I

I
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO

& FIREARMS

92 -4

TAPE #229

4/15/93
6:24 P.M. 7:33 P.M..

>

Tape 229!
JOHN: -STEVE SCHNEIDER:

communication.
Yeah.

.-an

JOHN: You

recall our

lines were

down.

Everybody -STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: And so I Right. don't think it was anybody's

particular problem
unfortunate collection

or fault.

It was

just an
that occurred.

of circumstances

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: And, face with
situation.

Right.
you came face to

as a result,

flashbacks, which

was a very

unpleasant

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Well, really

that, I

don't

know why that they

'cause --

but it

didn't seem -to it than

It was

more the

idea

would do

the actual

thing itself

JOHN: Did

it part

your hair?
NOt at all.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

JOHN: Oh, STEVE SCHNEIDER:

it didn't? I'll be honest with you.

It didn't really bother by the window that

JOHN: Wow,

me, but

there was

a little about two

kid days

had ear

problems for

that's, that's I'msurprised --

it didn't bother you.

too.

That's unfortunate with the

kid

51

STEVE SCHNEIDER: I'm notjoking. It

But, seriously, I stood

I'm not, there for

really didn't.

the second
bit. And
92.~-all

one even
I said

and still

stayed there

a little

what's going on?

JOHN: See, as I
a road mamager for rock and

recall, you're something of

roll bands, so your

hearing's probably anyway, shot

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I tried to --

Actually, like
about my

you're saying, I'm extremely concerned

that kind of music, and I'm

hearing and

usually trying
even when

to cup

my ear

or stay

as far

from it,

I'm anywhere involved. JOHN: Yeah, that can be a thing -Hey, have

you had

your meal

yet? My MRE?
a tossed salad or Caesar

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: Whatever.

salad here

with or

without anchovies

tonight?

STEVE SCHNEIDER:@ Yeah. Well,

to take you to a restaurant over there

hey, I'dlike
on the other

side of

Arturis, and

you won't believe the

kind of

food

they've got.

JOHN: Where restaurant are you

is it,

by the

way? What ' other

talking about? I'm talking about the the Galaxy.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: one on the other side of

JOHN: Galaxy?

I thought

you were with

--

92

92
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - or

;./92

.4
the Milky Way.

JOHN: Oh,

oh, oh.

We're talking about

something really
1..~d

serious here

now.

-the

hypothetical

or way

out there? STEVE SCHNEIDER: John, come on. You've got

to know

that there's

life out

there somewhere.

JOHN: Oh,

probably. I'm sure there

Yeah.

is.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

JOHN: Unfortunately, dealing on the reality level here

we're dealing, we're about --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Oh, dear.

JOHN: Let

me see,

there'sa place

called

Galaxy, Texas,
is that what you

which

is a little
mind? I had

bit north

of Dallas,

had in

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

a feeling

that you

hadn't picked on it, so up

little bit further with it.

I'd thought I'd just a go

JOHN: Uh-huh. the -choice?

No, when what was

you were

outside of

what did

you -

your restaurant

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

When

Iwas

--

Ilove

Italian food
Hawaii where

and Mexican

food, even

though

Ilived

in

there's no end of

Oriental variety.

JOHN: Yeah,
here in, what is this? Waco?

but as

far as

food is

concerned

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Oh, Waco.

I never

/" J,

O e

5
eat a lot around Waco. I mean, more so

really didn't

California. when came I here, I usually came

to study, California. JOHN: _Yeah. 'Cause David pretty was to spend some time, then I'dgo back

here just
out to

well

known outside

the gate

there and

was. bounced around a

STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: little bit.

Yeah, he sort of

and he

STEVE SCHNEIDER: like, oh, I could give you

If you a whole

go around list of to the

talking businesses. clerks and know,

to

He'd stay there for people. It

hours talking

the

doesn't matter where he

way. That sounds

goes, you

it's always been that JOHN: Um-hum.

of, what was it,

like a

page out

Jesse Amen's book.

l 9

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Oh, no,

really?

JOHN:

Yeah. I

can imagine

Jesse wandering

into my
and doing

restaurant and
the Bible

standing in
business.

front of

my cashier

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: Yeah.

Amen, brother.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: remember him

supposed to --

That's the only

thing I

saying is

amen, brother.

He wasn'teven

JOHN: Remember,

if this

doesn't come out

1 .

/5>~ ~

1' 0
he's going back in.
Pardon? STEVE SCHNEIDER:

soon,

JOHN: If
<..-0

this --

if you

don&#39;t come out soon,

he&#39;s going

back in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If we don&#39;t come out he&#39;s

going back

in where?
JOHN: To you.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: Yes.

Say what?

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
here?

Are you

trying to

keep

us

JOHN: No, hanging over your head.

but that&#39;s it. That&#39;s

what

Ihave

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Idon&#39;t know.

Imean,

I--

he&#39;s a human being,

JOHN: Okay,

you know,
if you

I mean,
say so.
-- what

I don&#39;t know --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

circumstances the

poor guy&#39;s been through

JOHN: Yeah,

and -he&#39;s one 60 of --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I

all look at me in the same light, so --

imagine you

people

JOHN: No,
times.

no, no,

no, you&#39;rerational at

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

At times.

Oh.

JOHN: -concerned about that at

you reliability
times.

coefficient, we&#39;re

4/
listening to with you.
~-an

..0"79292
you are going to

U
wonder what&#39;s happening

7
those

STEVE SCHNEIDER: I&#39;ll qualify that or

JOHN: No. terms, you

about that

I&#39;m using

one of

my favorite

reliability coefficient,
sometimes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.

we&#39;re concerned

JOHN: By could return

traveler himself.

the way,

Ithink,

you know,

we a galaxy

to Jesse

Amen. He&#39;s something of

STEVE SCHNEIDER: tells me, I think

JOHN:

Yeah, he

is. From

what he

he
Yeah.

is.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

.I believe

he

is.

JOHN: Way

on up

there. But I had -- I but in

life goes knew of Hawaii there

on. some --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Ishould call them acquaintances,

was a friend of
place, and
scientology and

my wife&#39;s that worked

had spent

in the

same
in

this guy
he --

over $100,000

JOHN: Oh,

yes, yes. -- swore up and down he&#39;d

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
been on Mars and
JOHN: Ohhh. STEVE SCHNEIDER: and --

he had

traveled --

He had

traveled there

92

JOHN: Yeah,

down in

-- they

get

a big

hang

up -STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, the

&#39;
guy, you know, he

was an
M

extremely intelligent with his

guy, he

really

was, and wrong -

nothing wrong with him

communication, nothing than he was into this

period, other mean, he

with you.

scientology. I
about anything

could carry
He was okay.

on a conversation

JOHN: Veah, there&#39;s answitch those open on

guys, I feel.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: experience, I

I really that it
--

don&#39;t doubt his --

just don&#39;t believe

JOHN: Don&#39;t doubt his

STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, I there are believe that

-- labeled

his experience. world, with us. that

there&#39;sspiritual a that inter-react

spiritual beings
JOHN: Um-hum.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:, you think about psychic and

I mean,

I don&#39;t know what

supernatural phenomena,

ouija boards,
typoosum phonetic

about --

I mean,

sometimes get
of Hinduism

into
where

sp.!, something

it&#39;s actually
year.

-- it

takes

place

in Malaysia

once a

JOHN: Right. STEVE SCHNEIDER: and pull carts. I They put hooks on the back them run

mean, I&#39;ve literally seen

QI
:92- rs;

~-92f
92
the cheeks.

92a{-/ 9
JOHN: Well, this is

rods through

something I talked to
of Eric Von

David about,
s-f

and I

think I
sp.!.

made mention

Donegan phonetic

STEVE SCHNEIDER: he&#39;s -- that&#39;s -- In fact,

Oh, yeah. that&#39;s quite

Sure. Oh, a -I, I

yeah,

personally have heavy into of the

that were

seen that

a few

times, and the realities artifacts and

David&#39;ll get of some so forth

&#39;

that with

you, about

things -left.

the different

JOHN: Um-hum. there. Again, it&#39;s like

You know, the, the

there&#39;s potential Bible, it can be

interpreted numerous

ways.
Well, really it can&#39;t,

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
though. I mean -JOHN: You mean about

the lions

or the

--

STEVE SCHNEIDER: attempt to do so, but those

No, no. men that

John, people wrote down,

can as

weird as

it is

what they to use in the

wrote down, the language future.

they saw of their day to

something, tried describe something

JOHN: Um-hum.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

And they

definitely

harmonize when

given the

opportunity. I
able to

mean, no
really do

one

that I&#39;ve ever met

has been

a good

job. There

was a

man by the name

of Dr.

Waterhouse,

4. 2
Douglas Waterhouse, up in

<

92 .0
Michigan and he&#39;d --

JOHN: He must have a son who&#39;s a Marine

Corps artist,
-ii famous --

cause

Col. Waterhouse

is

a very

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I think

I have

heard the

--

Yeah,

Col. Waterhouse,
JOHN: Um-hum.

I think

I&#39;ve heard of him.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Waterhouse is

a big

name in

Hawaii. They

started one JOHN:

of the

major banks also an

there.

Yeah. They&#39;re

accounting

crowd, too,

Price Waterhouse.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
true, they&#39;re them. But He had done one of the -I was of work

You&#39;ve gotThat&#39;s it.

if not the biggest, one of with him. symbolism of the

this guy, a lot

quite impressed in imagery,

Bible, Revelation,
taken about of research
hope that kind of

Ezekiel, Zechariah.
with, then in the

In fact,

I had

seven classes with

he would a fireworks

I, I&#39;d done a lot process, I&#39;d always

what

him. And
meet David. that would

I wanted be.

to see

JOHN: Um-hum.
now.

Hey, I&#39;ve got a

commercial

STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: Have you had

okay. an opportunity to touch

base with

David about

setting this
He, he

thing up
will definitely

with Clint?
do

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

,!
:92 11

it.

Ialready know hewill.

JOHN: Okay. So he&#39;ll pass through there and

he&#39;s got the word,then at about 7:00 he-STEVE SCHNEIDER:

1--u

He hasn&#39;t,

but I,

Iwill

--

I&#39;1l be my way in on
there for sure at

just a

few minutes.

So he will be

7 then?

JOHN: Yeah, should be finished by

we&#39;ll drag that time.

him -

Ithink

he

STEVE SCHNEIDER: do then is run up there,

Okay. Maybe make sure

what

Ishould

he knows.

JOHN: Yeah.

And --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: call right back? JOHN: Well,

You want

me to

give you

either way,

however You

want to

do it. with David

Or just

give us

a call

back at 7

would be

fine,

picking up. STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. If is try can get you don&#39;t mind, to have a second
Is this

think what work it

I&#39;m going do to out where maybe he

Graham here, -Graham

JOHN: Graham?

Who&#39;s this?

Craddock or somebody?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: good, very good.
JOHN: I5 he --

That&#39;s it,

that&#39;s it.

Very

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

He&#39;s, like Isaid,

"Gilligan&#39;s Island"

professor.

92 P ~
JOHN: Okay. Yeah.
might be considered, you know, I Graham&#39;s backgroundis, but
mi

92
- 12

Another thing we - that

don&#39;t know what we&#39;ve got really good

communication going
or anybody

now. We

don&#39;t want Graham

Craddock

else screwing STEVE SCHNEIDER:

things up. No, he&#39;s one the that

actually finally
so stationary --

got it

like this.
techies are

And he&#39;s it now got

JOHN: Our

going to

take

a lot

of

heat over
taking bows

that one.
for it.

They were

the

ones -They&#39;re

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, anyway, now so

wall.

he&#39;s got it to the

it&#39;s very

stationary and

firmly attached

JOHN: that he starts

well, I&#39;m messing around

just worried with the

about the phone that Bradleys

fact --

It&#39;s bad enough we have coming in.

to worry

about the

STEVE SCHNEIDER: all been fixing while he&#39;s

If you

saw what -I

the guy&#39;s mean, I

- it&#39;s a mind

-that&#39;s why I&#39;ve called him

professor.

what I

did, you

know, the

JOHN:
up the line.

