?
00
00
And
I showed
the signature
page
Do you recall
you a page
from those
signed
seeing
by your
that
written
questions
attorneys.
a moment
00
00
ago?
00
A.
Yes.
00
Q.
Okay.
00
THE COURT:
What's
MR. BUSCH:
33, your Honor.
00
10
THE COURT:
Thank
00
Mr. Thicke,
I now would
And,
11
Q.
12
screen.
number,
please?
00
you.
like you to look
at the
00
00
Do you see your
13
the exhibit
signature
on the page
entitled
00
00
14
Verification?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
So that
17
A.
Yes.
00
18
Q.
Okay.
00
19
20
00
is your
I would
and 70, line
signature?
like to play pages
8, to 71, line
THE COURT:
22
MR. KING:
23
THE COURT:
All
24
(Whereupon,
the video
BY MR. BUSCH:
Any
8.
21
25
00
That
objection
69, line
23, to 70, line
is clip T-56
to that being
00
played?
00
00
You may play

was played
00
and T-28.
No, your Honor.

right.
1,
that.
for the jury.)
00
00
00

#:9684
6
I'm putting
Q.
you'll
here
well;
see that
today,
these
responses
and Mr. King,
MR. KING:
were
signed
and Mr. King's
question
where
Your
he tries
THE COURT:
Restate
MR. BUSCH:
Would
10
11
17.
12
Interrogatory
13
Q.
Actually
page.
by Mr. Miller,
name
I object
to draw
counsel
I agree.
the question,
could
No.
is under
And
00
who's
00
there
as
to the portions
into
of the
the contract.
00
please.
00
00
I will.
put up Exhibit
you go to page
15.
33, at pages
Okay.
Here
16 and
00
it is.
00
00
see in this
question
You're
that we asked
referring
to what
you
00
of
00
page
00
16
MR. BUSCH:
Page
17
THE COURT:
Thank
16, your Honor,
Interrogatory
No.
We asked
20
following
you, Mr. Thicke,
question:
22
It's published.
23
BY MR. BUSCH:
My question
24
Q.
25
yourself,
sir?
00
00:
THE COURT:
21
16.
00
you.
BY MR. BUSCH:
Q.
00
Sustained.
33, please?
19
00
00
16.
THE COURT:
Exhibit
Honor,
you please
And you'll
14
18
the one signature
00
15
on the screen
correct?
5
6
back
Please
to answer
describe
oath
the
00
00
--
It's not necessary
So what's
under
to read documents.
00
00
the question?
00
is can you please
read the question
to
00
00

#:9685
7
1
A.
Please
describe
00
THE COURT:
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
what's
Thank
You can just read

Oh, thank
Ladies
on the screen?
Yes?
please.
you.
Anybody
00
00
and gentlemen,
who
can each
can't
of you see
see it?
Okay.
you.
00:
00
00
BY MR. BUSCH:
00
Q.
Have
you read
A.
Yes,
sir.
10
Q.
Go to the answer.
11
the answer
12
A.
The highlighted
portion
13
Q.
The highlighted
yellow
14
A.
Yes,
the question
to yourself?
00
00
that
The answer
is on page
17, and do you see
you gave?
00
00.
is my answer?
portion,
00
do you see that?
00
I do.
00
THE COURT:
15
16
it to yourself,
Wait
a second.
Is this
to interrogatory
16?
00:
00
17
MR. BUSCH:
Yes.
18
THE COURT:
That's
19
MR. BUSCH:
Okay.
Do you see here
where
00
fine.
Go ahead.
00
00
you say that
you told Mr. Thicke
to
20
Q.
21
create
22
A.
23
would
24
Q.
Do you see that?
00
25
A.
I do see that.
00
a song that
evoked
the musical
It says Robin
Thicke
told Pharrell
love
to
create
a song.
era of Got To Give

Williams
It Up?
that Thicke
00
00
00
00

#:9686
8
And
it is your
Q.
not occur;
A.
That
Q.
And
read everything
right?
is that
testimony
you told
did
in your
document
deposition
before
that you
you signed
it;
00
00
00
Objection,
asked
00
Sustained.
00
BY MR. BUSCH:
Q.
00
00
-- you read this
THE COURT:
00
Did you read
this
11
MR. KING:
12
THE COURT:
document
before
Objection.
Asked
Sustained.
you signed
it?
00:
and answered.
We covered
00
this.
00
BY MR. BUSCH:
00
Why did you say something
14
Q.
15
not -- in your
16
was not true?
17
A.
18
lawsuit
When
sworn
I heard
in your
interrogatory
interrogatory
response
in this
that was
00
case that
00
00
-- Pharrell
and I had not spoken
about
the
00
00:
THE COURT:
19
20
conversation
00
-- and you stated
13
-- that
is correct.
MR. KING:
10
that
correct?
that
By Pharrell,
are you referring
to
00
Mr. Williams?
00
21
THE WITNESS:
22
Mr. Williams
23
was offered
24
I heard
25
heard
or filed,
his deposition
his
recollection
Oh, yes,
sorry.
00
and I had not spoken

and so almost
when
I showed
since
the lawsuit
a year had gone by, and once

up at my deposition
of the evening,
a light bulb
went
00
00
and I
00
off and
00

#:9687
9
1
I realized
living
I was not present
in revisionist
BY MR.
the song and I was
for my own benefit.
testify,
A.
00
saying
you changed
that
your
once you heard
Pharrell
Williams
00
story?
00
I didn't
00
MR. KING:
THE COURT:
BY MR.
Q.
11
isn't
Objection.
Argumentative.
00
Sustained.
00
BUSCH:
Your
10
00
counsel
that
represents
both
Mr. Williams
and Mr. Thicke;
correct?
12
MR. KING:
13
THE COURT:
Isn't
Objection.
Sustained,
Irrelevant.
00
sustained.
00.
00
it true,
Q.
16
testimony
17
strategy
18
song,
19
It
20
A.
I'm
21
Q.
Isn't
22
decided
23
that
24
communications
25
sworn
00
00
BY MR. BUSCH:
15
00
00
So you're
Q.
14
history
he created
BUSCH:
when
is because
would
sir, that
you and Mr. Williams
be to say that
not that
the reason
you were
why you changed

realized
you had no part
trying
to create
that
your
a better
in creating
a song like
the
Got To Give
Up?
00
00
00
00
00
sorry.
Can you repeat
the question,
it true that you and Mr. Williams
a better
you were
strategy
not involved
testimony?
for this
case would
in the process
with Mr. Williams,
that
please?
got together
00
and
be for you to say
and had no
is why you changed
00
00
00
your
00
00

#:9688
10
1
A.
Absolutely
not.
Q.
It took Mr. Williams'
were
not present
conversations
to realize
A.
wasn't
what
it was very
clear
to me that
I see.
And,
Mr. Thicke,
when
testimony
Blurred
to have
Lines
with Mr. Williams?
was
you recall
created
that
you
or had any
It took his testimony
00
for you
It had been
two years
-- and since
11
the time
12
interview
13
release
14
this;
15
A.
16
song,
17
Q.
So it's
18
your
testimony
19
rephrase
since
from that
of your deposition,
after
interview
of Blurred
isn't
That
the
that
Lines
day,
gotten
once
-- that
to speak
I heard
I've
have
been
shown
about
00
his recollection,
his version
it might
but
of the song and it
you gave
shortly
where
you said
something
00
two years
00
after
at
after
the
similar
to
00
00
after
the creation
of the -- of the
00
interview.
00
your testimony
your
that
after
recollection
nine months,
-- strike
you -- it's
-- let me
00
It's your testimony
21
things
22
interviews
23
from the
you said in your
24
that
what
25
A.
I'm sorry.
was because
creation
you're
00
00
that.
20
00
00
right?
that
00
was the truth.
you interview
that
was nine months

first
the writing
him and I had never
we remembered
Q.
00
00
that?
10
00:
that
interview
you didn't
of Blurred
Lines
the reason
was because
remember
00
-- in your
00
things
accurately
just nine months
before?
00
Is
00
00
saying?
Please
why you said the
repeat
the question.
00

#:9689
11
Are you saying now that the reason why you said the things
Q.
you said in your interview, in your interviews, about speaking
00
to Pharrell Williams and telling him to create a song just like
00
Got To Give It Up was because you simply did not remember
00
correctly what had occurred nine months earlier during the
00
creation of Blurred
00
A.
Yes, that is correct.
00
Q.
I want to shift gears now for a second and talk about
00
financial matters related to Blurred
Lines?
Lines.
10
A.
Okay.
11
Q.
As the publisher of Blurred
12
licensing for Blurred
13
A.
14
not the majority stake writer.
15
licenses for Blurred
16
Q.
17
you said in your deposition about this.
18
A.
Okay.
19
Q.
T-43.
00
00
Lines;
Lines,
you approved large
correct?
I do not believe that I have to approve the license if I'm

I don't remember approving any
Lines.
00
00
00
00
00
Let me see if I can refresh your recollection about what
00
00
00
This is page 162, line 14 to page 163, line 13.
20
THE COURT:
21
MR. KING:
22
00
00
Any objection to that being read?
00
I didn't hear the ending reference,
00
Mr. Busch.
00
23
MR. BUSCH:
24
MR. KING:
25
THE COURT:
Page 162, line 14, to page 163, line 13.

