CivilRightsOralHistoryProject

InterviewwithMarjoriePavelinSmith
DateofInterview:16November2015;Provo,Utah
Interviewer:GaretAller
Transcriber:GaretAller
Aller: ThisistheCivilRightsOralHistoryProject,sessionnumberonewithMrs.MarjoriePavelin
SmithonNovember16,2015.IaminmyapartmentinProvo.AuntieMisinherhousein
Scottsdale,Arizona.TheinterviewerisMargaretAller,BrighamYoungUniversity.Forthis
interview,IwillbereferringtoMarjoriePavelinSmithasAuntieM.So,whenwereyouborn?
Smith: In1944.
Aller: 1944.Andwherewereyouborn,AuntieM?
Smith: IwasborninMiami,Arizona.
Aller: Miami,Arizona.Atthetimewasitaveryconservativeplace?
Smith: Oh,letssee.MiamiwasprimarilyDemocrat.
Aller: WhatdiditmeantobeaDemocratbackthen?Woulditbedifferentthannow?
Smith: Well,inGilaCounty,whichisaCountyinArizonathatMiamiresides.Youdidnthaveajob
unlessyouwereaDemocrat.TherewerejustnotthatmanyRepublicansrunningforoffice.We
didnthavemuchofachoicebackthen.Myparentsfoundthatoutand..somydaddidnthavea
jobuntilhechangedhisregistrationtoDemocrat.
Aller: Ididntknowthat!DuringmycoursestudieswehavebeenlearningalotaboutthePresident
JohnF.Kennedy.Whatdoyourememberabouthim?
Smith: Iwasnotabigfan.AndIwasdevastatedasthecountrywaswhenhewasassassinated.And
thatsoneofthequestionsthatifyouaskanybodyaroundmyageorthatwasalive,basically,
whenKennedywasassassinated.Theycantellyouexactlywheretheywereatthetime.Iwasin
college.Itwasverydifficultforeverybody.
(3:133:28)
Smith: IgrewupinMcNaryanditwassegregatedwhenIgrewupthere.Myfatherwasthe
superintendentoftheschools.Andthefirstthinghedidwasputalloftheteachersonthesame
payscale.Beforehewastheretheyhadaseparatepayscalesfortheblackteachersandtherest
oftheteachers.Thatwasthefirstthinghedid.Andthesecondthinghedidwasintegratethe
schools.
Aller: AuntieM,thatsincredible.Granddaddyseemslikehewaswayaheadofhistime.
(4:205:45)
Smith: Well,heknewwhatitwasliketogetaneducation.Andteachershadtohavethesameeducation.
Hehadtoworkthroughcollege,andyouknow,forateachingdegreelikeanybodyelse.Andits

onlyfairthattheygetpaidthesame.McNarywasdowninitwasalumbertownandthey
importedthehelpfromLouisianaandtheybroughtalotoftheworkersinboxcarsfrom
Louisianatoworkinthemills.Andtheyhadseparatehousing,whattheycalledthequarters.And
itwasrightnexttothemills,itdidnothaveTheyhadouthouses.Theydidnthave..Theydid
nothaveindoorplumbing,anditwasverydifficult.Lateronthetown,whichwasacompany
town,movedsomeofthepeoplethatwanted,moveduptothehills.Everythingseemedtobe
segregated.Inthemovietheater,IwastoldwhereIcouldsitinthemiddleofthedownstairs
section.TheupstairssectionwasfortheBlacks.ThesectionontherightwasforIndiansandthe
sectionontheleftwasfortheMexicans.Thatshowsegregateditwas.
Aller: Wasthereabigwaybetweenthewaythoseracialgroupsweretreated,betweenBlacks,
Mexicans,andNatives?
Smith: Iwassoyoung,andIgrewupinahomewherewedidnothavesegregation,soIdidnot
understandthewholeconcept.Itreatedeverybodythesame.Andasaschool,weallgotalong
well.Imsuretherewereafewpeoplethatwereprejudice,butitwasntanyoneIhungoutwith.I
hungoutwitheverybody.
Aller: Wasthatacceptingattitudepervasivethroughoutthewholecommunityatthattime?
Smith: No.Noitwasnot.
Aller: WhatdoyouthinkattributedtoGranddaddyandGrannyhavingthatacceptingattitude?
Smith: Theydidntcomefromthereandtheywerenotraisedtobeprejudice.Theydidnothave
prejudices.DadwasraisedinChicago,southside.AndmotherwasborninGlobe.
Aller: ForthosewhodontknowmuchaboutGlobe,howwouldyouhavedescribedit?
Smith: Itsaminingtown.ThecountyseatinGilaCounty.Mygrandfathercamethereintheearly1900s
andsettledthere.Mygrandmothersfamilywasalreadythereandthatshowtheymet.Itwasa
miningtownanditwastherebeforeArizonawasastate.Partofthewildwest.
Aller: HowwouldyouhavedescribedthesouthsideofChicagowhengranddaddywasgrowingup?
Smith: Well,itsverydifferentnow,thanwhenhewasthere.ButChicagoitselfisverydiversifiedin
ethnicgroups.Theyallkindofhavetheirownlittlesections.Andhegrewupthereandwasa
lifeguardonLakeMichigan.HefinishedhighschoolthereandthencameouttoArizonaState
TeachersCollegewhichisnowASU.
Aller: InourcoursewetalkedalittleaboutChicagowiththespecificexampleofEmmettTill.Doesthat
namesoundfamiliartoyou?
Smith:Saythatagain,honey?
Aller: EmmettTill.
Smith:No.

