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Civil Rights Oral History Project

Interview with Harold and Vickie Remund


Date of Interview: November 14, 2015; Midway, Utah
Interviewer: Camari Remund
Transcriber: Camari Remund
Camari: Saturday the 14th 2015. Lets start with a general overview. When you think back to the
civil rights movement in your life, what is the first thing that comes to mind?
Vickie: I was very little when this was happening. Probably like 6 or 7 years old. Most of my
experience was little pieces on the news that my grandparents or parents would be listening to or
watching. I didnt really have an opinion about any of it. I was little and lived in a small town. I
had never really even seen a black person so I was pretty nave about the whole thing.
Camari: Where did you grow up?
Vickie: Moab, Utah a little town in south eastern Utah.
Camari: That is pretty far removed from the South and you werent really close to it but what
were the opinions of the adults around you at the time? What did they think of the civil rights
movement?
Vickie: I remember we would talk about blacks mostly because I had become very excited about
black recorded artists I would listen to and thought it was really fun and neat and we would talk
about them. I felt that little things that mostly the men in my family, my dad and my grandpa,
would say little things about blacks like Dont you ever think of dating one or If you ever
brought one home to this house and it wasnt mean. They were always being light and we
would joke about it and I would challenge them a bit because I had a big crust on Michael
Jackson. So there was a little bit of a ton but looking back on it I think they were just as ignorant
as I was because they had been raised in the same situation I was raised in: surrounded by white
people in a small community.
Camari: Who were some of the other black musical artists you were interested in?
Vickie: Obviously the Beatles were really big when I was in the 4th grade, and obviously they
arent African American. But mostly Michael Jackson and the Jackson 5 that was the biggie.
Diana Ross when I was in junior high. And often it was the music that I would listen to and find
out later that it was a black artist that had sung it. We didnt have the media exposure that we
have now. And the big medium used to introduce new artists to the world was American
Bandstand on Saturday mornings or the Ed Sullivan Show on Sunday. We were just really
sheltered to all of the things that were going on. We talked about it a little in school but I never
remember it being a big deal. I was just worried about getting a swing at recess because it didnt
affect my life.

Camari: Do you remember any specific news coverage of an event during the civil rights
movement: newspaper, pictures, television?
Vickie: I remember my first real memory of that whole thing was a little removed from it. I came
home from school in first grade and my mom was crying and John F. Kennedy had been
assassinated. I realized something bad had happened because my mom was really sad and it was
soon after that that I became more aware of certain things through the news. Martin Luther King
was a black man that was trying to help people peacefully become more open to a lot of the
things that were going on in the United States that werent good as far as his people, but really all
people. So I remember very vaguely him being assassinated and I dont remember the same
response from my mom but I do remember it being mentioned in school and it was very brief.
Camari: Why was your mom so upset over JFKs assassination?
Vickie: I think that she loved the Kennedy family and I am not really sure why. While growing
up we never really talked about stuff like that. He was obviously the president and she was
young, in her 20s. I dont know if the media we got was just really positive about him and his
family and what a good man he was. She just seemed to really really like the family. Not really
sure why. She was just really sad. Maybe it was the way that he died and that he was so young
and he had a little family and maybe she related to that.
Camari: We talked about how you were really sheltered. So besides African American musical
artist when was your first exposure of actually being around an African American person?
Vickie: I think that there were probably a couple of times while living in my little community. I
remember exchange students coming and going but I dont remember them ever being African
American or from other African nations. I remember maybe some Iranians. My biggest main
exposure was probably my first years of college when I had the opportunity to travel to
Washington D.C. which was a really dramatic exposure because there were blacks everywhere
and I was a little afraid and intimidated. I had never really been around them before. The way
their hair was, they just looked so different and their culture seemed so different from what I was
exposed to. And it wasnt that I really thought they were bad people. It was just extremely
different. It probably would have been the same if I had gone to Japan and was in that culture. I
had just been so sheltered from it and hadnt been exposed to it. I was just shocked and a little
afraid.
Camari: Has your opinion or your view changed since that moment in Washington D.C.?
Vickie: I think so. That was my first big exposure. Going to college gives you a lot more
exposure to those things. You have to think about it a little bit more and your mind starts to get
opened to different sides of the story. I remember thinking as I looked back on my youth that it
was right for my dad and grandpa and other adults in my life to have that opinion of blacks. I
remember becoming friends with them through college and other things that you are involved in
and you start to realize that they are just like us. They are people just like us and they have the
same kinds of dreams and hops that we have. I am grateful for that opportunity to have my mind
broadened a bit so that I could see that that attitude was wrong. It wasnt good.