Okay. The

bottom

line is

don&#39;t screw

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Oh, no,

no,

no. No,

no. I

believe seriously

he&#39;s good. He knows what

he -And,,

1
1 _. ,. 1,; re ;___ -_ ..-

it

O 13

you know,

from the
JOHN: You

beginning -don&#39;t want us to face the techies,

screaming and
Q.-4

yelling at

us, do

you?
now, John?
face the

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: You

Say what
don&#39;t want us to

technies, screaming

and yelling
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I

at us?
thought maybe he was

already around
don&#39;t touch it.

there, sitting

there and

saying no,

JOHN: Right. Okay, old

base with

Or else

it&#39;s going to explode. way? Touch

man, why
David.

don&#39;t you do it that

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I will.

JOHN: Then
a call back? Then

about 7:00

why don&#39;t give you

and --

me

we&#39;ll hook everybody up

Sounds good.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

JOHN: --

away we&#39;ll

go. Okay.

Okay?

STEVE SCHNEIDER:, JOHN: Okay.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Bon Appetit.
Bye.

JOHN: Bye-bye.
** 1 *

STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: Yeah, Steve.

Hello,

John?

STEVE SCHNEIDER: back because I just talked to

Yeah, the David and

-- I

was calling he says yeah,

&#39;92

0
that&#39;d be fine.

14
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: in about
s.-an

i
He said I&#39;ll be down there And

15 minutes or

whenever he&#39;ll

be around.

then he
tape out to

says, Steve,
those guys

but still,
so they

I&#39;d like to get

can at least see,

that

generally speaking, reactionto a his

six questions.
JOHN: Um-hum.

first four, five,

STEVE SCHNEIDER: it off and you could pick

Any, any

way we could drop -The commanders

it up

here or

JOHN: That&#39;s the problem.

are starting running

todo.

to get out of

a little

sticky

on, you gets

know, to be a big

in and

there, &#39;cause it

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Is

it really?

JOHN: Yeah, unfortunately. Tell you what

we&#39;ll do. We&#39;ll passit
optimistic about it, because

on up

there, but

don&#39;t too be

we&#39;ll see what happens.

When David
might have

and you
an answer

get

on the

phone at
on that. Okay. So

7, hopefully,

we

for you

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

you, you

don&#39;t

think you

can do

any moves

earlier to

do anything

then?

JOHN: No, not, not

got, about 15 minutes here? STEVE SCHNEIDER:

in 15 - what have we
That&#39;s funny about that. I

-p.

.1 . ~ 92 I

Q I
DQVGI 8Vn ""

15
JOHN: Nothing STEVE SCHNEIDER: is every easy. I thought -were easy, you&#39;d be here out it was. I

.14

thought all

this time JOHN: If things

by now. STEVE SCHNEIDER: here pretty quick. JOHN: You

know --

Well, hey,

I&#39;m on way my

better

hurry up

&#39;cause, you

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

You know,

I mean,

at least

I see him, you know, doing something finally and we&#39;re

all extremely optimistic .

I JOHN:
concerned about,

Um-hum. See,

what the

command is
up there
one of your folks

they&#39;re afraid that going

know when

is

dangerous &#39;cause they never

up there
that.

might take

a shot

at them

or something

like

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Good Lord.

I mean,

here we

are trying
have good

to save
times forever

your souls

and yourselves
-know, there,

so you

can

more and Well, you

JOHN: Um-hum.

there

are some
those things

things

in the

past that

kind of

-- remembering

that occurred.
it. We&#39;ve

So that&#39;s why they&#39;re very

kind of lulled ourselves

concerned about

into security,

and boom --

I, l= t
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, look

&#39; 16
at --

JOHN:-you might gethit.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
v.-.1

Yeah, but

look it,

I&#39;ve

always come drop something

have a lot of

out here -

Imean,

when I&#39;ve gone out plainly.

they can

to

off, it&#39;s always very

clothes on purposely, so on me.

Idon&#39;t
see me.

Idon&#39;t have anything

JOHN: But,
that time
little concerned

remember, you

took some
and they

stuff in
a

that wasn&#39;t supposed to

about that.

were

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Oh, that&#39;s

not true.

No

one ever

- We

never had

an agreement,

did we?

And

that was
never was.

never brought
And, and
JOHN: Um-hum.

up about
since then,

anything like
I have agreed.

that,
And --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: asked and I&#39;ve said okay, no

JOHN: Umhum. ~

-- you, problem.

you know,

you&#39;ve

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
and -JOHN: Yeah.

But

that was

with John

Cox

STEVE SCHNEIDER: by the way, you&#39;ve got me JOHN: Right. STEVE SCHNEIDER: battery pack which was

-we back on

went to that.

drop -

Oh,

&#39;Cause Isent

you out

my and

a six-hour

battery pack,

&#39; E

92

I I,
I&#39;ve not seen it
I have.

17
since, nor the original onehour pack

JOHN: Well,
on it. The other

they couldn&#39;t get

command is

a good
concerned

price

thing that

about, people
and out.

keep popping

out on

the roof

and going

in

STEVE SCHNEIDER: lately, has it? JOHN: well,

That&#39;s not been happening

sure. Just

a few

minutes ago

didn&#39;t your - or

whatever got

a flashback?

s&#39;r1=:v1-: SCHNEIDER: No, no, no. That "was, that

was in the court, and that, - That
-I --

you know, going to

that was be happening. I

something that
mean, that

is not

JOHN: well, concerned about.

anyhow, that&#39;s what they&#39;re us.

John, I

That&#39;s what they tell

No, I

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

know. And,

go along

with that.

You know,

we don&#39;tneed to

go

through it
has stopped,

again, but,
also.

you know,

with Dave

Jones, that

JOHN: Yeah, that occurred

we can&#39;tgo up

just a

pile of

things

like that That&#39;s why

that they&#39;re worried about.

and back as much as you and

Iwould

like

to. And worked out things are

it just a little going to

-it&#39;s a given. bit better be a problem.

Until things and you guys come

are out,

.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

18
Remember, the only two

places anyone&#39;s ever been been in

Qd

out, in

the first - You

place, has know

the two

places, you when we put the

know, like banner out, nail it

yourself like very clear

You&#39;ve seen

it&#39;s there down, right?

and, of
--

course, they

JOHN: Right. STEVE SCHNEIDER: we, you

get used

Okay. And a pattern

other than so you

that, can

know, we
to and

basically state
know.

JOHN: Um-hum.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: circumstances.

And I

was mad

under both

JOHN: Oh, situation, I

and I

- if -I found

I were

in your

can understand
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

out about

Jones and

I found

out about

this other

guy doing

that, I

-- In

fact, I
either.

just talked to David.

JOHN: Yeah.

He didn&#39;t aboutit, know

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

And he

said if

the guy

--

anybody does

something like

that

again you

get to

have

them irregardless.
JOHN: Yeah. control of your guys

&#39;" y
Here, here&#39;s -- You&#39;re losing in there. Did you hear -Let&#39;s not

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

&#39; 19
beat a dead horse now. Now, let&#39;s --

JOHN: Things are in the past.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- be civilized with each

.4

other. Okay.

Okay.
JOHN: But
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

you know

what we&#39;re
Of course I do.

saying here.

JOHN: And
run out as much

this is

why we

can&#39;t run in and

as we&#39;d like to.

And --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: you. We

or --

Okay. Well, that you

it&#39;s up to maybe wanted

thought that&#39;s

something

JOHN: It&#39;s

not

a bad

idea.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I thought

maybe it

would

give

Clint

a little

bit more even more

of a background and like to

this or

to hit

him

with something
homework and

solid and,
what about

do his

say okay,

that?

JOHN: Um-hum.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: been real productive. JOHN: Yeah.

.It&#39;s --

I think

would have

what&#39;s going to happen,

we&#39;re

just going and have the, the

to have that worked tape I

Clint and out. So

David discuss we can just forget

this stuff about that.

guess it

is or

something like

STEVE SCHNEIDER: extremely disappointed.

JOHN: These

David&#39;s going to be

are, these

are indeed

hard

, &#39;.

Q
times.

20
Let me a violin and give you symphony. Iare on the same page a crying

STEVE SCHNEIDER: towel

v..-up

here and

I&#39;ll play JOHN: I

think you

on

that one.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Well,

Iknow

where you&#39;re

coming from

very clearly. JOHN: Yeah. I guess it&#39;s beenthree funthere has been some

filled weeks

I&#39;ve been here and

high spots. STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: No, -Marriotts or Disneyland? there anymore.

no. I&#39;m not out

Oh, okay.
the East Coast.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: I&#39;m back on

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
out? "

Okay. when

are you

heading

JOHN: Oh, soon. I

here in

I&#39;ll probably have to guys were

two -Well, who

leave fairly out

thought you
the next

going to

be coming

day or

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

knows? who

knows?

Imean,

he&#39;s definitely

working on

these

things, so,
the seals.

Imean,

Idon&#39;tknow. I

myself have

all

JOHN: Umhum.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: knowledge of the seventh,

I only

have

a very

cursory I&#39;ve

and it&#39;s, it&#39;s something

OO
waiting for.
been waiting -Actually, it is the one

=1
H
that we&#39;ve been

JOHN: Well

--

._.-4

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

And after

going through

all

six and

then, all

of a sudden, get almost to the

February the end and

28th

happens. You
that: why,

bingo. So

you know JOHN: Okay.

-I understand I still have to call how that do a few us back works. more odd at around

Tell you and end

7:00.

what do. things.

Have David

STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: And

Okay. Clint together and

I&#39;ll put he and

they can
like that.

solve all

the world&#39;sproblems or

something

STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: Okay?

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Okay,

will do

it.

Talk to

then.

JOHN: Right,

old man. Goodbye.

Q 1 a

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
a

CLINT: HellO?

STEVE SCHNEIDER: CLINT: Speaking.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Hello. Clint

maybe?

This is

Steve.

CLINT:

Hello, Steve.

How are

you?

Q
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
me. I He says
e.-4

Q =2
Yeah, David&#39;s right behind
him. He for said just a minute. I get to a minute until to get him just

just went talk to

the phone.

CLINT: Okay,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

we&#39;re on phone, the

Is this I

Steve.
is

think this

the first

time I&#39;vespoken with

CLINT: No, it&#39;s not.

you, huh?

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

It&#39;s not?

CLINT: No,
srzvr SCHNEIDER:

you&#39;ve, you&#39;vemy voice. heard

on, really? But I never

talked to

you, have
CLINT: Yes,

I?
you have.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: CLINT: Oh,

Steve. STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Man, how

long ago

was this? weeks,

probably a

couple of

Wow. I

don&#39;t remember.

Anyway, so,
this morning
answered gotten out then even

yeah, the
and I

questions were
on to
was hoping could

passed on to me
him. He actually

passed them
that he

with a to you

tape

would have at and

which you

have looked

asked deeper, CLINT: Well,

stronger questions. Steve, is, is David there now? In fact, he

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

He&#39;s coming.

said get
there. So

him on

the phone,

he says,
just

and I&#39;ll be right

or so.

he&#39;ll be here in

a minute

F.

92

"l I,
CLINT: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: two weeks
Q-at

23
_
So, so Idid speak with you

ago or

so?
I&#39;m the one that introduced

CLINT: Um-hum.

you on attorneys.

the telephone,

you and

David both

to your

STEVE SCHNEIDER: remember now. Okay. Iguess

Okay. Okay, Iwas

okay,

Ido

thinking more

about, you out with

know, in them and

that time so forth.

what Iwas So, okay.

trying to

work

CLINT: That&#39;s

understandable.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
you from, Clint?
CLINT: Well --

Right. And

so where

are

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
is. No more small talk.

Here he

is, Clint,

here

he

CLINT:

Iappreciate

that.

srsvs SCHNEIDER:
HR. KORESH: CLINT: Hello, MR. KORESH:
here for a second.

Okay, just
Hello, Clint. David. Oh, boy. Good to

a minute.

get

a break

CLINT: I&#39;m sure you MR. KORESH: Imade

need it. a tape for you but,

evidently, they, with the

they said

that there

were problems

commanders or something.