Aller: Okay,youmightnothaveheardofhim,butthisissomethingthatwelearned.EmmettTillwasa
youngboythatgrewupinChicago.HewasAfricanAmericanandhewenttovisithisrelativesin
Mississippi.
Smith: Ohboy.Whatachange.
Aller: Yes!Inabout1955.Youwouldhavebeenprettyyoungstill.Butthiswasamajordevelopmentin
theRaceBeat,themedia.Hewasinastoreandjustlookedatawhitewomanandsaidsomething
reallysimple.TheownerofthestoreandhisrelativecameandcapturedEmmettTill,thisyoung
boy,andtookhimoutintothewoods,andbeathim,andkilledhim,andtiedacottonginaround
hisneck.Andreallyawfulterriblethings.Butthiswasoneofthefirstpicturesthatwasputinthe
newspaperoutsideoftheSouthtoraiseawareness.
Smith: Thatwashorrible.MygrandfatherwasraisedinTexasandoneofhisbestfriendswasAfrican
Americanandtheywouldplaytogetherallthetime.Hislittlefriendwouldnevercomeintohis
house.Hewouldcometothedoorandknock,butnevercomein.Popwentbackyearsandyears
andyearslaterandhestillwouldnotcomein.Buttheywouldalwaysplaytogether.Therewas
prejudicethenasthereisstilltoday.EspeciallyintheSouth.
Aller: ThatsaconceptIhavehadahardtimecomingtogripswith,thatthereisstillprejudicetoday.
(11:3311:45)
Smith: Yes,itisdifficult.NowthereisprejudiceagainstMuslims.Thereisalwaysonegroup.WhenI
wasgrowingup,itwasthePolish.EveryonemadejokesaboutthePolish.Andbeforethatitwas
Catholics.Andtheresalwayssomeone.Anybodythatisdifferent,ornotunderstood,orpeople
donttaketimetounderstandthatwereallthesame,basically.
Aller: Ithinkthatsagoodpoint,peoplearealwaysafraidofthosedifferences.
(12:1512:18)
Smith: Yes.Iftheydontknowsomethingordontknowaboutsomethingthey.Untiltheyknowabout
somethingPrejudiceisaformofignoranceasfarasImconcerned.
Aller: Iagree.IthinkthatssomethingIvelearnedmostaboutthiscourse.Itsthatknowledgeispower
andthemoreknowledgeIhaveaboutpeople,themoreempoweredandcompassionateIfeel.
Smith: EventheprejudiceabouttheLDSisjustnotknowing.Iftheyknewsomethingaboutthechurch
orthepeople,thentheywouldnotfeelthatway.PeoplewhenRomneywasrunningforpresident,
friendsofminewouldnotvoteforhimbecausehewasLDS.AndIsaid,didyouvotefor
Kennedy?Andtheysaid,Oh,well,yeah!AndIwouldaskthem,AreyouCatholic?,and
theywouldsay,well,no.Whatsthedifference?!Youknow?Itsjustignorance.Wedealwith
thateverydayinsomeformoranother.
Aller: Whenyouhearthewordscivilrightsmovement,whatcomestoyourmind?
Smith: MartinLutherKing.Hisspeech.UprisingsintheSouth.Integration.Marches.Idontknow.