Camari: Where do you think your dad and grandpa, if they were as sheltered as you were, where
were their opinions coming from?
Vickie: Probably just their own families or a very limited exposure to the news and other
peoples opinions. I really think that, my dad especially, was a very kind hearted person and
really cared about the under-dog and those that were struggling. He had to work hard all his life.
I would think that if he had been around them a little more that they might have become some of
his very best friends. I cant imagine that deep in his heart he was really a prejudice person.
Ignorance and not knowing any better. They just went along with what other people were saying.
Camari: Your dad loved sports if I understand correctly. Do you remember seeing African
American athletes on television? Because I remember you expressing at one point that you
would bond with your dad watching sports on television.
Vickie: You know what I did. And that happened when I was really young dad loved football and
basketball and baseball and we watched a lot of that. And maybe that is what really started to
change his outlook. I dont remember there ever being racist comments when we would watch
sports together. That might have been the positive exposure that blacks have an important role in
life just like anybody. They can excel in life just like anybody else and maybe that changed his
opinions because I dont feel like he showed that same prejudice as he and I got older.
Camari: Any specific athletes you remember?
Vickie: O.J. Simpson was big. He was big time when I was little. He was really talented.
Camari: What year was this?
Vickie: I cant remember but he played for the Buffalo Bills and I just remember he was really
good. Junior high maybe? Obviously lots of black basketball players during those years as well.
Lou Al Sinders. Magic Johnson. People that were very talented and made the sport really fun to
watch. They brought a lot and I think it helped lots of people see them differently.
Camari: Do you have any other recollections, besides his assassination, about Martin Luther
King?
Vickie: No I dont. I was pretty little. It was a long way away from my little town. The adults in
my life may have been trying to protect us. It was a long way away and I think now little
children their parents talk to them about things because they know they are going to be exposed
to it. But in those days we were sheltered and now exposed to the media they way you are.
Camari: How do you remember the reception being on the Ed Sullivan Show of these African
American music artists and what was the reception your friends and family had?
Vickie: Positive. I mean how could you not love what they were doing. They were incredible.
They were so talented. Michael Jackson was a big deal. He was pretty much the same age I was.
He was really talented and very charismatic. He seemed really happy and he had these brothers.
We thought they were really attractive and talented. It was positive. I never really remember ever
hearing negative.

Camari: When you got married, do you remember there being any talk about race or African
Americans with the family you married into, the Remunds?
Vickie:I am not going to answer that.
Camari: You said you would be straight forward with me. Just to clarify, the Remunds are from
Midway Utah which is in Northern Utah. You were born in Southern Utah and the Remunds
were from Northern Utah. They were farmers and you married the youngest of their five
children. So there were three older sons and a daughter. What was the tone from that side of the
family?
Vickie: I feel like there was a little bit of prejudice there. Little comments that would be made. It
takes me back to a roommate I had in college. Her family was from the South. Ancestors and she
was a big fan of the book Gone with the Wind. But she was very sympathetic to the Sotherns
plight.
Camari: The white Sotherns plight.
Vickie: Yes. Yes the white Sotherns plight. Because she had family members that had lived
during that time period in the south and had been plantation owners. She was very sympathetic to
them trying to preserve what they had worked so hard to build or what they had others work so
hard to build for them. However, you want to say it. I remember talking to her about it and
wondering how that didnt seem wrong to her. And she just didnt see that. She saw her version
of the story. I think that deep inside she realized it was wrong but she was sympathetic to the
reasons behind what the whites were doing. So I think based on where you are in your life and
what you are exposed to, that is where your opinions come from. And I think that was how it was
with the Remund family. They were very religious and sometimes a little too zealous in their
religious beliefs. Very literal. The whole bible attitude about blacks and colored people and the
curse and all that stuff that is just a little hard to understand. We just have to be trusting that we
dont understand everything. But sometimes I think they were a little too literal thinking that
blacks were second class citizens. That is just an undertone that I felt in little things that they
would say and I found that a little bit disturbing. And I am glad that I felt that way and found it
disturbing.
Camari: It is interesting that essentially you and dad grew up in the same state, hundreds of miles
away from each other growing up, and yet the families seemed to develop different opinions
about black people. I would assume they didnt have any more exposure than your family did.
You were both coming from having the same news outlets with television and newspaper. It is
just interesting that they seemed to form a different opinion.
(in a later conversation it was revealed that the comments of the Remund family were comments
such as blacks are only faster because they have an extra bone in their feet and so forth)
Camari: Obviously this next question is not going to reference your family because they were
members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but what was the opinion when you
found out that blacks could now hold the priesthood. Layout for me where you were in your life.