I have no objection.
All right.
You may play that.
00
00
00

#:9690
64
1
few minutes late but that is my present estimate based on the
02:
calendar I have in the morning.
02:
Okay.
Mr. Busch, would you call the next witness,
please.
02:
02:
MR. BUSCH:
Judith Finell.
02:
THE COURT:
Would you come forward, please.
02:
Judith Finell, was sworn
02:
Please have a seat.
02:
THE CLERK:
Can you please state your full name and spell it for
10
the record.
11
THE WITNESS:
12
THE COURT:
13
THE WITNESS:
14
THE COURT:
02:
Judith Finell, J-U-D-I-T-H,

All right.
F-I-N-E-L-L.
Good afternoon, Ms. Finell.
Good afternoon.
02:
02:
02:
Please proceed, Mr. Busch.
02:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
15
02:
02:
16
BY MR. BUSCH:
17
Q.
Good afternoon, Ms. Finell.
02:
18
A.
Good afternoon.
02:
19
Q.
Would you please describe your educational background.
02:
20
A.
Well, I began the study of piano as a young child.
02:
21
4 I played piano and studied music theory all through my
02:
22
childhood and played professionally
02:
23
venues through my childhood.
24
and graduated with a piano degree in performance
and then went
02:
25
to the University of California Berkeley for a graduate degree
02:
02:
At age
on the radio and other
Attended UCLA as an undergraduate
02:

#:9691
65
1
in musicology.
Q.
musicology
business?
A.
Council on the Arts and the National Endowment for the Arts on
02:
contemporaneous
02:
was published and that led to a great deal of consulting
music field.
Okay.
02:
And following your d~gree that you received in
02:
from Berkeley, what did you next do in the music
02:
02:
I was commissioned
to write a book by the New York State
music performance,
practice and resources, which
I had moved to New York by that time.
in the
And I had
02:
02:
02:
10
started a consulting firm.
11
Q.
And what year was it that you started your consulting
12
A.
1980.
13
Q.
And can you tell us what the consulting
14
beginning
15
A.
16
to consult with musicians,
17
clients involved with the production
18
contemporary
19
composers and institutions
such as the Metropolitan
20
Boston Symphony Orchestra,
and we are often asked to produce
21
events at Carnegie Hall and Lincoln Center.
22
Q.
23
expand to other areas?
24
A.
In 1987 on a gradual basis I was asked by attorneys
02:
25
to serve as either an expert witness in copyright infringement
02:
02:
firm?
02:
firm's business was
in 1980?
02:
02:
At the beginning of the founding of that firm, the idea was

primarily classical artists and
classical music.
and promotion of
We represented
conductors,
Opera,
At some time did your -- did the focus of your business
Yes.
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9692
66
1
cases or as well as consulting on various potential
and actual litigation.
Q.
retained your services?
A.
involving Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey, Bob Dylan, Lionel
02:
Richie, Gloria Estefan, Julio Iglesias, the BC Boyz, Red Hot
02:
Chili Peppers, many other artists.
02:
Q.
Okay.
litigation
Yes.
02:
02:
And since 1987 who are some of the artists who have
02:
02:
Well, the individual artists we have worked on matters
And who are some of the companies who have retained your
02:
02:
10
services?
11
A.
12
Dreamworks, many different
13
advertising
14
same party, Universal.
15
Q.
16
general?
17
A.
18
dispute about copyright infringement,
19
who work with me and we -- we evaluate music for whether or not
02:
20
we
02:
21
standpoint has taken place in terms of copying, but often we're
02:
22
engaged to evaluate music before it's released for a film or
02:
23
television, such as a film score where there is a concern that
02:
24
it may be at risk of copyright infringement,
02:
25
asked to consult on making musical modifications,
02:
We have done work for Sony, Disney, HBO, Lionsgate,
Okay.
firms.
02:
film and television companies and
As well as I believe in this case, it's the
02:
02:
02:
And what are the nature of these engagements
in
02:
02:
They are more or less two categories.
One is if there is a
I have a team of people
feel there has been copyright infringement
from a musical
and we're often

for example,
02:
02:
02:

#:9693
67
1
to avoid risk.
Q.
infringement matters.
Okay.
Category one of your usual engagements
02:
is copyright
02:
Do you have a breakdown of how often you are on the
02:
02:
side of the potential plaintiff or party claiming copyright
02:
infringement
02:
defendant's
A.
It's pretty evenly split.
02:
Q.
And how many tim~s have you been asked to do this analysis?
02:
10
A.
Well, over 20 plus years, hundreds of times.
02:
11
Q.
Okay.
02:
12
which side has asked you to do the analysis, whether it's on the
02:
13
side of the party that wants to allege copyright infringement
02:
14
on the side of the potential defendant?
15
A.
Yes.
16
Q.
Okay.
17
to ask you to analyze whether the work was infringed that they
02:
18
do not have a case?
02:
19
A.
Yes.
20
Q.
Okay.
21
A.
Quite often.
02:
22
Q.
Okay.
02:
23
A.
Well, often we'll receive a phone call from a potential
24
plaintiff who feels that his or her song has been imitated or
02:
25
copied or a film score in some sort of venue and we'll be asked
02:
and how often you are on the other side, on the

side?
02:
And do you perform the same analysis regardless of
or
02:
02:
Do you ever tell people or companies who come to you
02:
02:
About how often does that occur?
And can you describe what you mean by quite often?
02:
02:

#:9694
68
1
for an appraisal as to whether or not we feel that the music is
02:
similar enough to the other song.
02:
evaluation
or that it's not original enough to carry what I would see as
02:
the challenge of a dispute.
02:
Q.
for Universal Music Group.
Okay.
and we may find that the music isn't similar enough
And you mentioned
that you've been consulting more
02:
02:
02:
,How many times and in what regard have you done work
And we'll -- we'll conduct an
for the Universal company of entities?
02:
02:
Well, I'd say about 20 times, if you consider all of their
10
A.
11
affiliated
12
Q.
13
preemptive
14
it's released and advise whether it is infringing and rewrite
02:
15
music so it's not infringing; is that right?
02:
16
A.
Yes.
02:
17
Q.
How many times have you been engaged to do this?
02:
18
A.
Many hundreds of times for television
02:
19
a bit for advertising where music is written to emulate another
02:
20
musical work sometimes.
02:
21
Q.
On whose behalf have you done that?
02:
22
A.
Well, the client is usually the company that wants to use
02:
23
the so-to-speak -- the newer work, the one that emulates perhaps
02:
24
another work or there's a concern that it emulates it.
02:
25
either the film or television or advertising
Okay.
companies.
02:
02:
Another category that you mentioned
is doing
02:
work where you were asked to listen to music before
series and also quite
So it's
company that is
02:
02:

#:9695
69
1
producing
the work.
Q.
music-related
A.
Yes.
02:
Q.
Can you please describe that?
02:
A.
Well, I was asked by the National Music Publishers
02:
Association,
publishers
witness in a dispute against the entire record industry, which
02:
10
was represented by the RIAA, in a dispute as to the split of
02:
11
income from the fees of selling ringtones on cell phones, and I
02:
12
was asked to do that before -- at the library of Congress before
02:
13
the royal
14
Q.
15
successful?
16
A.
Yes.
17
Q.
Are you an officer or on the board of any copyright-related
18
societies?
19
A.
20
of the USA.
21
Q.
22
copyright -- or copyright-related
23
A.
Yes, I do.
02:
24
Q.
Who?
02:
25
A.
I speak quite often at law schools, regularly at Stanford
02:
Okay.
02:
And have you also been on other types of

litigation?
02:
which is the organization
to which all music
in the United States belong to, to speak as an expert
Copyright Royalty Board.
Were you successful in -- was -- were the publishers
Yes.
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
The publishers were very successful.
02:
02:
02:
I'm an officer on the board of the Copyright Society
02:
02:
And do you regularly lecture or speak to academia on

societies on music issues?
02:
02:

#:9696
70
1
University,
Columbia University,
many different bar associations.
those talks, they receive CLE, professional
Hills Bar Association,
I think it's called the American
Property, AIPLE.
represents but it's intellectual
spoken before the New York state bar and the American Bar
02:
Association
02:
I'm sorry.
credits, so Beverly
The American
Institute of Intellectual
property law group.
And I have
also.
How many times have you been qualified as an expert witness
11
in federal court on musicology?
12
A.
MR. BUSCH:
THE COURT:
16
MR. MILLER:
musicology
Okay.
Your Honor, we would tender
Any objection.
02:
02:
02:
No objection as long as it's an expert on
Correct.
The motion is granted.
The
to be an expert with respect to
20
musicology
21
BY MR. BUSCH:
22
Q.
23
When you were engaged to determine possible infringement,
24
have a general methodology
25
A.
Thank you.
02:
02:
witness is acknowledged
02:
02:
Please proceed.
02:
02:
I would like to now speak to you about your methodology.
Yes.
02:
02:
19
only.
02:
02:
and not copyright infringement.

THE COURT:
18
02:
02:
Ms. Finell as an expert witness.
15
02:
02:
I think about ten.
13
02:
02:
I don't know precisely what that
Q.
17
UCLA, and
Usually when attorneys come to
L.A. Copyright Society.
10
14
Fordham, Vanderbilt,
that you employ?
do you
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9697
71
Can you please describe how you begin your analysis in a
Q.
music case.
A.
would call and say there's a feeling that one song copied
02:
another song and they want an evaluation.
02:
both copies of the songs and listen initially to see if we
02:
notice any phrases that they have in common or anything unusual
02:
that they seem to have in common.
02:
then we transcribe those particular
02:
Well, typical case would be either an artist or an attorney
So we would receive
And if they do, are found to,

passages.
02:
02:
Music is composed -- say a four-minute song is
10
02:
02:
11
composed of a whole series of passages, one phrase to another,
02:
12
as you have heard others speak, choruses and verses and all.
02:
13
And so through that four-minute
song, for example, we may find a
02:
14
certain section that sounds similar between two songs and that's
02:
15
what we would focus on.
02:
16
Q.
17
next?
18
A.
19
if it's given to us only in a recorded form.
20
given sheet music, we would still do our own transcriptions
21
the recording for accuracy purposes.
22
transcribing
23
both to the same key, say, if one song is in the key of C and
02:
24
one is the in the key of G, it's easier to compare them if they
02:
25
are both in one or the other key, say C or G.
02:
Okay.
And if those similarities
are heard, what do you do
02:
02:
Then we would transcribe, which means write down the music,

Even if we're
02:
02:
of
And then after
it, we would transpose it, which means change them
02:
02:
02:

#:9698
72
And do you examine the structure of the song in your
02:
Q.
analysis?
A.
about the structure of one song or the other and we feel that
02:
might also be an issue about copying.
02:
Q.
do?
A.
we find them, there is sort of a two-point comparison.
Yes.
Okay.
02:
But particularly
if we feel there's something unusual
And if you find lyrical similarities,
what do you
02:
02:
02:
and if
02:
One, are
02:
10
these unusual lyrics in any way, unusual words or unusual series
02:
11
of words.
But, two, if there are words that are in common, are
02:
12
they set to music in the same way.
Do they use the same notes,
02:
13
do they use the same rhythms, do they use something else unusual
02:
14
in the same way with those words.
02:
15
Q.
16
syllable or nonsense word, what do you do?
17
A.
18
music, where there are uses of unusual sounds.
19
could be some sort of street sign -- sound like the
02:
20
screeching
02:
21
brakes was throughout the recording and, believe it or not, we
02:
22
would look for that in another recording as kind of a sound
02:
23
effect.
02:
24
25
Well, of course we do look for lyrical similarities,
Okay.
Yes.
And what if there 'is an unusual sound or nonsense
02:
02:
There is many cases in music, particularly
modern
Sometimes it
I had one recording where the screeching of car
But also there could be words that aren't real words

in the English language, for example, but that are either slang
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9699
73
1
or just sort of made-up words that are popular among people in
02:
the age group that listen to that particular
02:
if it were found in the other song, again, we would look at
02:
seeing how that word is used within the musical context.
Is it
02:
set to the same kinds of lyrics.
Does it occur around the same
02:
kinds of other material.
Q.
few follow-up questions about those things.
Okay.
kind of song.
And
02:
You've told us what you do initially and I have a
02:
02:
So you said you transpose similar passages into the
Why do you transpose similar passages
02:
10
same key.
into the same
11
key?
12
A.
13
basically comparing apples to apples.
14
melody in the key of G and you see a series of notes that seem
02:
15
similar to the other melody in the key of C, it's really much
02:
16
more efficient to have them both in the same key so you can
02:
17
compare them note-for-note
02:
18
essence, mentally transpose it.
19
Q.
20
same thing in a listening analysis?
21
A.
22
transposition
23
means shifting it to the other key so that both songs you're
02:
24
listening to are in the same key so you can eliminate that
02:
25
unimportant difference between them to focus on what they mayor
02:
02:
02:
Well, it's standard musicological
practice,
so that you're
If you are looking at one
instead of having to mentally -- in

So we first transpose it.
Is there an accepted musical practice for accomplishing
In -- yes.
02:
02:
02:
the
In an audio or listening sense, the
process is sometimes called pitch shifting, which
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9700
74
1
may not have in common.
Q.
step down.
A.
02:
Can you illustrate that for the jury, please.
You have to
02:
02:
02:
Yes.
So I just want to illustrate --
02:
THE COURT:
Just a minute.
02:
Excuse me.
What's the question?
8
9
pending.
There is no question
02:
02:
BY MR. BUSCH:
Q.
Can you illustrate the pitch shifting for us using a

song in two different pitches?
02:
10
recognizable
11
A.
Yes.
12
Q.
Different keys, I should say.
02:
13
A.
You can recognize a song if you sing it in different keys.
02:
14
If you have ever been singing a song, say in church or another
02:
15
place, you may have heard it in another key but it's the same
02:
16
song.
02:
02:
You can recognize a song
I'll show you what I mean.
02:
Thank you.
17
This is Jingle Bells.
18
(Witness plays keyboard.)
19
Here is in the key of D.
20
21
Here is in the key of G.
22
02:
23
Same song, different key.
02:
24
25
Q.
The first key is the key of C.
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
Thank you.
Do you understand why transposing
02:
slash pitch shifting
02:

#:9701
75
02:
into the same key is an accepted practice?
A.
Yes.
Q.
You know that Ms. Sandy Wilbur has been retained by the
Thicke parties as their musical consultant
correct?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
transposing
A.
Yes, I think she does.
02:
10
Q.
And in this case, you know she has submitted audio
02:
11
examples; correct?
12
A.
Yes.
13
Q.
Okay.
14
A.
Oh, yes, I think she did.
02:
15
Q.
Okay.
How do you know that Ms. Wilbur agrees that
02:
16
transposing
is an accepted musicological
02:
17
A.
18
it in her various reports.
19
anyone with serious musical education.
20
Q.
Were you present at her deposition?
02:
21
A.
Yes.
02:
22
Q.
Did you hear her say that it was at her deposition?
02:
23
A.
I believe I did.
02:
24
Q.
Okay.
02:
25
02:
Well, it's part of my training, but, yes.
02:
02:
in this case;
02:
02:
Do you know whether she agrees with you that
02:
is an accepted musicological
02:
practice or technique?
02:
02:
02:
Did she pitch shift in those audio examples?
technique?
Well, I mean, she did it -- she did it in this case.
I saw
But it is standard practice for
Now, after you transpose or pitch shift, what is your
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9702
76
02:
next step in your methodology?
A.
determine where -- if there is similarity, what kind of
02:
similarity it is and where it is in the music.
So, for example,
02:
if I hear a melody like Jingle Bells that I just played for you,
02:
if I hear a melody which is a combination
02:
that a melody is a combination
you heard and how long each tone is held, which is called
02:
duration or rhythm.
02:
Well, the -- the most important thing at that point is to
-- I should define
of tones, which is the notes that
So that those two properties,
the tone and
02:
02:
10
the rhythm is what makes up a melody, and a series of them are
02:
11
what make up an entire melody.
02:
12
pitches and rhythms in succession.
13
Jingle Bells, for example.
It's a series of individual

And that's how you recognize
02:
So if I feel that there is a recognizable
14
02:
similarity
15
between two works, it's -- it would be my responsibility
16
start comparing them, note-for-note
17
of similar notes.
18
Q.
19
exclude any portion of the melodies you are comparing?
20
A.
21
most important notes in a melody and which are less important.
02:
22
There's a kind of hierarchy
02:
23
notes we often refer to as target notes.
24
notes.
25
sentence was going to the store and there was some other words
Okay.
Yes.
to
02:
and see if there is a series
02:
02:
02:
And in your methodology,
is there a step where you
Part of my training is to understand what are the
in music.
So the most important

They're the main
If you were reading a sentence and the main idea of the
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9703
77
1
that weren't important, you could highlight the main words.
say you say John and Joe went to the store to buy milk, you
02:
know, you might highlight the names, the store, and milk but
02:
maybe not all the to the and all the other words.
02:
Well, in music it's similar.
So
There are connecting
02:
02:
notes that are less important and then there are what we call
02:
target notes which are the main notes.
02:
And it's important for me to know the difference when
02:
02:
I analyze and compare music.

And if there are intervening notes between the target
02:
10
Q.
11
notes, what has your training taught you to do?
12
A.
13
target notes are similar, then I still would consider that
02:
14
possibly quite similar, depending on a lot of other factors.
02:
15
Q.
16
comparing works with respect to the register?
17
A.
18
how high or low something is.
19
a concert and you hear a soprano singing, that's a high
02:
20
register.
02:
Oh, again, I look at them but if they differ and all the
Okay.
Yes.
Any other examples of standard methodology
Register is another consideration.
used in
Register means
For example, if you're sitting at
02:
But the same song could be recognizable
02:
02:
02:
02:
singing, that's a low register.
23
02:
02:
If you hear a person with a very low voice like a bass
21
22
02:
in either
24
register.
If you heard Jingle Bells sung by a woman with a very
25
high voice or Jingle Bells sung by a man with a very low voice,
02:
02:
02:

#:9704
78
1
as long as it had the same melody and the same words, you would
02:
know it was Jingle Bells.
02:
learn mostly to disregard.
Q.
'5
what you mean when you say you were trained to disregard
02:
extraneous or irrelevant differences?
02:
A.
learning to disregard unimportant musical elements and focusing
02:
on the most important one would -- the experience of a person
02:
10
who's not necessarily musically
02:
11
experience as when you're driving down a road which being in
02:
12
California,
02:
13
or later.
14
car in front of you and avoid a lot of extraneous information,
02:
15
whether you're driving past buildings or trees or other kinds of
02:
16
distractions.
02:
17
elements that keep you safe and your car moving through the
02:
18
street.
02:
Okay.
So register is something that we
02:
Can you explain or provide any other examples of
Oh, yes.
Driver or --
Well, the -- the -- thank you.
The process of
trained but it's the same
of course, everybody here has that experience
sooner
You learn how to focus on where you're going and the
You have to focus on your direction and the other
So that's similar in music in the sense that there is
19
02:
02:
02:
02:
20
a lot of extraneous information that somebody like myself is
02:
21
trained to isolate the important information and separate a lot
02:
22
of distractions
02:
23
Q.
24
important similarities
25
differences?
Okay.
away.
Have you also been trained about how to focus on

and place less significance on minor
02:
02:
02:

#:9705
79
Yes.
Another example I would give you that's more visual
02:
A.
and less musical would be if you were comparing two paintings
02:
and say one painting had a unicorn --
02:
MR. MILLER:
4
5
musicology
Objection,
your Honor.
This is not
02:
02:
at this point.
THE COURT:
Sustained.
02:
Let's move on, please.
02:
02:
BY MR. BUSCH:
Q.
Are you also trained on how to assess the importance of
02:
02:
10
elements to each work?
11
A.
12
Again, it goes back to evaluating the music.
13
material between two musical works important to either work or
02:
14
less important to either work.
02:
15
identity without that -- without that similar material
16
And that becomes important.
17
Yes.
In music, there's a hierarchy of importance
in a way.
Is the similar
Would either work have its own

or not.
02:
02:
02:
02:
So as I go through an analysis, if I say, well, the
02:
18
similar -- similarities between these two songs is the main
02:
19
theme of the song, is what we call the hook, that would have a
02:
20
high -- a high importance.
02:
21
between them is one note that occurs, you know, every 25 bars,
02:
22
one time alone and nothing else, we might think of that as a
02:
23
lower similarity.
02:
24
25
If we say, well, the similarity
So there's a kind of prioritizing

process that leads to an evaluation.
that occurs in the
02:
02:

#:9706
80
All right.
So when you do the evaluation, when you have
02:
Q.
found two components that are very similar to themselves, what
02:
do you do to evaluate it further?
02:
A.
Well, so -- I mean, going back to what I said before, we do
02:
transcribe and all, but there's a process, a series of questions
02:
we ask ourselves when we're doing this kind of analysis.
02:
these are the criteria that enable us to evaluate.
02:
So first the question is do they sound -- when
And
02:
listening to the music, if we're given recordings to do so, do
10
they sound similar.
11
similar.
If so, where in each piece do they sound
02:
02:
Once that's been determined, then there's a question
12
13
as to how important each of these elements is to each song.
14
there are various levels of importance.
And
02:
02:
02:
For example, does it repeat often throughout a song or
15
02:
Is it distinctive within the song and
02:
16
is it heard only once.
17
really stands out as an unusual or seemingly original
02:
18
characteristic
02:
or not.
And finally, there are questions about whether or not,
19
02:
02:
20
say, the earlier song that feels the later song copied, is the
02:
21
material pretty original and pretty distinctive within that
02:
22
earlier song or is it likely that that earlier song was only
02:
23
using common elements or not.
02:
And so that
24
25
analysis.
all of those considerations
go into the
02:
02:

#:9707
81
1
Q.
Do you compare the scale degrees in the two melodies?
02:
A.
Yes, we do.
02:
Q.
If it's a harmony, do you compare the chords?
02:
A.
We compare the chords, which is another way of describing
02:
the word harmony.
rhythms.
Q.
Do you compare the organization
A.
Yes.
And music, just like any other work of art, is designed in a
02:
series of sections.
02:
10
We compare the structure.
We compare
Really all the musical properties.
When -- organization
of the two works?
is another word for structure.
You could think of it as sort of like chapters in a
11
12
book.
So in music -- musical terms, you may have the first
13
section might be the introduction
14
instruments playing in very popular songs.
that you usually hear the
And then there will be a section often that's called
15
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
16
the verse, which is more or less telling the story of the song,
02:
17
and the words change as the story develops within the song.
02:
And then you'll have a section called the chorus or
18
19
refrain, which is the section that often repeats.