3
24

CLINT: That&#39;s my understanding, HR. KORBSH: minute. Steve,

ea-I

also. - Wait in my a room is right you

Okay, what go back the top,

can I up there

will you

and look next to ever tried

on those the pillow, to, to

CLINT: On
HR. KORESH:

papers, on

and his questions? Have

those, those write a book

on your,

your side?

my side?
Yeah.

CLINT: No, David, no. MR. KORESH:

I can&#39;t recall -

on my

side,

It&#39;s not easy. Well,

Clint, one

of your
to the

questions you
opening of

were asking

was, was

in regards

the seals.
Let me, let me tell you where

CLINT: Yeah.

my questions

are coming

from, David.

MR. KORESH: All right.

CLINT: lnd
that, okay? second. I&#39;ll Ju.c

kind of
a second. with you.

give you
[gap] One [gap]

an overview
moment. One

on

be right

HR. KORESH:

I&#39;m here.

CLINT:

Yeah. To

make a long

story short,

my

keys are locked

the car.

in my

car and

I&#39;ve gotAAA here

opening

HR. KORESH:

I&#39;ve done that before,

too, so

don&#39;t worryabout it,

CLINT: Nell,

Clint.
I try not to do that, but when

&#39;

92

Q
one&#39;s drivinga rental
me give get on
~..-1

Q
car, that
you and

.5
me, let
know, can, you okay?

happens. Let
I can,

you, just the same

so that set of

scriptures together,
All right.

HR. KORESB:

CLINT: What,

what brings

me here

is not

to -you to

What brings
do anything, of there

me talking

to you

is not

to convince
you&#39;re you to
try to

okay, number whenever the

that. And

one. You, Lord leads

coming out
it, and

do

I believe

I&#39;m nothere to

influence you
would like

one way
to see

or the

other. As

an FBI

agent, I
see it

this resolved

and I&#39;d like to

done safely followers, and

and securely everyone out

for you, here.

for all

of your

But I&#39;ve also got Christian and and where

is perked

an interest

in your

as a

I&#39;ve gotan interest you&#39;re goingwith it,

as a fellow Christian

in what and I
just so

you&#39;ve said interest

can

guess my
that I

better understand
here to duel with

you. And,
you, okay?

you know, I&#39;m, I&#39;m not

I&#39;m nothere to cross

Bible swords

and I&#39;m, I&#39;m hereto better

understand

your position.
almost, than

And it&#39;s more of

a professional

a personal

thing,

thing. And

that&#39;s the only

thing
have
beliefs.

that brings
a better

me to

your doorstep
you and

right now,
some of

is to
your

understanding of

- MR.

KORESH: Well,

there&#39;s nogreater

92

26
profession than the study of heart to heart, which is

the whole
isn&#39;t it?
~.-I

purpose of
I mean,

Christ coming
even with it? okay. You

in the

first place,
know, it was a

Pilate, you

heart to

heart, wasn&#39;t CLINT: Well,

know, I&#39;m, you know,

I&#39;ve been an instructor, classes, adult know, my and children,

I&#39;ve taught Sunday School and been a lot involved in, of years. you

own personal
MR. KORESH:

church for
Uh-huh.

CLINT: And I, like so many

I guess

I&#39;m thefirst to have always

say been --

that

other Christians,

When one looks at the various books of the Bible to

study and someone says Revelations and there&#39;s an oh, maybe tomorrow I&#39;ll look I don&#39;t think
at -HR. KORESH: It&#39;s a hard book.

I&#39;ll do it today,

CLINT: Let

me look

at Psalms,

Proverbs,

because

that&#39;s nice

and comforting,

and I

can turn to and they can,

my children they can

and share Psalms pick it up very

and Proverbs quickly.

MR} KORESH: Simple moral lesson, that&#39;s

true.

CLINT: Yeah.

And I&#39;m sure you

do the

same

thing

with

your children.
that anyone something --

And they&#39;re, they&#39;re just -can understand. is a book And I that people think need

they&#39;re things Revelations is

5 _ F
27

to understand Christians, have

but shy

away from.

And I

think we,

as

historically done

that. And

I&#39;m
a I&#39;ve got

interested in
number of
~_,-4

what you&#39;ve done with

questions. You know, I

it and
passed some

on to

you

through --

A
HR. KORESH: Yeah, I have them right here
in

my hand

now. CLINT: a fellow that I spoke to last

night And

I just

would like where -

to get what you

are, and

a little believe in
how you

bit of those
feel

an

understanding of
areas, what
influenced in

your teachings
each of those areas.

MR. KORESH:

Okay, Clint.

Well, first

Of

all, the

points you&#39;ve made are the only thing any

very noble. man can

You know, look to now.

Christ, that&#39;s The law

was given
CLINT: I

by Moses.
understand.

MR. XORESH:
Jesus Christ.
CLINT: Um-hum.

But grace

and truth came

by

HR. KORESH:

And we

see

that the

whole format

of the, to put

the burden

of Matthew,

Mark, Luke

and John of men this

is

through, through

the writings

inspiration of
world and

how man can live

he get

so selflessly
and what did

in this
he
do

how did

that power

with

that power?

You know, the

doing of

good, bringing

 I-

Q
man to God through the works
of a
when we a lot

6 =8
man and
start off of different

his
our

testimony? well,
first students,
a .-4

basically,
we deal
we have

with
to

denominations and

first glorify
to the

Christ.
cross, you

You know,

people point

know, and
Well, did
our sins?

they say
he die
And what

well,
for our
were our

this man
sins or

died for
did he

our sins.
die because of

sins? You him. He

know, Isaiah

53, we

hid our

faces from

was stricken,

smitten of
was wounded

God and we esteemed

for our

him so,

right? But
know, the

he

transgressions. You

first commandment oh, Israel listening they listen they hear the Lord is a talent

of God

to Israel is one

from Sinai God. You

is hear, know, did

thy God that we

as beings listen to

have. But Moses? Did what they

to Noah? the prophets? to?

Did they

Did they

understand

were listening

Well, the

theological world

2,000 years

ago

in Judaism

was about

as theological

as anybody

can get.

The Pharisees, but what

the Sanhedrim teaching was

were prolific based upon

teachers, what they

they were what they

perceived by inspiration comes speaks to like men

were taught. not by

of the will

And we know that

men, but when God

a man

I don&#39;t think God

forgets what

he says,

might forget.
CLINT: Let me ask you this, David, and as we

- 92

92

Q
go on, let, let me interject, too, just for my own

edification. when speak you - Now, a I&#39;m teacherand

I teach,
s--1

also, and

there

is areas

that I

teach in

that

I&#39;ve taught many times, teaching in.

know it and I

that I&#39;m very comfortable and I

you

It&#39;s almost like I&#39;ve taught it

understand it. I don&#39;t need notes,

know, I
I can

don&#39;t need slides, I

do these things
MR. KORESH:

don&#39;t need anything else.

the top
of you.

right off
It&#39;sa part

of my

head.

CLINT: And a base level, 101, or I

I can

start either up to

at, you 202 or

know,

can go

whatever

it&#39;s going to be.

HR. KORESH:

And -Uhhuh.

CLINT: --

one doesn&#39;t

have to

have an

academic background

to understand,

one has

to have

thirst and

a hunger
HR. KORESH:

for knowledge.
Umhum.

CLINT: And

I guess

I think

that makes

the

difference between very simply

the good seat.

student and

someone who&#39;s

occupying a
HR. KQRESH:

Well, the

Christian, the

true

disciple, definitely no doubt about it.

wants to I mean,

hear the a true

words of

Christ, to

disciple&#39;s going Mark, Luke and John.

when you anointed? Do

read Matthew,

he&#39;s going read to

when you that your

CLINT: Now, teach, do you feel

teach, David, teaching is

.so
you feel that, in essence? Do you get a chance to, do

you get a chance pray before youteach andthen -to

MR. KORESH:
Qu

Well, first

of all

--

CLINT: --

go into

the field

that you&#39;re

teaching, that
the time?

everything you

say is,

is anointed

at

MR. KORESH: states in the Book of

Well, here&#39;s the thing. John, my doctrine is

Christ not mine,

right? But
through the that if

that which
book of any man

I received
John he

of my

father. All
how know

consistently repeats of God myself or think that in he shall

will do whether I

the will speak of know, you

the doctrine, of God.

whether it&#39;s the

He says, you

scripture you me. Christ pointed

have life

and there

they which

testify of

to the

scripture as

a written when did he

document foretelling Christ began

pray everytime A lot

his coming. people of

to teach? students will

Okay. Now, his day,

No. ask me,

to teach the
he began of my

they&#39;ll say

excuse me,
teach.

you didn&#39;thave a prayer

before you

began to

CLINT: Okay.

Now, see,

that&#39;s -- I, I

think

that&#39;s oneof the

as an --

questions, though.

I mean,

you know,

M. KORESH:
the Holy Spirit.

Basic Christianity,

praying for

Q Q
CLINT: As
lot of things that

.1
an FBI agent, though,
do that

there&#39;s a
I don&#39;t

I&#39;m called upon to

have time
mi

to stop can pray with A to

and drop

to my

knees or open while

fold my I&#39;m going

hands. I from point

my eyes B.
Always.

point

HR. KORESH:

CLINT: And,
before you ever do
M. KORESH:

and cover

yourself

in prayer

something.
Amen. That&#39;s the way we&#39;re

supposed to

walk

in the

spirit. That&#39;s

what Christ

told Nicodemus,

be more

to the

spirit like
from but -Qkay, of people

the
you can

wind.
see the

You don&#39;tknow where effect of it. Just

it comes your kind a, a bunch

for instance, in a raid,

let&#39;s say you busted

all right? going to with them, person

There&#39;s goingto be notice the although in that doesn&#39;t difference of

a person you and

there that&#39;s how you a deal

judgment, than have Christ.

they would

That&#39;s just a

Christian factor.

CLINT: Well, our conversations you hearing belief or that by

you know,

I like

to think

in and by

me hearing

your voice

mine there&#39;sat least honesty that&#39;s going to

HR. KORESH: Well, you

a perception come with

asked me

of it.

a question,

I&#39;m going honestly to I&#39;m going direct to

give you you to

the honest

answers, but You

scriptures, though.

jl_ I
see, there&#39;s nothing more in the tune of prayer than

32
spirit. And
in the mind of

praying in the
we have to pray

if we pray in the
God. In

spirit,

other words,

faith is
C.

things that
CLINT: The HR. KORESH:

are hoped
substance of

for.
things hoped of things for. not

Exactly. Evidence

seen. Abraham
I&#39;ll go out into

did not
this land

just say

one day

I just
will

think

out here

and God

probably give with Abraham

his life was to

it to

me one day. No,

God directly him a promise

an avenue

spake which
of faith.

and God directly gave

be made manifest as

He was So when we believe John that

to believe we say

in we believe

what God

had freely in Christ,

given to

him.

we&#39;re saying that Luke and all

by the

testament of

Matthew, Mark, is above and beyond

this man&#39;s witness even the

men&#39;s witnesses,

witness of the religious

Moses. Why? leaders who were

Well, because

trying to

teach God

in the

days of
of God

Christ could

in no

ways manifest manifest. Okay.

the spirit On the

this is I go

that Christ

could make eleventh

They go the

cross, Jesus
what I wait

added an

commandment. Now, what do you mean?

tell people. Christ was

a minute.

working of
Although he

God&#39;s nature,the law,

was a doer of the

in the

flesh.
of

law, he

was a keeper

the law.
anybody, did

Be, as
he?

the living

oracle, did

not condemn

0
CLINT: Do you feel bound by

.as
"the law" MR. KORESH: No, I never have. You see, the

anymore? _
question may arise, like CLINT: No, speaking of like that. the law in Matthew and understand of the federal court 23 -I&#39;m not just or something

92..-I

I&#39;m speaking-HR. KORESH: N0.

CLINT: HR. KORESH:

in Christian
No.

terms of

the law.

CLINT: Okay.

MR. KORESH:

No. See,

understand that

the

law is
hearts of

something which
men. For

the New
instance, Paul

Testament places
says -the Jews For

in the

instance, like keeping the law, not shadows of. would have Eve kept kept in

in Colossians, Sabbath, the even understanding They were to say was in that the no wise the

have been feast days really were some event. that Adam day And we and as a

new moon, what they prophetic of

the

Sabbath day same Sabbath

that Moses

the wilderness. CLINT: Yeah.