Aller: Thatsallfantastic.IfeellikeIvestartedtolearnalotmoreaboutthosethings.Doyou
rememberMartinLutherKingsspeech?
Smith: Ihadadream?Yes.Infact,Ivegotacopyofitsomewhere.Itwasthatimportant.Ididnthaveit
atthetime,butIgotitlater.Itwasreallyquitethespeech.
Aller: Doyourememberverymuchtalkaboutit,eveninArizona?
Smith: BecauseIgrewupinMcNary,whichhadalargeblackpopulation,yes.Thekidsinourschools
wouldrefertothemselvesasNegroes,thenBlacks,thentheywantedustorefertothemas
AfricanAmericans.Evenamongthemselves,theyhavechangedtheirtitle.
Aller: Ididntknowthat.WithMartinLutherKingandotherimportantcivilrightleaders,Ifeellikeit
wasthosesmallthings,likeIhaveadream.OrRosaParks.
Smith: ButtherewasalsothosemilitantBlacks.Theywereverydestructive.MartinLutherKingwas
verypeacefulabouthisapproach,butthereweremilitantBlacksthatdidalotofthings.Then
again,therewastheKluKluxKlanontheothersidedoingthesamething.Itisthose
extrememist.Theyareverybothersome.
Aller: BeingawayfromtheSouth,didyouseeanythingwiththeKluKluxKlaninNorthernArizona?
Smith: No.Notatall.IwouldntknowthemevenifItrippedoverthemunlesstheyworethosestupid
hats.
Aller: YoumentionedGranddaddyandhowhemadeitequalpay.Itseemslikehewasfaraheadofhis
times.Hehaddonewhatthenationwasrequiringatthetime.IremembertalkingaboutBrown
versusBoardofEducation.AndthatwastheSupremeCourtcasethatsaidschoolsmustbe
integrated.TheSouthhowever,didnthaveatimelimitwhenithadtotakeplace.Itwasnt
effectiveimmediately.Sotherewasalotofresistance.However,itseemslikegranddaddywas
justcompelledtodothat.
Smith: Hedidthatinthelatefifties.
Aller:Whatwasitlikebeforegranddaddygotthere?
Smith:Theoldsuperintendantwasnotagoodman.Theygotridofhim.Thetownkickedhimout.
Aller: IdidntknowMcNaryhadalotofAfricanAmericanresidents.BecausewhenIlivedthere,we
onlyhadtwoAfricanAmericankidsinourschool.
Smith:Thatstrue,butBlueRidgeisntMcNary.
Aller: Whydoyouthinksomanyofthemleftthereservation?
Smith:TheyleftwhentheyclosedthemillandmovedontoFlagstafforPhoenix.WhenIwasinschoolin
McNary,allofthekidswerewhitethatwerebussedtherebecausethatwastheIndianpopulation.

McNarywasonthereservationandsotherewasapachesthere,almostthesameamountof
MexicansandalargernumberofBlacks.
Aller: IfyoucouldhaveparticipatedintheCivilRightsmovement,whichpartwouldyouchoose?
Smith:Selma.ThemarchonSelma.Ifeellikethatwasareallysignificantpart.
Aller: Doyoufeelliketherehasbeenmuchprogressmadesincethecivilrightsmovement?
Smith:Ifeellikealotofprogresshasbeenmade.ButIthinktherewillprobablyalwaysbeprejudice
somewherebecausepeopledontunderstandwhereanotheriscomingfrom.Forexample,forus,
itstheillegalscomingacrosstheborder.Thereistremendousprejudiceagainstthemrightnow.I
dontknowthatunlessthewholeworldisatpeacethattherewillnotbeanyrealpeace.
Aller: Ithinkthatsagoodculturalconnectivepoint.Backinthesixties,doyouthinkthePresidentdid
everythinghecouldtobetterthesituationatthetime?
Smith: Iwasnotintopoliticsinthe60s,soIdontknow.
Aller: Whatareyourthoughtsonnonviolence?
Smith: Idontallowgunsinmyhouse.Imbasicallyanonviolentperson,unlessImontheroad.ThenI
justspeedanddontdoanythingelse.Imnotaviolentperson.BUT.Ifanyoneattackedmy
family,Iwouldgoafterthem.Ithink
Aller:Youhavesuchakindheart.Thenonviolentapproacheslikemarches,sitins,andotherthingsdo
youthinkithelpedorhurtthemovement.
Smith:Ithinkithelped.Violencebegetsviolence.However,thenonviolentattitudetowardstheMuslims
isnotgoodorgettingusanywhere.
Aller:Youreright.Violenceseemslikeonecontinualround.ThereisstillracismagainstAfrican
Americans.
Smith:Well,theresstillracismagainstIndians!Andtheywereherefirst.Andtheresprejudiceamong
thetribes.TheIndiantribes.TheApachesdontliketheNavajos.Itseverywhere.
Aller:Youmadeacommentearlierintheinterviewthatintriguedme.Yousaid,thatwhenyouwere
little,youdidntknowthedifference.
Smith:Ididnt!
Aller:Howwouldyouexplainthat?
Smith:Idontthinkmyparentswereprejudice.Everyonewaswelcomeinourhome.Wehadagroup
ofwhenIwasinhighschoolandwestilllivedinMcNary,wehadagroupofthreeorfour
peoplethatwouldcomeoverandwatchthefightswithdad.Idontthinktheyhadtelevision,but
theylikedwatchingboxingwithDadonFridaynight.Sowealwayshaddifferentracesaround

andweallgotalong.Ididntevenrealizethattherewascafintown,untilyearslater,thatitwas
whiteonly.Ididnteventhinkaboutit.Butthewaythetheaterwassetup,wassodifferent.I
wouldtrytogouptothebalconyandMr.Fraizercameupandsaid,youcantdothat!AndI
said,whatdoyoumean?HetoldmetthatwaswheretheBlackssitandIhadtositdowninthe
middle.Itoldhimthatwascrazy.Everythingwassegregatedbecausetheownersofthetown
camefromtheSouth.Onthemainstreetlivedthebigwigsofthecompany.
Aller:Itsoundsliketomethattoleranceissomethingpeoplearebornwith,butracismistaught.
Smith:Ithinkso,Ireallythinkso.
Aller:Doyouremembermuchaboutthedevelopmentofmediaduringthecivilrightsmovement?
Smith:No.Wedidntalwayshaveatv.ButIdontreallylikethemediarightnow!