So that section often comes back after the second
20
02:
02:
02:
21
verse, tells more of the story where the words change again but
02:
22
the melodies
02:
23
again.
24
25
stay the same and you come back to the chorus
02:
So in Jingle Bells, for example, the chorus would be

the words Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells, jingle all the way, and
02:
02:

#:9708
82
1
the verse
would
So most
2
3
these
-- most
alternating
But
if there
element
that
we look
for in the
unusual
characteristic.
Q.
stands
similarity
out
again,
common
lyric
12
series
or an unusual
what
words,
do you
way
the
15
because
it's
not
16
on, how
long
is that
17
part
of the
comparison
18
Q.
Okay.
When
19
should
20
A.
21
music
22
song
or in the musical
piece
23
what
you
form.
where
music
just
hear
the
of them
is something
have
02:
that
any
similar
--
songs
02:
is it a
or is there
02:
02:
is used.
lyric
lyrics
is set in music.
are married
note
sung,
how
is it sung,
note
In
is the
lyric
etc.
sung
That's
look
all
over
02:
02:
02:
at doing
your
at outgrowths
outgrowth in music
a varied
02:
02:
in essence
process.
looking
02:
02:
at then?
other
the
and
or detect
what
say you have
same melody
02:
but
do you also
call
that
lyric
you are
term
songs,
02:
the
It -- it causes
24
25
in songs,
The
02:
or structural
a prioritizing,
lyric
for the way
other
Yes.
section
look
in many
14
say,
have
02:
Do both
-- there's
is shown
So we look
13
nature
all.
-- if you denote
there
11
that
song.
of a popular
02:
in lyrics,
A.
not
in one of the
other
10
but
works
is an unusual
similarity
Well,
musical
sections
If the
02:
dashing through the snow.
be
a melody
that
and then
analysis,
02:
of melodies?
describes
you hear
later
02:
a piece
earlier
you hear
02:
of
02:
in the
it but
02:
in
02:
interest
in the music.
and over
again.
So most
It's boring
composers
to
02:
02:

#:9709
83
1
change -- change it a little bit to make it interesting,
because they've added new words, they need to have it lengthened
02:
a little bit.
02:
added.
that is called development.
Q.
Can you show an example of that on the keyboard?
02:
A.
Yes.
02:
Q.
Do Beethoven's
So it's the same melody but with some extra notes
So you hear this all the time.
It's -- another form of
02:
02:
02:
02:
5th.
THE COURT:
or
Just a minute.
02:
So if you could, please, Miss Finell, demonstrate the
02:
10
Q.
11
outgrowth of a melody throughout a song?
12
A.
13
song Happy Birthday, the first phrase you all know is Happy
02:
14
Birthday.
02:
15
words but the melody that is singing those words so .
02:
16
(Whereupon the piano was played.)
02:
17
The next phrase is an outgrowth of that.
18
Okay.
02:
So I'll show this with Happy Birthday.
And that's the first phrase.
So with the
Think of not just the
The melody
02:
02:
02:
changes but it goes up a little bit.
19
(Whereupon the piano was played.)
20
The third phrase is --
02:
21
MR. MILLER:
02:
22
24
25
Your Honor, I'm going to object because
there is no question and format here.

THE COURT:
23
question?
BY MR. BUSCH:
02:
I agree.
I thought we said
I understand.
So what's the
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9710
84
The question is can you show in the song Happy Birthday how
Q.
there is an outgrowth throughout the song.

THE COURT:
Excuse me.
a question, just play rather than speak and play.
answered the question.
THE WITNESS:
THE COURT:
02:
02:
Okay.
02:
Thank you.
So at this point please just
02:
02:
THE WITNESS:
Okay.
I will play all three phrases in
02:
02:
a row then?
THE COURT:
12
(Whereupon, the witness plays the piano.)
14
02:
Do you understand?
11
13
Once you have
play.
9
10
02:
Ms. Finell, when you are asked
02:
02:
Thank you.
02:
BY MR. BUSCH:
02:
Okay.
02:
Q.
Thank you.
So what did we just hear in those three phrases that
15
02:
02:
16
you just played?
17
A.
18
would call the first version of it since it came first.
19
you were studying this song, that would be the first
20
first experience with the tune for Happy Birthday as well as the
02:
21
words.
02:
22
Well, so for Happy Birthday, the first phrase is what you

So if
your
The next -- the next phrase right after it is the same
23
thing but you go up one note, so first it's Happy birthday
to
24
you, the second phrase is the same words, Happy birthday
25
but it goes up just for variety, and that's what I call variant
to you,
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9711
85
1
02:
or outgrowth.
The next
2
3
insert
happy -- etc.,
the person's
heard
in the
changing
Q.
the material
10
material
11
A.
first
12
it helps
13
second
14
determine
15
from
16
likely
And
18
the
19
musicology,
Happy birthday
Why
it's
or not
work
which
music
24
when
issues
said
first
02:
it's
02:
bit,
the distinctiveness
I should
say rather
the
second
or if it's
are other
Your
work
just
of
of the
02:
distinctive,
whether
than
could
so common
or not
the
decide -- but
have
that
then
been
copied
it would
be
I'm going
I thought
to move
the expertise
to strike
because
copy.
Go ahead.
Finell,
I'm not
02:
02:
02:
02:
was
02:
02:
in
02:
is different.
Ms.
02:
02:
sources.
Honor,
02:
02:
if it's
decide
to strike
23
02:
you
a little
02:
02:
analysis?
because
So I'm going
and understand,
earlier
in your
It depends
22
that
is the distinctiveness
THE COURT:
copied.
growing
the analyst
to copying.
21
to
to you.
on the melody
said
important
MILLER:
references
you
very
there
MR.
17
20
you
-- determine,
first
you want
02:
or important
whether
that
but
because
lengthening.
you -- it helps
work
the
phrase,
longer
Happy birthday, dear Suzie,
so it's
it's built
is copied.
it's
even
it ends
I think
copied
Well,
name,
time
or it's
Okay.
it gets
and then
So each
25
one,
on what
the
please
sure
was meant
response,
just
what
limit
reask
your
you meant
by the word
the question
responses
by the word
to
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9712
86
1
02:
BY MR. BUSCH:
When I asked about copy, I'm talking about copying
Q.
something musically,
not as a matter of law.
Do you understand
02:
02:
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
you are going to be using that phrase?
02:
that?
So -- and when you used that phrase, is that the way
MR. MILLER:
Your Honor, I object.
I don't know what
11
I think you need to ask a question about comparing and
I agree.
I don't either.
02:
02:
BY MR. BUSCH:
Well, why do you look at the distinctiveness
Q.
15
material?
02:
02:
not copying.
14
02:
02:
that means.
THE COURT:
13
02:
02:
10
12
02:
of the
Just don't use the word copying, I guess.
16
THE COURT:
Excuse me.
17
MR. BUSCH:
Okay.
Just pose questions.
02:
02:
02:
02:
18
Q.
Why do you look at the distinctiveness
19
A.
Well, it's part of the evaluation process.
20
being asked to compare two pieces of music, I need to understand
02:
21
how -- where the music came from, in essence, you know, and part
02:
22
of that is understanding
02:
23
preceded it.
24
Q.
25
you -- that you've defined as breaking the rules?
Okay.
of the material?
So if -- if I'm
the music literature that may have
And is there -- is there something you look at where
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9713
87
Yes.
That's one of the criteria we use in analyzing music
02:
A.
and determining whether or not one piece of music was influenced
02:
by another.
02:
In this way, music like most art forms has rules, if
02:
you will, so as a music student, you learn that there are many
02:
keys, there are a number of keys in what we think of as western
02:
music in our culture, and each key has certain notes in it.
02:
So -- and a broken rule is a note that's not in the
8
9
key.
Say if you have a -- it's hard to describe without the
02:
02:
10
keyboard in front of me but if you have a C scale, that's all
02:
11
the white notes, one right next to another.
02:
12
no sharps or flats.
13
a C scale, which would mean it would be the black note between
14
the F and the G, that's what is a broken
15
way.
A C scale, it has
So if you all of a sudden had an F sharp in
a broken rule in a
It's called a non-scale tone.