Do you Well, I to

understand? mean, you, a Sunday, happens is you don&#39;t do you? is that -to

attribute the

Sabbath simply HR. KORESH:

No. What

CLINT: &#39;Cause I don&#39;t, and I have that commonality.

would like

I.

Q O
HR. KORESH: Oh, well, sure. But the facts

=4
murderer, he
CLINT: I

are is that if the Paul the Apostle, before he Paul was

-he
~.-an

was a

was a killer
that.

of Christians.

understand

HR. KORESH:

And he

had that

right by

the

civil and, to him. great light.

why persecutest would Christ person

and, and Okay. So

the religious on the way

state. It to Damascus

was given he saw Saul, Saul,

now, why the same bush, it was

In the light,
thou me call himself to Moses - the

Christ, says
pricks. Well, for? Well, the burning

a prick in

that spake

a thornbush,
the that was law, divine

was the

same person

that was
is the

to give

Moses

nature of speaking to You see, when Saul to

God, which

same person

convert Saul. Christ we&#39;re

we accept

accepting forgiveness
Father, forgive
And so we have

based upon
they know
a broad

our ignorance.
not what
area between

them for
to leave

they do.
our

knowledge and have grace.

spirit.

the knowledge And then he says

of God

so that

we might commit my

into thy

hand I

CLINT: My
MR. KORESH:

spirit, okay.
Okay. so now, when we come to

the final
which John

revelation of
the Revelator

Jesus Christ,
receives on

which is that
the Isle of

Patmos, remember,

the Christian

Church

is already

U
established. The Apostolic Church
Spirit. And
~--.

&#39;
from the Day of
that all relations, Ephesians,

as

Pentecost hasbeen given the anointing of the Holy

Philippians, Paul the knowledge things, our should be is aware
bring it

keeps striving of the necessity of

to bring

to the

people the same

unity, speak

foundation is no schism of this, but

about. Well, what

apostles and body. And

prophets, there all Christianity to

in the

they don&#39;thave the power

happens is

John the

Revelator,

like the angel of

other Apostles, Christ and

receives a he gives

message from

the to

specific information you know, Smyrna,

the churches Thyatira, Sardis,

people were

in Asia, Ephesus,

Philadelphia, Laodicea.
well and their works

Now, these
were being

alive and

done in

their day.

But yet,
John, the

the

spirit of

Christ
tell them what

conversed through

Apostle, to

was pleasing

to God

and what

was not.

I mean,

they had

to have some correction, Well, this important as Romans or difference is, up to maturity in is a

didn&#39;t they? revelation of Mark, Luke Ephesians. Well, 4, and this is faith, in to come I will show Christ just and John the where we Chapter up hither, you that which come 4 say, or as

what Matthew, Corinthians or in Chapter

the Christian by the angel

John is informed referring to

heaven, and

OQ
must be off and hereafter. Now, leave the this is where we usually take unwilling behind, because the

:6

subjects brought
~44

to view

within Chapter has been the light a revelation

4, 5, able to of the

and 6 actually

will be

subjects that

no one together in

harmoniously bring challenge they Christ, God 24 elders.

present. Here&#39;s on a throne, a

of Jesus a jury of saw

judicial system,

The same

living creatures

that Isaiah

in vision
this chapter,

in Chapter 6 of
Chapter And they 4 of say God

Isaiah are brought to view in

Revelation. is holy,
is the

holy, holy.
creator of

We see
all

in the

Verse

ll that

this God

things. This
the Christian speaks of.

is the

one and

only true

God spoken
that Christ

of by

Church, and Now, if

this is

the God

it&#39;s true that in

the Apostle to

John&#39;s writings

that Christ

consistently referred

his doctrine
we have

not being

his own
that

but his

father&#39;s, then
to the

to understand

a revelation

gentiles, there

is to

be another

revelation of

Jesus

Christ which

God gives

to him.
in the latter days. The

So there&#39;s no excuse

God in
my father,

Chapter 5,
has a

Verse 1,
book in

the father,
his right

your father
hand and

and

it&#39;s sealed

with seven away from which must

seals. And this book. be after

here&#39;s why many so Because the

people turn that in that

mighty angel,

John&#39;s day, question will

O O
judiciary system to all those who are holy in heaven

=1
seven

who isworthyopen this bookandto loose to the

seals thereof?
Mi

CLINT: Let
here. How believe do you that John feel

me, let
about John

me ask

you a question
one, do was you

- Number that he

wrote Revelations,

inspired to

write it? HR. KORESH:

CLINT: when

Well -he was

Z
on the island?

MR. KORESH:
of trouble.

If he

wasn&#39;t, then I&#39;m ina lot

CLINT: Yeah,

Ithink

--

M. KORESH:
CLINT: Is

But what
that what

happened is
you feel?

-Do you

believe that,

though?
HR. KORESH: Yeah. Well,
reason. In

I know

it as

fact. And

here&#39;s another

Corinthians --

CLINT: Well, some questions at least of interest

okay. Just

Iguess

I&#39;ve got resolve, or

that I&#39;d like to but --

not resolve
MR. KORESH:

through you
Sure.

CLINT: Now, there make -of it

to hear those who

your viewpoint say that, you know, that

on it. that they so much

are say

that John

when he
in visions

wrote this
that he

was contained

received. And

I&#39;ve also heard or

read in

various writings

that

Q
throughout your life you&#39;ve had various find
-..-A

.as
dream things between the
own?

where you&#39;ve visions, too. Do you, you been given do

an analogy
and your

visions or

dreams that

John

had

HR. KORESH:
states is what John

Well, remember
states and is there

that what
for any

John
man to

read. John
the Isle

clearly states
of Patmos he heard

to the
a voice

church that
behind him,

while on
as a

sound of write the

are, and

a trumpet, things which

the things

and from

that point seen, the

John is told things which

to

thou has
which shall

be hereafter.

CLINT: Okay. seven churches. and to Do you

Now, John feel a

was writing

to the write

responsibility to

whom do you feel

MR. KORBSH:

the responsibility
Well, it&#39;s not a matter

to write?
of

comparising myself that John

John states

with John. stated what

he wrote

The point John has

to the

of

it

is is

has already
that after

stated, and
Asia

churches of

their independent
Christ, which

counsel given
is known as the

to him
Holy Spirit,

by the

angel of
that

we see

John is

told by

the same

angel to

be shown

a vision

up

hither, and
judgment which book in the
the seven

the events of that

questions who right hand
churches are

vision then tell of_a

is worthy to open this Now, that
informed of.

of God.
to be

is something
But --

CLINT: Okay,

but where

does David

come into

I i

IO
this, yourself?
MR. XORESH: Well, what

:9
y
happens is --

CLINT: No,
92...4

I, I

mean --

I guess

I&#39;m talking

personally.
MR. XORESH: In Chapter 22.

CLINT: No,

I&#39;m, I&#39;m you talking

and I

personally, where
Revelation and

were you
your knowledge

first introduced
and your

into
study and

where -believe you

feel

at what

point did

you feel insight? In

feel that

you had

-- did

you you

had additional
Do you

essence, do
-feeling. is

your knowledge? MR. KORESH: CLINT: --

Well, it&#39;s your work in

not a there is,

inspired, is Revelation, to
chapter?

given to deal with

you, or

what, what

brought you other

to

that more

than any

HR. XORESH:

Well, that&#39;s

not, that&#39;s

not --

CLINT: That,
you back to the rest of

that leads
the scriptures?
Okay. Well,

you back,

that leads

MR. KORESH: thing. Remember,

Christ. CLINT: Understood.

see, here&#39;s the of who? Jesus

it&#39;srevelation a

MR. XORESH:
what reason? To show

Who gave
to his

it to

him? God.

For

servants.

CLINT: All

right, now,

where, where

--

92

V MR. KORESH: In -CLINT: -do you feel, where do you feel,

40

David -,_-a

And I&#39;m asking this feel you

you feel -be --

in all the concept

-- I

sincerity. Where of a trinity?

you feel the

do you
Where do yourself to

stand in

What role Are you

mean, do Are you

a prophet?

Christ? Where

-- who

is David?

MR. KORESH:

Well, remember

Matthew 24?

Remember the about the

were rejecting

counsel that

your Lord

gave the the religious

disciples leaders

temple? In
Christ and
CLINT: In

Matthew 23,

his teachings,

weren&#39;t they?

Matthew 23?

MR. KORESH:

Right. Ye

hypocrites, you

scribes and little talk

everything.

Pharisees, you there. .He

know, all called them

of that vipers and

nice

CLINT: Where MR. KPRESH: I&#39;m just --

are you

at in

23? my Bible with me.

I don&#39;t have

CLINT: Oh, okay. I,

going to follow with
M. KORESH: Christ spake the, the Verse l sit -in the hypocrisy. He there he says,

I do, so I was just

that&#39;s all right.
in Matthew he begins Like, for to, to 23 upbraid

you, but

Okay. Well, temple and says -you know, and Pharisees

instance, in they

the Pharisees, sit in

the scribes

Moses seat,

6 &#39;92 I

OO
right?
CLINT: Umhum.

.1

MR. KORESH:
=4

They think

they&#39;re equal

to

Hoses, that do,

don&#39;t they? but do

CLINT: Do

He says not as
not

whatever they for they

bid you say and

to do do not.

they do

HR. KORESH: upon men

will not

And then

they bind

heavy burdens

grievous to
lift them

be borne, which
with

they themselves You

one of
them all land and

their fingers.
through there. sea to convert

know, he

begins to

tell go over

They proselyte, and when son of men were knowledge.

one,

they convert hell more

him they

make him

- son

to hell, See, these

than they

themselves are. opinions of

teaching their

their scriptural

CLINT: Okay.

Then we ye called

get down rabbi, for

to 8,

though, one is

where we
your master

read but
--

be not

nn. KORESH: CLINT:

HR. KORESH: themselves shall

Right. and all

A brethren.

-Christ

ye are
And those

brothers.
who exalt

be abased.

CLINT: Okay.

Now --

&#39; ma. KORESH: Okay. CLINT: through, work David, stay with me and, and work

through this

with me.

IQ
HR. KORESH:
CLINT: Is

42
Okay. y
David the Christ?

MR. KORESH:
~41

Well, the sent mine

root and

offspring of what&#39;s

David. I,

Jesus, have

angel. That&#39;s

stated in
things in

Revelation 22,
the churches.

right? To
I am the root,

show unto

you these
I

which means

came before, morning star. Philadelphia he things sayeth

that have
can shut.

and the offspring That&#39;s why the in says to he which

the key

of David,

the bright

message to Church these is true, he

the Philadelphian is holy, he which

of David,

he that

opens and

no man

CLINT: Okay. MR. KORESH: you know in Psalms -Shut and no man can open. Now,

CLINT: Is,

is your

basic premise,

is your

basic premise

then if

you have
No. What

the key

you must

be him?

MR. KORESH: one but he has the key.

happens is .

this. No

CLINT: And, HR. KORESH: See, in Matthew 23

and do Well, that

you have

the key? be seen.

remains to them O,

Christ tells

Jerusalem,

Jerusalem, thou are sent

you together not -See, the

which

are known How often

as the I would

prophets

that

into thee.
as a hen

have gathered
and you would

gathers chicks with Israel.

problem is

Israel won&#39;t

*u

Q
listen to
Behold, your a temple
xi

Ithe prophets,
house

you know.

-- you

would not. good is the one

has left you

desolate. What temple reject

if the

people

of the

whereby the
the earthly
there? If
The word

temple is

to be

built for?

What good is
of God are they is not rejecting?

building when
they reject
of God made flesh.

the spirit Christ, who

CLINT: And

I look

in Matthew

23:34 where

it

said I

send unto

you prophets

and wise

men and

scribes.
them

MR. KORESH:

Scribes and

you&#39;ll stone

and kill
upon you

them and
may come

persecute them
all the

from city
upon the

to city,
earth
to the

but

blood shed
the blood

from righteous son of

the alter.