Vickie: I think I was just starting to realize I wanted to have something more in life so I was
starting to look more at religion. For me I wasnt really even aware of the priesthood thing in
general and what that meant to people. I hadnt been involved in it at all. I didnt understand
what was going on. For me it was just like Okay that is what they are going to do now. I didnt
feel negative about it. I was curious that there were so many people that did feel negative about it
and were concerned about it and didnt feel like it was the right decision. I thought that was
interesting because why not? Why wouldnt that be the right decision and why wouldnt that be
the right thing to do? I just thought it was so interesting that people though black people had a
place and they had to hold them to that place. They couldnt rise above that and they couldnt
allow that to happen because somehow they were in charge of keeping them in their place and I
was somehow bothered by that. Maybe it was because my family was kind of in a place in
society where we just didnt have a lot of money and there just didnt seem to be a way out. We
were just stuck in this place where we were pay check to pay check and were always worried
about next paycheck. We werent really able to rise out of that. So maybe that is why I was a
little more sensitive to them. Why would you want to hold them down? Shouldnt we try to
encourage each other to rise about these things.

Camari: November 14th, Saturday, interview Harold Remund. First question I have for you, when
you think back to the civil rights movement, what memories do you have?
Harold: I just have images in my mind of stuff I saw on TV, our black and white TV.
Camari: What images do you remember?
Harold: Like the protests and the Martin Luther King speech.
Camari: So you all were watching these on television?
Harold: I have seen them. I dont know if I watched them live or not because I was really young.
But I know I have seen them.
Camari: What was the general feeling in your home. You grew up in Midway Utah which is in
northern Utah, correct?
Harold: Yes.
Camari: What was the general feeling that you got about race and African American in your
home in the 1960s?
Harold: I didnt feel like there was a feeling against what was going on. I thought there was a
very tolerant attitude with exposure from people of other countries we were taught to be very
tolerant of everyone.
Camari: Do you remember specific conversations with your parents where you got a sense of
what their views were on the civil rights movement and racism?

Harold: I dont believe they had any problem with the movement. I believe they were supportive
of the movement as far as I could tell. They were very supportive and positive about the LDS
churches move to allow all people, including blacks, to receive the priesthood. They were very
supportive of that so I didnt feel like at any particular time that there was any negativity towards
equality.
Camari: Where were you when they announced that blacks would be able to receive the
priesthood?
Harold: I was driving to Heber in our 1964 Ford truck and I heard it on the radio. I think I was
going to get parts for the tractor or something. And I was very positive about that. I thought that
was a very important thing.
Camari: What was your exposure to actually being around African Americans when you were
little? Do you remember the first time you saw a black person?
Harold: I dont remember particularly. When I was almost eight we traveled to the Worlds Fair
and I was exposed to lots of black people in those areas. Washington D.C. and New York. It was
new to me but I didnt have a bad exposure to it. Then when I was sixteen I went to the national
boy scout jamboree in Fairgate State Park in Idaho and on one of the activities that we were
involved in we were paired up with someone from the other troop to do skills and activities and I
was paired up with a black boy. Very nice fellow and I treated him just the same as I would have
treated anyone else because of the example I was shown in my home and I knew everyone was
equal.
Camari: What sense did you get from him? I would assume he was one amongst several hundred
white people.
Harold: I think at first we were both a bit nervous because it was a new situation but as time went
on we functioned well in the activities we were asked to do together. At first it was a little
uncomfortable but once we got going we were fine.
Camari: Do you remember his name?
Harold: I dont.
Camari: That would have been cool if you would have stayed in contact with him.
Harold: It would have, now that I think back on it. But I didnt.
Camari: Where was the troop from?
Harold: I think they were from back east.
Camari: Was he the only African American in the troop?
Harold: No I dont think so

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