So if two pieces of music have something unusual like
16
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
17
that that doesn't belong in the scale or doesn't belong in the
02:
18
harmony or something else, and it kind of stands out and if you
02:
19
find that the other piece of music also has that, that is enough
02:
20
of a red flag to look at.
02:
21
Q.
22
that you look in your analysis to determine whether you believe
02:
23
the material
02:
24
in the second
25
Okay.
And I believe one of the last things you said was
in the first piece which was alleged to be copied
MR. MILLER:
02:
02:
Objection.
02:

#:9714
88
THE COURT:
Sustained.
Restate the question.
02:
BY MR. BUSCH:
All right.
02:
Whether the material
in the first piece that is
Q.
being compared to the second piece was original; is that right?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And are you -- do you consider yourself very familiar with
prior art?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Okay.
02:
02:
02:
That's right.
02:
02:
02:
And when you're asked to look at that, comparing two
02:
10
pieces of work, can you tell us how you go about comparing work
02:
11
for prior art or originality?
02:
12
A.
13
and the scope of the assignment but in -- basically,
14
trying to determine whether or not a particular musical property
02:
15
existed before, I have large -- you know, large files of prior
02:
16
art that I would investigate and compare to determine if a
02:
17
musical work is original in that particular
02:
18
example.
19
considered.
20
composers.
21
22
23
24
25
Well, I mean, it depends on the nature of the assignment

if I am
element, for
Or is it public domain, which is another element to be

How old is it, how long has it been used by other
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
MR. BUSCH:
Your Honor, I'm going now into the Blurred
Lines, Got to Give it Up.

THE COURT:
It's 2:25.
Keep going.
We will stop in about five,
02:
02:
02:
ten minutes.
MR. BUSCH:
02:
Okay.
Thank you.
02:

#:9715
89
Were
you
retained
Q.
whether
Up?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And
explained
A.
Yes,
Q.
And
it Up, did anything
you believed
by the Gayes
did
you
employ
in your
the
same methodology
consideration
02:
upon
Yes.
first
When
strike
13
the way
through
I first
you
the bass
the
about
and
answer.
Your
18
evidence
in the case.
question
needs
MR.
BUSCH:
Bass
20
THE
COURT:
That's
21
MR.
BUSCH:
Okay.
listen
23
MR. MILLER:
24
THE
COURT:
but
similarities,
with
the
that
continued
to hear
I'm going
02:
02:
all
similarities.
to object.
02:
02:
This
02:
02:
song.
Disregard
the
to be focused
last
on the
question
and
admissible
02:
02:
02:
19
Did you
I started
I agree.
17
I did hear
keyboard,
Honor,
to the
COURT:
to it,
02:
02:
introduction
the
Your
listening
THE
and
Got to Give
immediately?
listened
song
MR. MILLER:
listened
02:
02:
to Blurred Lines and
instruments,
16
just
of the matter?
listening
12
14
you have
02:
in the beginning,
25
Got to Give it
I did.
particularly
Q.
02:
02:
11
22
about
02:
A.
isn't
an opinion
Blurred Lines copied
that
10
15
to offer
line
You
to the evidence
keyboard
not what
your
is -question
02:
asked.
02:
02:
to the bass
Same
and
line
objection,
and the
your
need
to establish
that's
admissible
keyboard?
02:
Honor.
that
02:
the witness
in this
case
with
has
02:
02:

#:9716
90
1
respect to the songs at issue.
recording that I have described to the jury that's going to be
02:
admitted.
02:
You need to focus on that.

MR. BUSCH:
You have made -- there is a
Okay.
Thank you.
02:
02:
Q.
Did you -- did you create musical examples
did you work
02:
with people to create musical examples of the bass line and the
02:
keyboard, comparing it from Blurred Lines to Got to Give it Up?
02:
A.
Yes, I did.
02:
Q.
Okay.
02:
And what did you note about the bass line and
10
keyboard as reflected in those audio examples?
11
A.
12
used and their individual properties.
13
Q.
14
they are used in their individual properties?
15
A.
16
with one another, both in terms of sharing the chord -- the
02:
17
harmonies that are -- they are using, in terms of filling out
02:
18
the harmonies,
02:
19
keyboard really interlock with one other.
20
such
21
song in the way that they are what you would think of as the
02:
22
rhythmic reference point for all the rest of the song.
02:
They're very similar to one another in both the way they're
02:
02:
02:
And can you explain how they are very similar in the way
Well, the bass line and the keyboard act in a partnership
one completes the other, the bass and the
02:
02:
02:
And their pulse is
02:
they cause a pulse that runs all the way through each
02:
Your Honor, I'm going to object and move
02:
24
to strike on grounds that there is no foundation that either of
02:
25
these elements is part of the copyrighted material.
02:
23
MR. MILLER:

#:9717
91
THE COURT:
I determine
Establish the -- I will rule on this after
if a foundation can be established.
MR. BUSCH:
Okay.
And in reviewing the sheet music, deposit copy lead sheet
02:
02:
02:
02:
Q.
sheet music for Got to Give it Up, is there a reference in there
02:
to the fact that the bass line and keyboard should run
02:
throughout
02:
A.
Yes, there is.
02:
Q.
Okay.
02:
10
A.
The reference at the end of the first eight bars of the
11
deposit copy is -- it says bass simile which in musical terms
02:
12
means more or less similar base, meaning keep going like this or
02:
13
similarly to this.
02:
14
partnership
15
lead sheet and the rhythms that are indicated -- the lower part
02:
16
of the keyboard, the left hand of the keyboard is basically
02:
17
playing most of the same notes as in the bass line, and the
02:
18
upper part is playing the harmonies as shown on the lead sheet
02:
19
and also rhythmically
02:
20
offbeat nature.
21
Q.
22
the entire recorded composition?
And what is that reference?
with it and expresses the harmonies which are on the
reflects the vocal entrances in its
02:
02:
02:
And
MR. MILLER:
23
address this.
24
sheet music.
25
And the keyboard itself, which works in
02:
Your Honor, I don't know how you want to
There is no foundation that any of this is in the
THE COURT:
02:
02:
02:
Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to stop
02:

#:9718
93
1
2
3
02:
keyboard that is nowhere to be found -THE COURT:
You can cross-examine
on that.
But that's
02:
02:
-- you can cross-examine.

Well, I understand
that.
I guess that
02:
MR. MILLER:
leaves me in the same position
about what's in the Marvin Gaye sound recording before any
02:
foundation has been laid that any of that's in the deposit copy.
02:
I am here now where she's talking
02:
THE COURT:
Well, that needs to be established.
02:
MR. BUSCH:
I will make sure to do that, your Honor.
02:
10
THE COURT:
That has to be established.
02:
11
it's going to be on your clock.
Otherwise
So be focused.
02:
12
MR. BUSCH:
I will.
02:
13
THE COURT:
And -- sorry, go ahead.
02:
14
MR. MILLER:
15
I mean my point is just having Ms. Finell
say it's in the deposit copy is not a foundation.
16
THE COURT:
Well, she's an expert.
17
And you can cross-examine her.
18
deposit copy on cross-examination,
19
cross-examine
If you believe it's not in the

you'll elicit -- you will
MR. MILLER:
21
THE COURT:
I think your experts have different
perspectives
on certain things but I want to be crystal clear on
23
this other matter, so I think I have been.
Okay.
What's the status -- oh, do you have the deposition

transcript portions?
02:
02:
02:
02:
I understand.
22
25
02:
02:
on that.
20
24
She's opining.
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:
02:

#:9719
95
1
BY MR.
DISCUSSED
BUSCH:
YOU ALSO
THE
I DO NOT
DID AN
MR.
PLAYING
CREATION
HOT
"BLURRED
97 IN WHICH
LINES,"
DID YOU
YOU
NOT?
BUSCH:
EXHIBIT
IT'S
NUMBER
VIDEO
11,
41.
I'LL
BE
41-11.
BY MR.
BUSCH:
SO, MR.
10
THE
11
YES.
12
AND
13
INTERVIEWER
14
LINES"
15
YOU
VOICE
THICKE,
IN THAT
DID YOU
HEAR
HE'S
JUST
18
HEARD
THAT.
DID YOU
IN THAT
INTERVIEW
YOU
OR SAID
TO YOU
"GOT
YOU
KING:
TO GIVE
THAT
RECOGNIZE
TO BE YOURS?
HEAR
LIKE
HIM ASK
MR.
YOU
INTERVIEW
ASKED
SOUNDS
16
THAT
THAT
IT UP"
THE
"BLURRED
PART
II?
DID
QUESTION?
OBJECT
TO THE
FORM
OF THE
QUESTION.
REPEATING
THE
COURT:
19
BY MR.
20
21
NOT?
22
YES.
23
YOU AGREED
24
SOUNDS
25
OF
WITH
RECALL.
17
INTERVIEW
SUSTAINED.
BUSCH:
YOU AGREED
LIKE
MR.
"GOT
WITH
THE
INTERVIEWER'S
QUESTION,
WITH
HIS
QUESTION
"BLURRED
TO GIVE
KING:
SAME
IT UP"
THAT
PAR~
OBJECTION.
II?
DID YOU
LINES"