Abel to

of Zechariah

Barachiah who

they

slew between

the porch

and

CLINT: Um-hum. MR. KORESH:

Definitely. They
in
see that

didn&#39;t accept So it
shall
Lord.

Zechariah&#39;s message
says you say blessed shall not is he
CLINT: Yes. MR. KORESH:

his day,

either. Okay.
until you
the name of the

me henceforth
cometh in

Now, if
come in

they don&#39;t listen to

the name of the Lord, they

person who
won&#39;t know.

claims to

CLINT: You,

you know what I

what we

run into

a lot agent

of times,

David, and

question

as an FBI

U 4". .

I "
many times is that over the, you know, 25 years or so
I&#39;ve encountered a lot of people who have_either

44

claimed that
-. .4

they functioned

under some type of

divine

guidance

--

MR. KORESH:

Divine inspiration,

yeah.

CLINT: And I guess the you and I and

I can
say, you

inspiration, whatever always ask

it might

be.

question I everybody else

me says

is some day when the Lord

at us
my

stands before

and
and

part of
know, I

he&#39;s going look to

my prophets,

kept sending

messengers to

you and

everytime I

did that

you didn&#39;t

hear what they

for them,

had to
someplace else

say and you had something else

for them
have we

to go

and their

word

wasn&#39;t heard.

In essence,

seen many

messengers

that have
or very

come and

their message

has gone

unanswered,

few messengers?

MR. KORESH:
We need He wrote to listen of Christ, CLINT: Yes,
MR. KORESH:

Well, let

me, let
the best

me state this.
we can, right?

to Matthew

didn&#39;t he? he did.

We need to listen to Mark, Luke

and John Acts states

first. You

know,

we need

to listen

to

what _

&#39;cause we know on

the Day

of Pentecost

those that
sons of

believed
God. The

him to

they gave

ye power

to become
be

Pentecost was

something to

undenied, correct?

And we see the

conversion of

the

I_

Q
Apostle Paul Christ, claiming and the mighty works he did none power to himself

&#39;
in the but only unto

45
name of

God. And then we see

w._~O

Romans, how Paul says I am not

of Christ for it&#39;s the power of

ashamed of
God.

the gospel

I mean, reasoning of
Everyone that

the gospel

of Christ of God
is more

is not

the

men, it&#39;sthe power

believes. Christ

unto salvation.
than just a

preacher. Christ is something

We need Jerry Falwell Koresh or to hear

is more than that is more. So

just a we read
because how

teacher. Christ all the

do we know or David anymore

New -

them first, or Pat

Robertson or can really told? are going

Oral Roberts tell us

Steve Schneider

than what&#39;s already been So we finally come to the Book

to all

eventually

of Revelation,

aren&#39;t we? And in that

book we&#39;re going to

going to be a

find

that what

must be

hereafter is
that God gave

revelation of

Jesus Christ

to him,
that you

and it&#39;sgoing to
and every other man

be according
in this

to seven
world can

seals
see

pertains to
forth.

a red

horse, black

horse, red,

pale, and

so

CLINT: And,

and I&#39;vealso got

responsibility to

be able

to discern

false prophets.

MR. KORESH:
CLINT: Be

Exactly.
that an Oral Roberts or be that

!
46

anyone else may believe

mentioned Pat
~.-4

who might or may

--

Jimmy Swaggert
You know, you

or whatever
you

one

not believe.

Robertson. I,

know, I with you

don&#39;t want to and I, but I

find

a ground

that is

not common

enjoy his

teachings.
H. XORESH:
CLINT: You

on, I
know.

do,

too.

um. xonssa:
men --

Don&#39;t get me wrong.

These

CLINT: You&#39;ve got to I&#39;m, I&#39;m a very basic King

understand, you of Christian.

know,

James type

MR. KORESH:

Fundamentalist. And

that&#39;s

good. CLINT: But

versions of the Bible
HR. KORESH:

there are
that one
Translations.

so many
can use,

different
but --

CLINT: in King James.

-but

I like ~
The Bible

-- I&#39;mvery comfortable

MR. KORESH:

of the

Reformation --

CLINT: And
MR. KORESH:

I haven&#39;t gotten away

The Bible of the

from that.

Reformation is

one of

the most

-- When

you go
you read

to Israel

and study

with
--

the greatest

rabbis and
CLINT: Yeah.

their translations

HR. KORESH:

- it&#39;s

almost word

for word

King James.

That should

tell you

something.

&#39;

I0
CLINT: Well, you know what Ihave to, what

4-
I

have to

work with
one,

is you&#39;ve spoken to
Ijust

many people
more

here

and, number
v.-.1

don&#39;t want to be one

person. I understand and everyone everyone out

want you that I&#39;m in there.

to hear

my voice

and Iwant

you to you for you

concerned, truly But Ihave all of

concerned with similar concerns Ibelieve

here and

mankind that

do. And yet, Ispeak to other FBI agentsyou&#39;ve spoken

to, David, and I try very hard to understand you. to read here in some of your me, but I&#39;ve had opportunity an writings, none I have. of which I have

front of of the

And I&#39;ve been told they feel

by some

other agents you&#39;ve

you&#39;ve spoken that to identified yourself

at times Christ or

as the

the lamb

of God.

Now, I

am not saying that&#39;s true. not

HR. KORESH: We don&#39;t know.

I&#39;m saying --

CLINT: I&#39;m saying I,

and to move on from that point as

Ineed
to who

a point
you are.

to begin

MR. KORESH: Okay. Christ

David, that&#39;s what he once he opens no says, right? shut. Do
Iunderstand

has the
He can

key of
open, and

man can

you understand?
that.

CLINT: David,

MR. KORESH: 11 real quick and

Okay. So

let&#39;s turn to Psalms David of old

got me a

let&#39;s see what King

stated while Bible now,

under inspiration. okay?

Okay. I&#39;ve

7 3

P. Q
CLINT: Okay. HR. KORESH: And I&#39;ll go -I y won&#39;t quote,

.8
I&#39;ll just read it right out of the King

I&#39;ll just read,

James.

CLINT: Okay,
to Psalms.

wait a

minute. I&#39;mgoing over

MR. KORESH:

This is

Psalms.

CLINT: Okay,
got to understand, my MR. KORESH:
CLINT: Yes.

I know.

I&#39;m in Psalms. You&#39;ve

worn, so good. --

Bible&#39;s pretty Well, that&#39;s

I

MR. KORESH: someone comes

Ilike

that. a Christian

It&#39;s bad for 20,

when 30 years

that&#39;s been

and they&#39;ve got a

open up.

nice crisp

one and

the pages

won&#39;t

CLINT: It&#39;s,
because I&#39;ve writtan in so

it&#39;s hard to read

much.

in mine

MR. KORESH: That&#39;s even better.

CLINT: I&#39;m in Psalms MR. KORESH: Okay. Okay, 11, David. Psalms ll over

here. I&#39;ve got one

thin paper.
CLINT: As

of these kind that has

that real

does mine.

M. KORESH: which Chronicles

David states in the

Okay. Now, Kings, and

I my

David was

inspired, 11
the

tell you,
Lord put

in Psalms

trust. Now,

0 . 92

O
question is
we believe right?
92..~a

.
was he
he was

49
I mean,
his offspring,

serving the
because Christ

right Lord?
came as

we,

CLINT: Well,

when he

says in

the Lord

then

he&#39;s referring -- do
MR. XORESH: End of Tape #229.!

you believe

he&#39;s referring to God?

--

He&#39;s referring

K I

Q
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF

Q 1
THE TREASURY

BUREAU OF

ALCOHOL, TOBACCO

& FIREARMS

vii

TAPE #230

4/15/93
7:33 P.M. - 8:17 P.M.

I
Tape 230

5 2
MR. KORESH: - Asians and David sees things
nature. Okay. say he to my "In the soul flees Lord, put a bird all my to your

of heavenly
--ad

trust. How

mountain." Ofcourse, themountain that David resided

on was Mount Zion. Correct?

CLINT: That&#39;s correct.

MR. KORESH: wicked bend their bow. Then David They have says "For fitted their lo, the arrow

upon the upright

string that at heart."

they may Okay. Well,

privately shoot if the

at the

foundations be
What are these is in

destroyed, what foundations that

can the

righteous do?

David&#39;s talking

about? The

Lord

his holy
in heaven.

temple.
Is that

Is that
true? In

true? The
Revelation 4

Lord&#39;s throne is
and 5,

David&#39;s offspring,

Christ, is

in heaven.

He takes

the

book from right hand of father, andit the the was that
Christ who gave David
CLINT: Now,
to Revelations 4 and
MR. KORESH:

his kingdom,
David, you
5. Now,
Uh-huh.

who anointed
just, you

David.

just went
now.

I&#39;m in Revelations 4

CLINT: And MR. KORESH:

it. Let&#39;s,

where are Well,

you? Iwas
11.

just referring

to

let&#39;s finish Psalms

CLINT: Well, reference, though,

okay. When I&#39;m going to go

you give to the

me a reference,

C 3
because --

MR. KORESH: CLINT:

s.-pl

Okay. like to stay with you.

-I

MR. KORESH:
to the reference after

All right.
we

Well, then
Psalm. This
that we

we&#39;ll go
-can

finish the
foundation so

I&#39;m showing you this

know that David knew

is a
what

he was and I,

talking about. I&#39;ve just, over the

CLINT: I

know,

years, you

know, have really

and instructing. something, I,

tried to

stay with one

And when they make eyes to see

whose teaching reference to

the word.

I really

want my

MR. KORESH: 11, "The is in Lord is in his

Okay. So holy temple.

in Verse

4 of

Psalms

The Lord&#39;s throne try the but

heaven. His

eyes behold, Lord tryeth

his eyelids

children of
the wicked

men. The
in him

the righteous,
violence his

that loveth

soul hated.

Upon the

wicked he

shall rain

snares, fire tempest. This

the righteous

and shall be
Lord loveth

brimstone and
portion of

the horrible
their cup, for

the

righteousness and
upright." Okay.
So in

his countenance

doth behold

the

the Book

of Revelation,

where all

the

books of

the Bible

meet and
and ends in the

end there,
Book of

every prophetic
Revelation,

utterance meets

we&#39;re going

to see.

In Revelation,

Chapter 4,

John is

>, .

92 e

D
told by his accompanying angel to
This is
. .~Q

Q 4
come up hither and
Verse 1.
4, Verse
"And the

envision. John beholds a door wasopen in heaven.

Chapter 4,
CLINT: Chapter
MR. KORESH:

1.
first voice which I

heard was

as it

were of

a trumpet

talking with says come

me," up hither

It&#39;s loud and clear, and I Must be. will show

right? "which which must hope is

must be? Must be.

thee things

be hereafter."

Every Christian
CLINT: It MR. KORESH:

in this.

CLINT: Therefore,
MR. KORESH: It will

it will
be. It

be?
is. And

immediately I,
throne was

John, "was
in heaven."

in the
What must

spirit and
be? A

behold a
throne in

heaven. And he that was jasper and studies of

as the

one sitting set upon a --

on a the throne

throne. Must was to

be. "And look upon as a in your

stone." Now,

I&#39;m sureyou know God is

the Psalms
rock, correct? CLINT:
M. KORESH:

and Prophets

referred to

That&#39;s correct,
"And there

David.
was a rainbow round

about the
there&#39;s no

throne, in
reason to

fact like
be confused

unto to
here.

an emerald."

So

CLINT: Okay. significance of the colors

Now, what, show, when

what do we go

you say from a

the --

&#39; &#39;1

I
from jasper
green?

Q 5
which -to an emerald, from
there in

a yellow
--

to a

What, what

significance is

MR. KCRESH: Well, actually,

~-Q

in the
of the

Aramaic

manuscript, which disciples, Christ, copies were substance of

is the and in

actual language the time emphasis is things work

when the

original the Ezekiel

written, the how these

implied upon according to

4. Now,
of the

you see,
dust of

we&#39;re dealing with mankind

on earth, correct?

who&#39;s made

the earth,

CLINT: Umhum.