#:9720
103
1
THE COURT:
I'M SORRY,
MR. BUSCH:
YES.
THE COURT:
ANY OBJECTION
THE COURT:
NO OBJECTION.
YOU MAY PLAY THAT.
(VIDEO PLAYED
MR. KING:
IN OPEN COURT)
I DON'T THINK THAT WAS THE WHOLE
CLIP.
11
THE COURT:
12
MR. KING:
13
HAVE CONTEXT,
14
HOW IT WAS DESIGNATED
15
NO.
THAT WAS LINES
I MADE A MISTAKE.
YOU WOULD
12 THROUGH
I BELIEVE
BY COUNSEL
14.
TO
GO ALL THE WAY TO 22, WHICH
IN ADVANCE
THE COURT:
16
IS
TO ME.
JUST A MINUTE.
CAN YOU PLAY THE REST OF THAT THEN --
17
REPLAY
18
12 ON PAGE 31 THROUGH
THAT, PLEASE,
19
MR. BUSCH,
MR. BUSCH:
STARTING
OVER AT LINE
LINE 22.
WE CAN'T PLAY THE VIDEO,
BUT WE
CAN PULL UP THE TRANSCRIPT.
21
22
TO THAT BEING
PLAYED?
MR. KING:
20
12 THROUGH
14?
10
31, LINES
THE COURT:
YOU CAN READ IT.
START ON LINE
12, PLEASE.
23
MR. BUSCH:
24
HONEST
25
QUESTION:
PERSON?
"DO YOU CONSIDER
ANSWER:
DO YOU MAKE
NO.
YOURSELF
AN
THAT'S WHY I'M SEPARATED.
IT A HABIT OF BEING DISHONEST

#:9721
104
1
WHEN YOU GIVE INTERVIEWS?
INTERVIEWS,
RECORDS.
TESTIFY
WHEN
I TELL WHATEVER
QUESTION:
THE COURT:
YOU GIVE THE ANSWER.
MR. BUSCH:
I WANT TO SAY TO HELP SELL
NO, ABSOLUTELY
BEFORE
I APOLOGIZE.
"ANSWER:
CAN WE PLAY THE VIDEO
NO, ABSOLUTELY
NOT.
31, 15 TO 19, CLIP
T-13?
11
THE COURT:
12
MR. KING:
13
MR. BUSCH:
14
NOT."
YOU HAVE TO SAY "ANSWER"
10
I GIVE
YOU SAY THE SAME THING WHEN YOU
TO IN A CASE?
I DO -- WHEN
ANY OBJECTION
TO THAT --
THAT'S THE THING HE JUST READ.

IT'S THE SAME THING,
BUT I WOULD
LIKE TO PLAY THE VIDEO.
15
THE COURT:
THEN PLAY THE ENTIRE
16
MR. BUSCH:
I DON'T HAVE THE LAST TWO LINES.
17
THE COURT:
THEN YOU'VE ALREADY
18
READ IT.
LET'S MOVE ON, PLEASE.
19
20
VIDEO.
IF YOU WANT TO READ -- YOU'RE

ABOUT
21
23
YOU'VE ALREADY
MR. BUSCH:
READ THROUGH
19; CORRECT?
YES.
22
BY MR. BUSCH:
23
24
WHEN YOU GIVE INTERVIEWS,
25
NEED TO SAY TO SELL RECORDS,
SO, MR. THICKE,
TALKING
SINCE YOU STATED A MOMENT

YOU WILL SAY WHATEVER
DID YOU BELIEVE
AGO THAT
YOU
THAT BY

#:9722
105
1
MENTIONING
"GOT
"BLURRED
MARVIN
TO GIVE
GAYE
IT UP,"
MR.
KING:
THE
COURT:
BY MR.
TO SAY WHEN
BUT
YOU
RIGHT?
11
I DID
12
AND
13
YOU
14
IT UP";
15
YES.
16
OKAY.
DID
SAY THAT
SAY
YOU WILL
INTERVIEWS
DID
IN FACT
"BLURRED
LINES"
GIVE
SAY
TO HELP
WHATEVER
SELL
MULTIPLE
TO MARVIN
OF
YOU
NEED
RECORDS;
INTERVIEWS
GAYE'S
"GOT
CLIP
T-11,
WHERE
TO GIVE
CORRECT?
MR.
THICKE'S
BUSCH:
WOULD
TESTIMONY
AT
ANY
YOU
PAGE
21
MR.
KING:
22
THE
COURT:
JUST
23
MR.
BUSCH:
THROUGH
25
RECORDS
THAT.
COURT:
24
SELL
OVERRULED.
THE
20
HELP
TO
IRRELEVANT.
GIVING
YOU
TIED
19
WOULD
LINES"
BUSCH:
10
MR.
THAT
"BLURRED
NOT.
18
TYING
LINES"?
DEFINITELY
17
AND
PLAY
127,
LINE
OBJECTION
7 TO 18.
TO THAT
BEING
PLAYED?
21.
THROUGH
THE
LINE
AGAIN,
21, YOUR
COURT:
ONE
HE CAN'T
END
IT MID-ANSWER.
A MINUTE.
21.
WE'LL
HONOR.
MOMENT,
PLEASE.
PLAY
IT THROUGH

#:9723
106
1
MR. KING:
THE COURT:
MR. KING:
ON ALL THE WAY.
I WOULD PLAY IT THROUGH

JUST A MINUTE.
ACTUALLY,
THE COURT:
MR. KING:
TO END OF PAGE 128, LINE 25.
10
JUST A MOMENT,
PLEASE.
I'M SORRY, WE WOULD GO ALL THE WAY
THE COURT:
IT'S EITHER 21 OR IT GOES
I'M NOT SURE WHERE YOU WOULD STOP IT.
24.
JUST A MOMENT.
YOU CAN PLAY 127, LINE 7, THROUGH LINE

21.
11
MR. BUSCH:
12
THANK YOU.
(VIDEO PLAYED IN OPEN COURT)
13
BY MR. BUSCH:
14
15
THAT YOU RESPONDED
16
"BLURRED LINES" WAS LIKE "GOT TO GIVE IT UP" PART II,
17
THE INTERVIEWER
SO, MR. THICKE, JUST TO BE CLEAR, IN THAT INTERVIEW

TO AND SAID, YEAH, YOU AGREED THAT
DIDN'T ASK YOU ABOUT ANY ERA, DID HE?
18
MR. KING:
19
THE COURT:
20
BY MR. BUSCH:
21
22
QUESTION?
25
THE CLIP SPEAKS --
SUSTAINED.
DID YOU MENTION AN ERA IN RESPONSE TO THAT
23
24
OBJECTION.
THE COURT:
YOU'RE NOW REFERRING
MR. BUSCH:
YES.
INTERVIEW?
TO THE

#:9724
107
1
THE COURT:
THAT'S HEARSAY.
IF YOU WANT TO SHOW THE INTERVIEW,
ASKING WHAT ANOTHER
4
5
LET'S MOVE ON.
THAT'S FINE.
YOU'RE
DOCUMENT SAYS, SO --
MR. BUSCH:
I'M ASKING HIM ABOUT HIS
THE COURT:
THEN READ THE TESTIMONY.
TESTIMONY.
6
7
BY MR. BUSCH:
INTERVIEWS
WAS THERE ANY REFERENCE
TO ANY ERA IN ANY OF THE
THAT YOU GAVE WHEN YOU MENTIONED
"GOT TO
10
GIVE IT UP" AND "BLURRED LINES," OR WAS IT SIMPLY A
11
REFERENCE
12
13
THE FEELING AND THE ERA IS THE PHRASE I MOSTLY USED.
14
ARE YOU CERTAIN ABOUT THAT?
15
YES.
16
IT'S NOT TRUE THEN, IN THE INTERVIEWS
17
SHOWN YOU, THAT YOU DID NOT MENTION THE ERA ONCE?
18
TO "GOT TO GIVE IT UP"?
IT WAS -- I MENTIONED
THE ERA MOST OF THE TIME.
THAT'S NOT TRUE.
19
MR. KING:
20
THE COURT:
SUSTAINED.
21
MR. BUSCH:
PLAY EXHIBIT 41-2A.
22
INTERVIEW
23
OBJECTION.
ARGUMENTATIVE.
IT'S HIS
WITH OPRAH.
24
25
THAT I HAVE
MR. BUSCH:
EXHIBIT
41, 2C.
AND THERE'S A SECOND PART TO THIS

#:9725
108
1
2
BY MR.
BUSCH:
OF YOUR
NO.
SO WHAT
IS THAT
TRUE
THAT
GAYE
YOU
SAID
MR.
KING:
THE
COURT:
BY MR.
Q
AND
DO YOU
11
THAT
YOU
GAVE
12
YES,
13
DO YOU
14
IN ANY
15
LANGUAGE
THAT
16
PHARRELL
TO CREATE
17
CAN
YOU
18
I'LL
TO OPRAH
WAS
OBJECTION.
KNOW
WAS
AFTER
IT WAS,
KNOW
OF THE
WHETHER
THIS
THAT
WHETHER
BEFORE
INTERVIEWS
YOU
USED
REPEAT
YOU
IN THAT
A SONG
THE
WITH
OPRAH
FILED?
BUSCH:
I'D LIKE
THICKE'S
24
MR.
KING:
25
THE
COURT:
YOU
USED
THAT
WAS
THE
THAT
FILED
SAME
YOU
TOLD
FEEL?
PLEASE?
IT.
MR.
COURT:
LAWSUIT
INTERVIEW,
QUESTION,
20
THE
THIS
GAVE,
PLEASE
MR.
WAS
WITH
I BELIEVE.
WITHDRAW
11 FROM
INTERVIEW
LAWSUIT
COURT:
23
A LIE?
SUSTAINED.
THE
22
OR HALF
ARGUMENTATIVE.
19
TO
ALL
BUSCH:
10
21
INSPIRES
MUSIC?
MARVIN
PROCEED.
TO PLAY
DEPOSITION
ANY
OBJECTION
PAGE
TESTIMONY.
TO THAT
PLAYED?
NO OBJECTION.
YOU
MAY
PLAY
142,
THAT.
BEING
LINE

#:9726
109
2
3
PLAY CLIP T-26, PAGE 149, LINE 8
THE COURT:
ANY OBJECTION
TO 15.
4
5
MR. BUSCH:
PLAYED?
MR. KING:
THE COURT:
NO OBJECTION.
YOU MAY PLAY THAT.
TO THAT BEING
BY MR. BUSCH:
10
OKAY.
11
YES.
12
OKAY.
13
AND IN YOUR DEPOSITION
14
DEPOSED IN THIS CASE, BUT AFTER THIS CASE WAS FILED,
15
YOU AND YOUR LAWYERS SUBMITTED ANSWERS TO WRITTEN
16
QUESTIONS
17
IN ADDITION
TESTIMONY,
THAT YOU GAVE
BEFORE YOU WERE
THAT WE SERVED ON YOU; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
MR. BUSCH:
CAN YOU PULL UP TAB 57, EXHIBIT
33?
20
GO TO THE SIGNATURE
21
BY MR. BUSCH:
22
23
DEPOSITION,
24
25
TO YOUR INTERVIEWS
YES.
18
19
YOU JUST HEARD YOUR TESTIMONY?
PAGE.
AND I ASKED YOU ABOUT THIS DOCUMENT
IN YOUR
DID I NOT?
YES.
EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE A QUICK

#:9727
136
1
inflections
of people,
doing
Q.
Okay.
And,
Mr. Williams,
with
XXL;
isn't
A.
Yes,
sir.
Q.
Okay.
follows:
when
you're
10
what he would
11
with pentatonic
12
mean
that's
to put on the board
I want
that
what
you're
to just
Exhibit
No.
25.
show you,
you did an interview
with XXL,
you stated
correct?
in your
interview
to pretend
that I was Marvin
do had he went down
to Nashville
as
Gaye and
and did a record
harmonies.
You did say that;
13
A.
Yes.
14
what
you -- what
15
Sometimes
16
you.
17
Q.
18
trying
19
creating
20
after
21
A.
22
interpretation
23
preconceived
24
those
25
like
I was trying
it doesn't
in it.
I would
And
but
Yes.
That's
summary,
your work
we don't
know when
Blurred
that
when
you're
is like and what
So is it your testimony
to pretend
correct?
we're
that
you're
like
doing.
in it, just to clarify
it's not true
you were Marvin
Lines?
summarizing
that
Gaye when
It was something
that
for
you were
you were
you realized
the fact?
Yes.
It was
well,
of my work
notion
no.
after
What
you're
I had done
reading
it.
to go into it and I wasn't
is my
But it wasn't
thinking
about
things.
As musicians,
we look back
at our work
and we give a

#:9728
137
1
description.
Sometimes
it and sometimes
the truth.
Q.
not go into the studio
feel like or to sound
A.
To sound
Q.
Okay.
A.
Or Marvin
10
Q.
You did not go into
11
anything
12
Gaye;
13
A.
No,
14
Q.
Okay.
15
Marvin
Gaye's
-- or it's
16
Marvin
Gaye's
Got to Give
17
at any time
18
A.
Not during
19
Q.
Okay.
Okay.
we look back
And,
and see what
Mr. Williams,
like
with
doing
when
comes
out.
it's your position
the intention
like Marvin
Got
to Give
Gaye;
we're
That's
that
of making
in
you did
anything
to
correct?
it Up.
You did not go into the studio

Gaye.
to feel like
Got
the studio
to Give
with
the intention
it Up or to sound
of making
like Marvin
correct?
sir.
I would
like
to play
your
21
(Whereupon,
-- yes.
It's your
of Blurred
the creation,
I'm going
-- and it's your
it Up did not cross
in the creation
20
22
we know what we're
to play
Lines;
testimony
testimony
your mind
that
that
at all
correct?
no, sir.
Exhibit
the video
390.
was played.)
BY MR. BUSCH:
Okay.
23
Q.
24
Robin
25
during
Thicke
Mr. Williams,
did not have
the creation
it is your
testimony
any conversations
of Blurred
Lines
that
you and
whatsoever
in which
he asked
before
you to
or

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Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 1 of 75 Page ID

Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 2 of 75 Page ID

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA

THE HONORABLE JOHN A. KRONSTADT

UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE PRESIDING

Pharrell Williams, et al.,

Bridgeport Music, Inc., et al.,

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS

Los Angeles, California

Wednesday, March 4, 2015

Pamela A. Batalo, CSR, FCRR, RMR

Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 3 of 75 Page ID

marketing plan; correct?

Radio appearances by Mr. Thicke were part of the marketing

Print interviews by Mr. Thicke were part of the marketing

appearances by Mr. Thicke were part of the

Pitching blogs to report on Blurred Lines was part of the

marketing plan; correct?

And I believe you told me that a label representative

typically attended those interviews that Mr. Thicke attended;

Typically they attend TV appearances

agree that a consistent message

important in promoting a release; correct?

And the artist's interview talking points are an important

part of the marketing

and radio interviews.

And in doing interviews and promoting a song, you

I believe they're important, but we don't dictate what the

Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 4 of 75 Page ID

(AUDIO PLAYED IN OPEN COURT)

(AUDIO PLAYED IN OPEN COURT)

Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 5 of 75 Page ID

for you about

Now we are going

to the -- from Blurred Lines to okay, now he was close.

And now the same

for but you're

But the other

one only has a different

for you from

Got to Give it Up, the

in dancin' lady and

five in okay, now he was close.

that the first

to Give it Up, dancin' lady.

Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 6 of 75 Page ID

not to call Mr. Williams

And Now we're

one, we are going

so you can hear

You may play

Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 7 of 75 Page ID

But that doesn't

the same thing.

to talk to you about

the bass melody,

the one from

the two bass

it Up and the one from Blurred

jury Mr. Williams'

Case 2:13-cv-06004-JAK-AGR Document 347-1 Filed 03/17/15 Page 8 of 75 Page ID