MR. KORESH:

But when

we deal

with the

redeemed body
brilliancies of

or the

celestial body,

we&#39;re dealing with

creation that

man, without

understanding the foundations of

like, for

formulas of the City of God,

Ezekiel 28

creation, such how the stones are,

as the

12

instance, in

Lucifer had

these 9

stones as

his covering, is is

such as that

in -the high

For instance, priest on to do his

better illustration chest wore

with the

these 12
substance of

stones. It
creation, what

has something
man

physiologically is So what

made out I do

of. get into those deeper

before I

things with
things of
beautiful stones

my students,
the obvious,

as Igo
such as
as a

into the
these brilliant,
rock. It

more simpler

show God

doesn&#39;t say

he

was a

jasper or

-- stone,

but

the prophet

was implying

kg

I
that as the brilliancies of these brilliant, or
~--U

I6
polished which were more so, than these. But he&#39;ssolid,

used in their day jewelry ornamentGod as for or is is

he&#39;s hard.

And the rainbow round

and a -stone.

thing of

it is throne that

it says

he saw

this

about the
You see?
CLINT: Um-hum.

was like

a jasper

MR. KORESH:

A rainbow

that was

like

an

emerald. Okay. so God is grand

So, so doer, God this God This is

the keynote is powerful.

is that

well, okay, no

This is a defaulted high. You

slouchy God, dress code.

here does the highest judge than

throne is

not have of the this. Okay?

like unto

can&#39;t get any higher

rainbow round about the

And this
to an

emerald. Now,

we know

that

a rainbow

is created

by the

refraction of
In the word. We

light, but,

really, the

lesson is

simple.
by his

beginning of know that

CLINT: Um-hum.

time, God by faith.

made everything Okay?

MR. KORESH:

And then

the time

came when

God

spake to end to

his servant all things that I

Noah and

God said

I will

bring

an

have made.

CLINT: Understood.

MR. KORESH: world at large says no,

I&#39;ll bring

a flood.

And the did. An

you won&#39;t. And he

v s 92

.3 1" 7

impossible thing
The laws of creation

to place

in the

reversal of
far beyond

creation.
what man

were broken

could comprehend
92. ~11

the laws after the destroy all

to stand flood I

upon. And will never

so then bring

God says again a And man, and says

could.

to Noah flood and as he yes, he

flesh upon to wonder the obvious

the earth. and question was that God

progressed, began will, cause

CLINT: But the world would be

then how, destroyed the Well, the

how did next time?

he tell

us that

MR. KORESH:

keynote is,

is this,

before we then they

get into began to

that point. build a plan to

The point tower. Their

is is

that

modem of doom, what

salvation, their

escape impending

they thought
upon their
the Tower

to be

a judgment

of God,

was totally

based

own confusion,
of Babel

and that&#39;swhat was

called

CLINT: Right. MR. KORESH:

._ So the rainbow is a memorial of

God&#39;s word. And if

we turn

away from

God&#39;s word and and

to the known as
we believe
a

God&#39;s will, we&#39;re going conjure to

thoughts about God

up ideals

that are be a
this is
Clint? And

not according a system

God that

truth,

and we&#39;regoing to Babylon. So in, right,

throne and

part of
the one

here, Brother

this God

sits on

rainbow, there&#39;s a

a memorial

of his

II

IO
everlasting covenant, his word. Okay? Now --

8
I&#39;d likebe to
whole purpose
in a very

CLINT: Now, as, as we go,

able to
sari

answer you,
to understand.

too, you
And I

know. My
see you

here was

comfortable teaching

position, and

I think

that&#39;s,
I&#39;d back and

that&#39;s where you&#39;re most comfortable. like to

forth, also.
MR. KORESH: Sure. Go ahead.

And yet, we go

have the

chance to

interact as

CLINT: Okay? I sense that If, if

No, that&#39;s okay.

It&#39;s just

I,

you&#39;re asking a question, you&#39;re making a statement,

but you&#39;re I want to

not --

understand that
question and into the
back.

and go
I&#39;m thinking

on. But
of before I

if you&#39;re asking
my reaction can give to it,

a
you&#39;re

next sentence

the reaction

MR. KORESH: that I made was is that

about his CLINT: Yes,

Okay. So this God

the point, definitely

he?

the point has a

memorial round

throne, doesn&#39;t he does.

M. KORESH: world to an end once and

He is the he can

God who do it 24 elders

brought the he?

again, can&#39;t sitting around

CLINT: He&#39;s got the

him --

MR. KORESH: judiciary here.

Exactly. the

Now, we seats are

have a found 4 and 20

"And upon

.*

09
elders sitting clothed in white raiment, and they had

on their heads crownsgold, too." Sothese people of

are highly
s--Q

esteemed in throne sees this is

this judiciary

system. "And and voices." the flood. before the

out

of the So we know there

lightnings, thunderings the God lamps of who brought fire burning

"And

were seven

throne, which are the seven spirits

of God.

Before the

throne, there was a sea ofglass, likened crystal. to

And in the midst of the throne and round about the

throne were
The first calf, the

four beasts
beast is third beast like a

full of

eyes before

and behind.
a the

lion, second face of

beast like man, and

has the

fourth beast

was like
You know,

a flying
this is

eagle."
one of the subjects that

Isaiah 6 four beasts

brings to had each

view in of them

Isaiah&#39;s prophecy. six wings about him

"And the and

they

were full

of eyes
holy, holy,
is, and is to

within and
holy, Lord
come."

they rest

not day

and

night, saying
which was,

God Almighty,

CLINT: Okay,
future, the past.

there

we&#39;re talking
the --

about the

We&#39;re talking about The God

MR. KORESH: time, past, beasts give

the throne
elders fall

who&#39;s incharge of when those to him that sat

4 and 20
the throne

all

present, and glory, honor,

who lives
down before

future. "And and thanks

forever and
him that

on

ever, the
sat on

and

5.

92

>

worshiphim thatliveth forever and everand cast their

crowns before Lord, to the throne, saying thou and honor art worthy oh, receive glory and power, for thou

10

has created
an-1 were created."

all things.

And for

thy pleasure

they all

So the
matter
must be

subject is
this is definitely

obvious in

the simple
of what

in that

a revelation
event of

hereafter is

an awesome

God residing

on his
of this,

throne and
to be

the prestige

of being
in

a participant
a small glimmer

able to

even realize

of the to clarify
him that
the back

authority of when it
sit on
side sealed

this God. says "And

Then the I saw

a book

subject begins right hand of

in the
written within

the throne
with seven

and on

seals.

Now, why there a jury

does God

sit on the reason I saw

a throne? being is a strong

Why is there&#39;s angel

there? Well, to be
with

a question
proclaiming

asked. "And
a loud voice."

CLINT: Do
Gabriel?

you believe

that to

be the

Angel

MR. KORESH: opinion on

small.

Well, if

I was opinions are

to give

you an

it, you

know, our

very, very

CLINT: Well,

I mean,

do you

feel --

If you

said it

would be

an opinion
Well, I

or do

you know
as a

if ---

MR. KORESH:

know it

O0
CLINT: -MR. KORBSH: as a fact? it as a fact. I know

11

CLINT: Okay. MR. KORESH: But the thing of it is is that,

see, if angel was,

statement

I was

to make

a statement well go
that God

that I

knew who that make a

you see what

then I
that I

might as
know who

ahead and
is. Do are.

I&#39;m saying? And who

CLINT: Um-hum.

those 24

elders

MR. KORESH:
are.

And who

those living

creatures

CLINT: Well,

I guess

what, what

- The

question to
know the

me, David,
answer, why
MR. KORESH:

that begs
not give it?

the answer

is if

you
1

Well, because

it wouldn&#39;t

benefit you
well, how

because even
does David

if I

said yes
knows? I

or no,

you&#39;d say
know,

think he

mean, you

it doesn&#39;t make any

CLINT: Well,

difference at
okay.

this point.

MR. KORESH:

When I

start opening

--

CLINT: Getting
does make a difference.

past that,
Okay? It
we talk

just know
does make a

that it

difference. Whatever

about makes

a difference.

MR. KORESH: doesn&#39;t tell you who

correct?

Okay. Well, the angel is at

then scripture this point,

here

,=

Q
CLINT: That&#39;s correct.

Q 1.
-

MR. KORESH: taken a

s.-g

So, therefore,

scripture has too much about the

not

burden to

really emphasize But as we progress

angel. Okay.

on, we&#39;re going to

get more the Father,

these subjects,

emphasis on

the lamb

and the

subjects of Within
up to you,

God,

that we&#39;re giving to

if I&#39;mable to

the lamb.
open them

then you&#39;ll understand more seraphim, God this question. strong angel, the question on the

about the

elders, the who asks he&#39;s a but in heaven

throne, and

this angel

We know he&#39;smighty angel, a and he as to states not on earth who are

all those

in heaven. me ask you this.

one take a very

CLINT: Okay,
How can one differentiate,

David, let
how can

learned Biblical respect Pat

scholar, how Robertson, how

can one can one

take, as

take a

learned

person like open the

that and seven seals

have him -Tome,

explain and you know,

if we to me,

say David,

opening the seven seals is analogous to opening my mind

so I understand --

M. KORESH:
CLINT: --

Exactly.
the content of that. And if one

-If
have the

you -But
academic --

if others

have that

same key,
they have the

they

the ability,

spiritual ability,
that they can open

they, they
my mind

have been
to those

covered

in such
how

seals, then

Q0
does one discern the various prophets?

13
takes place you&#39;ll is
says no
the earth,

MR. KORESH: Well, what

find that
s -i

as we

progress, scripture
neither under

man in
was able

heaven nor

on earth,

to open, then only

neither to

look thereon. 22 is

If

that is

true, states

when Revelation

fulfilled, which

Christ says
every man.

I come,

my reward

is with

me to

give unto

CLINT: Wait
22?

a minute.

You&#39;re in

Revelations

MR. KORESH:
CLINT: Verse?

Revelation 22.

MR. KORESH: Verse 16.

This is

over here

-- Still

in

CLINT: Okay. but, okay. You want

MR. KORESH: "I Jesus have sent

You were to go to 16

in seven, and then

go to

I think, back to
16. to you these

7?

Right. Let&#39;s to testify

mine angel

things in
David, the

the churches.
bright morning CLINT: Now,

I am

the root

and offspring

of

star." Okay? we can also look back in, in --

2:28 --

MR. KORESH:

Okay.

CLINT: -the morning star." So, MR. KORESH:

and we have "Again so we have that twice. Okay. The

I will give

him

promise to

the

ql" I,
churches of Asia. Now, we see here in Verses 7 of

14
dealing with
the City

Chapter 22
water of
s-Q4

the subject
life that CLINT: Wait,

the river,
of God, in Verse

the
right? 7 of

comes from

wait. You&#39;re

what? Of

22?

MR. KORESH:

Twenty-two.

CLINT: Behold he that

book."

I come

quickly. Blessed the prophecy of this

is

keepeth the

sayings of

MR. KORESH:
don&#39;t understand,

And you

can&#39;t keep what you

correct?
CLINT: That&#39;s correct.

MR. KORESH: things and heard them,

Okay. "And and when

I John I had

saw these seen, I

heard and

feel down

to worship

before the
And this

feet of

the angel

which

showed me these things."

that Christ sent, right?

angel is

the angel

CLINT: Okay. -- Is
there to retain there may

Aha do you think is your

can open of the who can
No, there

that Christ this that

one think levels?
one

your interpretation,
is only one who the knowledge be multiples
MR. KORESH:

reading of

the minds seals? Or do it

and allow do you

at various
is only

is, there

lamb --

CLINT: Yeah,
MR. KORESH:

but
- in

-heaven.

&#39; _

Q
CLINT: That&#39;s -- Okay.

I15
And I, I agree with

that, butthen you have can multiple individuals that

can give
~..n

you prayerful, of us who, who

inspired, covered are seeking seems to that be multiple

insight. And type of, people that

for those type of

who are ability to
comes --

knowledge, there
willing and share that.
And even in this

who are

learned and I think

have the our challenge

involved in

And where

situation we&#39;re

right now, is this

David, the person and

challenge comes does he believe what

look

is discerning he says
at Verse 18.

who or --

MR. KORESH:

Well, let&#39;s

CLINT: Okay, honesty, if, person is, lamb, then what may be

let me

say just, the scriptures person, if

just in

all say this

if you&#39;re not who if you&#39;re not that -then who

you&#39;re not the If you&#39;re not a

are you? And if man.

lamb, you prophet, you

a prophet. a con

you&#39;re not a

may he

MR. TJRESH= seven seals, right? CLINT: But M. KORESH=

If I&#39;mtrying to

show you

the

why -Then I&#39;m trying to teach you --

CLINT: But
to show feel on the

the question
Do you --

is why
do it

do you choose
because you

seven seals? are inspired

because you

MR. KORBSH: You see, if people

That way

you&#39;ll know who I like in, in Proverbs

am.

don&#39;t listen,

92

.0
30, where, states very
descended? You
Q.-Q

16
where Solomon clearly who&#39;s says -Well, look at, Solomon ascended to heaven? Who&#39;s
wind in his fists know, who&#39;s bound the

and held What is

the waters

in his

garment? What you can tell?

is his

name?

his son&#39;s name, if CLINT: Okay. MR. KORESH:

And he

says the

word of

the Lord

is pure. CLINT: Okay, and to share with you, but

down to

David, I, I start

I&#39;m hereto listen to pick up that

to you.

you&#39;re talking

me, and No, no,

I won&#39;t do that no, no. No, Clint.

MR. KORESH:

CLINT: And,
me.

and I ask you not to

do that

to

MR. KORESH:
you, but what we&#39;re,

Clint, I&#39;m not talking

what we&#39;re, what we&#39;re,

down to
what we&#39;re

trying to with a

do here, lot of

what&#39;s happening, think they

Clint, is know the

that

people who

scriptures -CLINT: Yes, there are.

MR. KORESH:
CLINT: In

-- every
fact, in fact,

time I

-there are a lot of

people that

do know
CLINT: Wait

the scriptures.
a minute. Wait a minute. The

seven seals
First Peter

are something
that there&#39;s

reserved. Peter
a salvation

says in
that&#39;s reserved in

Q
states wait for the graces
Jesus Christ.

17
to come to you at the
a The seven seals are

heaven for right?For the you, last time. And he _

revelation of
Q-1

subject that

deals with the same

the sin

of the

144,000, and it was Sanhadrian spiritual they came

it&#39;s going to be 2,000 years claimed to insights. They considered to

he made

confrontation that all the to have

ago. All be inspired.

the Pharisees, They claimed

taught portions be prophetic

and pieces

of what

truth, but

when Christ

a testament

far beyond

their reach. has one of the

Now, that&#39;s why Revelation

most greatest See in Verse 18

warnings of of Chapter

any other 22, it

book of says right

18 in 22. "For

the Bible. there -I

CLINT: Wait

a minute,

testify unto prophecy of

things God written in

every man this book,

shall add this book."
MR. KORESH: CLINT: Of

that heareth if any

unto him

the words of

the

man shall add

the plagues

unto these
that are

Serious. course it is.

"MR. KORESH:
from the take away words of his part

"Any if
of

any man shall take

this prophecy, of life

away
God shall and out of

the book out of

the book

the holy
this book."
and it is

city and

from the

things

which are

written
this book,

in

We cannot
almost a

add our

opinions to

foolish statement

for someone

to say

:&#39; _.

0 18
they know the meaning of this book unless they are 100

percent sure God theyknow the with that meaning.

CLINT: Do
mi

you think

there are
of this

others, David,

that understand

the meanings

book? I&#39;ve traveled

things that&#39;s got

MR. KORESH:
all around the world

Absolutely not.
and one of the

me into seals, they start where

the most

trouble is

is that

I began

to open

the

see these it starts.

things. You It says

see, we&#39;ve got to "He that testifieth

these things quickly. And

40 Isaiah said

says surely what does

the Lord

I come he bring?

quickly."

Icome Isaiah
strong

His reward.
with a

will come

hand, his
what is

reward is
his work?

with him,
Gathers his

his work
flock like

before him.
a shepherd.

I mean,

in the

latter part

of Isaiah,

the

Lord proclaimed
thy salvation
we see that Christ

to the
cometh, his

end of

the world,

saying through
Imean,
man, zero,

reward is

with him.
that no

receives reward

not, can

reveal. John

couldn&#39;t reveal

it. He

could

only reveal in scripture, warning.

the skeleton for men In the

of the to take

structure that heed to the final -- Look

and all

would be

days of
there

the Apostles
in Philippians

there in
the

Corinthians, look

different writings, rose up saying that

there were they were

all

kinds of

people who God, they had

inspired of

spiritual insights.

But the acid test

is the

opening of

the

seals, bringing to men a knowledge that God had

1--IQ

declared tohis servantsthe prophets, harmonizing the prophetic teachings the perspective seal to and trumpet
as foundin Revelations Chapters 6 and Chapters and 8
so forth.

CLINT: And I guess from that, David, that I

find there are teachersand thereare preachersand

there arescholars ofthe book that in, in academic an

way can open those seals -Okay. MR. KORESH:

CLINT: -- as far as the understanding of the seals. You know, I, you know,to me, you know, I&#39;ve,

I&#39;ve heardit&#39;s saidthat you have said, in that been

fact, that we aresomewhere between the fifth seal or

the sixth seal.

MR. KORESH: I didn&#39;t that. say

CLINT: Okay. Tell me -- Okay. That, that

would helpme. Haveyou opened fifth seal? Do you the feel that the fifth seal has been opened,if you don&#39;t
want to ascribe it to yourself?

MR. KORESH: Well, now, wait a

the seals
N CLINT:

minute, Clint,

here&#39;s the statement,okay? Now,remember that next

are first opened
Um-hum. .

in heaven -,

MR. KORESH: as subjects presented before --

:; I
20

the judiciary

throne. The

lamb on

the sea

of glass

opens all seven seals.

opened,
~~-Q

when the seventh seal is

about the angel at the

a truth

is revealed

alter, and
When the subject is Christ. This and of

then begins a revelation

seventh trumpet the kingdoms world had sounds in of this world

of the

trumpets.
the his our Lord a &#39;

Revelation 11, and of kingdoms of open up where

become the

his Christ.

And then the sanctuary

begins to in heaven

mystery about comes out

manchild who
iron.

a woman the
of

and she
was to

is the
rule all

one that
nations

brought forth
with a rod

And the

dragon makes

war against

the woman

and the

dragon was

cast down,

because the

manchild is

taken up God his throne. to to

CLINT: All right. You know, David, you&#39;re

in Chapter
talks about

11. Now,
the two
MR. KORESH:

in Chapter
witnesses -Um-hum.

ll, Verse

3, where

it

CLINT: --

there are

some who

say those

two

witnesses may encountered a

have been number of

Moses and years ago

Elijah. Now, a couple,

I&#39;ve a husband

and wife,
indicated

who in
that they

a place

called Jasper,
were --

Arkansas,
I don&#39;t know if
and Keith them?

were, they
them. They

you&#39;ve ever heard of Higler phonetic

were Kate hear of

sp.!. Did

you ever

Ki l
/92.

v ,.,_ 2 1

iMR.KORESH: NO. I
CLINT: Okay. a number
~-vi

They had fact, they prophesied for

spent, they had said the 1,203

had spent they had score

of years

-- In

traveled and
days.

they had

MR. KORESH:

Clothed

in sack

cloth?

CLINT: Yes.

Yes. And

they felt

that they

had been

inspired to of in

do this, this and

that

they were their own they them and

they have

the two way, you, if you

to say,

witnesses spoken confronted society you know,

listen to

had, in

at that

time. And tape of

hear what

-If

I&#39;ve seen video a

them and if you

they sound,

in their

own way,

in their

own knowledge

and interpretations of the scriptures,

these same their own guaranteeing people in death at the their followers this particular hands_of the that, as

very lucid.
case brought authorities, in Revelations

And
about

Chapter ll,
would happen

Verse 9, that in
to them. MR. KORESH: CLINT: Well,

three-anda-half days

what

What happened? I mean, what, what does the

scripture say
have happened?

would happen and what do you think would

MR. KORESH: resurrect, did they?

No, we

know they

didn&#39;t

CLINT: No, they didn&#39;t, David, but they

92

QO
believed -believed what they -I honestly, totally believe they they said.
Exactly. believed what
and if one would

2.
they said.
hear their

MR. KORESH:
~.-A

CLINT: They
one would hear them

And if

teachings and to this

what they

had gone

through in between their

their life life and

point and

the analogies

the scriptures,
understandable, they,
that. But

one could

say that&#39;s, that&#39;s

that they would believe

they -true.

it wasn&#39;t

MR. KORESH:

No,

it

wasn&#39;t.

CLINT: Three-and-a-half still in the ground.

MR. KORESH: Um-hum. And

days later

they were

still so.

CLINT: And but -I don&#39;t know where

still -her

Well, one ashes are,

was cremated, but the other

is

still in

the ground.
MR. KORESH: CLINT: And it&#39;s sad, isn&#39;t it? number of

Well, it&#39;s,

it&#39;s sad in a

different

ways.

It&#39;s --

I, I

guess

as a

Christian I

like to
there are are divinely

think that
those out

people have
there who I do

the insight
really feel mine and

and that
their lives_ as I believe

inspired, as

you, you

know, yours

is, too.

But it&#39;s the --

What&#39;s

the purposeof that inspiration and what areour lives

to accomplish? And that, you know, is it, you know, to

f.
/"92

1
,

D0
me it&#39;s greater a
growing more

23
knowledge of the scriptures,
-- It&#39;s -- In

it&#39;s
an

Christ-like. That&#39;s

earthly example,
92-C

it&#39;s setting

an example

for my

wife

and for

my children. You know, I, I can, you know, I can name off

for you
and that

the various

things that
for in my

I believe
life and

to be

true

I&#39;m responsible accomplish as on a can do level as and I If I

I&#39;m But, you know,

supposed to those are much I X in

a Christian. a man, you know,

there&#39;s so I can accomplish that&#39;s my

understand that. lead people to Christ,

my life.

responsibility. If
that&#39;s my responsibility. But
know, I&#39;m one of that, that&#39;s that or -- I

I&#39;m a missionary

to

share the

word,

is it

to believe
the two

that I&#39;m one of,

this case, on me, in that

you
no, to say way.

witnesses? In that laid

haven&#39;t had that or

to believe

to function

MR. LQRESH: they probably

Chapter 11

Right. Well,

the persons the fact that before

a part

--

totally renounced
is brought to view,

which is

of the

sixth trumpet book being

a mystery

which interjects opened, the

of God that he clearly, in brought to a rock with

Chapter 10,

the little was

the

seven thunders
declared to Zechariah view, revolving seven eyes

being uttered
his servants these two around the

prophets. Now, witnesses are subject of

and a candlestick

0 24
saying this might nor is the by power, word of the Lord -- saying seven eyes the same not by of by my spirit the say about Zechariah had
92--A

&#39;" /1

somewhat to
4 and S.

revelation

of Revelation

So if

whatever Zechariah

had to

say is

true,

about the would write

that God

rock with

seven eyes,

God saying then it

and he

that he true
a book

engraving thereof,
will sit on a throne

must be
does have

and he

did write

it and

it would

be given

to the

lamb

who has If the

see, then

seven eyes, way Christ

we have

which are sees is

the seven the way

spirits of

God.

we&#39;re supposed to
thoroughly the seven be

to understand the events

seals. Otherwise,

of Chapter

11 will

misinterpreted, just
4, 3, 2, 1.

like Chapters

10, 9,

8, 7,

6, 5,

The Revelation

of Jesus

Christ which

God gave

to him

is nothing

other than

that. There
latter reign, and the to the

is one
which subject will prophets by is to

final

revelation of come in the revelation of

Christ, the end of the world

be a the

Christ according

hand of the lamb himself. Thatfs

when Christ
come in he tells

why in Matthew 24
many shall
shall deceive -me skip over

forewarns of
my name them that
CLINT: Now,

false prophets,
am Christ, shall say

saying I if they

many,

wait, let

me, let

here. You&#39;re

in Matthew

--

f92

*5 Ow
MR. KORESH: Twenty-four.
CLINT: -24.

25
_
Let me turn over there real

MR. KORESH:
sup

quick, too. CLINT: Okay.

David? &#39;

And what

verse are

you at,

MR. KORESH: doke. He&#39;s just gone

right?
CLINT: Um-hum.

Let me out of

get it the temple

over here. in Verse

Okey 1,

MR. KORESH: He&#39;d already proclaimed that the

house was
they don&#39;t

desolate in
listen to

Chapters 23,
the prophets,

because, you
right?

know,

CLINT: Okay. to 39,

Is that

Well, I

mean, if

you go

back

"Behold your
what --

house is

left unto

you desolate."

MR. KORESH:

Okay. All

right. Now,

in

Chapter 24, temple. His buildings of temple, Lord? things?

Jesus went

out and

departed from to show

the him the

disciples came the temple. He said

to him Isn&#39;t this

a beautiful all these not be left

to them you,

"See not there shall

verily I

say unto

here one

stone upon another." H

CLINT: Okay.
M. KORESH:

Has that
Oh, definitely.

happened yet,
Definitely.

though?

The temple was destroyed 70 AD. in

92

1
CLINT: No, no. I mean, do

U 26
you see an

analogy between
Do we have --

another temple

that need

be destroyed?

92....,p

MR. KORESH:

Well, instead

of getting

into

the theological

deciphering of

what Christ

is saying,

let&#39;s just simply pretend there with

the Mount

that we&#39;resitting right this on

he&#39;s

him while
of Olive.

he&#39;s telling the disciples

Okay? In other words,

telling upset. He

he just just got

walked out through, you right? And how that

of the

temple. He&#39;s the

know, scolding now the

religious teachers, to, you know, point

disciples want there in, how beautiful temple is in it

this temple

Jerusalem that is. And going to

Rome had helped build,

he&#39;s telling them, you be desolate.

And it says in

know, this

Okay?
Verse 3, "And as he set upon

the Mount

of Olives

the disciples

came him

privately,

saying tell
be the

us, what

shall these

things be?
I mean, who do

What shall
they think

sign of

they coming?"

was going his ministry

rise it up.

to destroy

it? He&#39;d already said and in

earlier in three days

he&#39;d destroythis temple

CLINT: Yeah.

M. KORESH:
they? CLINT: No,

They didn&#39;tunderstand yet,

did

they didn&#39;t.

92~

/ 2.,

MR.
Well --

KORESH: And end of the world. the

when we
heed -Take heed.

CLINT: And
-~&#39;!5

get into

four where

he

cautions us

to take
MR. KORESH:

CLINT:

-that&#39;s

not just

a caution,

that&#39;s

a responsibility.
MR. KORESH: man deceive saying I shall hear
not troubled."

y
Yes, to For many the disciples shall come that no in my And you that you
Christian

you. Why? am Christ wars and

name

and shall rumors of

deceive many. wars. See

a true

be

I mean,

that&#39;s what

is, right?
CLINT: Um-hum.

MR. KORESH:

So all

these things

must come

to

pass, but

the end

is not

yet for

nation shall

rise

against nation,
be famines places.

kingdom against
and pestilences

kingdom. There

shall

and earthquakes

in different

CLINT: Okay.

Is,

is that

end drawing

near?

MR. KORESH:
troubled.

He says

but not

your heart

be

CLINT: No,
not troubled.

no. I

know. And,

and my

heart&#39;s

MR . KORESH: Right.
CLINT: You know, I mean, that&#39;s,

.I
/&#39; .-

2e
drawing near is not a trouble to me.

that&#39;s -- the end

MR. KORESH: You Yeah. see. when Rome began

to fall
92-I1

and became rumors of

Europe, I wars. But,

mean there but he

was nothing says all these

but

wars and

things are
shall they kill you.

the beginning
deliver you You shall

of sorrows.
up to the afflicted of all
be hated.

Verse 9,

"Then

and shall nations for

"Then shall

be hated
are to

my

namesake." Christians

many be offended and shall betray

I mean, that puts if you&#39;ve got to light on a different

one another."&#39;
die for it, I shall hate mean, one

another."

it. And

CLINT: Well, what value you put on life

you know, and do that your

that, you feel --

that depends that you&#39;ve been

accomplished everything
put on this earth

that you&#39;ve

to accomplish.

MR. KORESH= about Christ. everything he Christ may set out CLINT: Yeah, everything his
the -MR. KORESH:

Well, that&#39;s not have

what we

question

accomplished

to do. but did out for he accomplish him to do? That&#39;s

father set

No.

CLINT: That&#39;s

the

issue.

MR. KORESH: and the Hebrews goes to

Well, no. this. But

There&#39;sreason a here&#39;s the thing.

why,

&#39;3

i
He&#39;s going to finish here&#39;s the thing. "And and shall
-.--an

it from

heaven, though. prophets shall -- shall of many

realize that

And rise abound," shall wax

he that

many false And because "the love

have to

deceive many. the law,

everyone breaking
cold. But

the Christians

shall endure

the end,

the same

shall be

saved." You&#39;ve

got to

keep that
CLINT: I

old heart
agree,

going, right,
David.

Clint?

MR. KORESH: shall be

all nations,
therefore shall

"And this

gospel of

the kingdom unto

preached in
and then
see the

all the
shall the

world for
end come.

a witness
When ye
desolation

abomination of

spoken of
place."

by Daniel

the Prophet,

standing in

the holy

CLINT: Okay.
you speak
interpret or
to attach to it,

Now, let&#39;s -When

to all nations, how
And whatever
iwhatever verb

you do you

When

of preaching
how do you

--

word you
we want

want
to put

whatever,

with it,

that&#39;s fine.

But

the, the of time of the define

need to that they message that that?

preach to need to needs to be

all nations preached to be heard,

and the and the how, how

period length do you

MR. KORESH:
Christ&#39;s resurrection,

Well, later
he reiterates

on, remember
over these

after

subjects. Then

they understood

a lot

of things But he

they tells

didn&#39;t understand in his

ministry before.

30
them "Who so readeth, let him understand." Now, that

was a

note put

in by did Daniel

a translator. say about fourth empire, abomination of

somewhat about

But still, Christ? What Rome? What

in other did did

words, what
n-&#39;4

Daniel say Daniel say

about the about the

desolation? Well,
it, in First and

Thessalonians talks

Second Thessalonians. But Christ

gospel, which we know

V goes on to say a part of this

Romans, you
that is the

will continue

on through

Corinthians, Ephesians,
know, even the Book

Galatians, Philippians,
of Revelation, all of

gospel, such gospel. But up to,

them

as in Revelation

14, the

everlasting I want to bring let us

here&#39;s the point that we&#39;ll come back to

in Judea flee into

and then
which be

this. "Then
the mountains."

Remember in John
woman at the well?

Christ was

talking with

the

CLINT: Where,
MR. KORESH: Matthew 24.

where are
We&#39;re here

you at
in Verses

now, David?
16 of

CLINT: Okay.

MR. KORESH: remembrance, remember

woman at the well?

What I

was saying

was in

just to the

when Christ

was talking

CLINT: Sure

I do.

MR. KORESH:

He says

the time

is coming

to

1
deny us, when they that worship
but in
mu!

31
the father will worship
spirit and in truth. we? We Remember, we come up hither, right? have a Like

neither in Jerusalem nor the mountain ofSamaria, in

Jerusalem, don&#39;t

Galatians says,

Jerusalem which

is above,

which is

free. Okay. Christ

house top
Neither let take clothes.

states - "Him which on this be

down to
is in

come not
him which

take anything
the field them with

of his
return back

house.
to those

And wonder

child and

that give be neither

know, Christ

suck in in the

those days, winter nor

but pray on the

the sabbath.

that your sabbath day."

flight You

still commands

It says tribulation such

world to this time
CLINT: Umhum.

here, "For as was

then shall

be great of the

not since
ever shall

the beginning
be."

known or

MR. KORESH:
shortened. The"e

"And except
flesh be

those days
saved. But

shall be
for

should no

the elect&#39;s

sake, those

days

shall be

shortened." those that will

CLINT: we&#39;re talking about

endure?

MR. KORESH= who are you, then Christ or is Christ, the elect? if any

Well,

yes. The any man say to

question is shall say you lo, No one John the unto here&#39;s can say

now

Now, "If many shall

there, believe that&#39;s Christ.

it not." I mean

this

Baptist said

V
behold the lamb of CLINT: Well,
know,
-.

32
God, but who accepted have him it? saying, you we also
he.
MR. KORESH: I have what?

Iam

CLINT:

Iam

he. You

know, the,

the Lord

took responsibility

for who

he is.

MR. KORESH:
that finally got him CLINT: But MR. KORESH: had to run from city to

Exactly. And
crucified. he was willing to

that was

the point

step forward. after he to town

Exactly. Especially city and from town

because people
he came
and whence

were trying
front, he

to kill
says you

him. And
both know

finally,
who Iam

to the

I&#39;ve come from. So

he&#39;d done so many

miracles and

said yet

they believe

not.

CLINT: Do
Iunderstand what took

you feel,
place on

David, that
the 28th

people -of February.

I,

Do you

feel, notwithstanding
trying to MR. KORESH: kill you?

that situation,

that

people are

Well, see,

that&#39;s not the real

point that trying to

the seals.

we&#39;re trying to aim aim for is the

for here.

What we&#39;re the opening of

importance of

&#39; CLINT: No. And, and David, the I&#39;m withyou there, person so that Ican but

Ineed

to understand,

appreciate what

you&#39;re saying concerning the

seals.

. /

1
MR. KORESH: Well, you me to you allow

V,
can&#39;t understand you the you&#39;re in Matthew the

33

person until seals. Then

~41

start showing the person right here

you&#39;ll understand And the person

dealing with.

24,

which is
this point shall arise show great

the only
right now,

person to
is that

really be

interest

in at

he forewarns

us there shall it But

false Christ signs and they shall

and false wonders, and deceive the

prophets and so much that if

were possible
how come

very elect.

it&#39;s not?

"Behold, I they shall say unto you

have told

you before, desert, go

wherefor not
other

he&#39;s in the

forth. Behold, words, he&#39;s

it not."

he&#39;s in the secret hid, no one knows

chambers," In

where he&#39;s at, "believe

CLINT: Have been tempted to reveal MR. KORESH: subject of the, the

you had the Oh, seals to sure. I

those, David, you? mean, you is the

who have

know, the

white horse red horse the dark is the

Christian time of martyrdom, is the

-stars

dispensation, the the black

reformation, --

horse is

ages, the
the resurrection,

pale horse

the alters

are going Papacy. Yeah, theologians of

seven seals.

to end

the world just about the world

or the all the have an

white horse doctors and interpretation of

being the

the

be M
CLINT: Well, to have the various if we were to have, if that you&#39;ve we were theologians, ones

studied with,
~~u

and yourself,
truth and MR. KORESH:

how does

one discern
by a teacher? truth

between the

that provided It&#39;s night

and day. The

is the

spirit of

all the
of their

prophets and

it perfectly
The

harmonizes all

testimonies together.

theory is - and

just a the crown

man saying is a symbol

well, why of, and the

does a symbol bull is a --

and

Uhhuh. No.

You see,

the seven

seals are

previews of

more in-depth
the foundation

realities spoken
of the world. And

of by

the prophets
last miracle

from

the only

to be

given to

this world and such

is that

in

a time

when such of the comes along seals

great scholarlyism scriptures supposedly and says

according to

great knowledge

increased, somebody

well, why
what the

don&#39;t you show me the seven

prophets said?

And everyone that&#39;s what the testimony spirit of prophecy. And

kind of

looks at

him funny. is the

And

of Jesus if anybody

Christ is, knows the they said

prophecies, what

they taught brought out,

and what

and how know. have

they&#39;re going to be

Christ would feel one

CLINT: David,
an overall
understand the

do you

needs to
you can

view of

Revelations before

seven seals?

MR. KORESH:

No. One

has to

acknowledge

that

//5 .-

35
on the throne. That has to be the main

God sits

subject, and

that Christ

is their

lord and

savior. And

then when
QM

they realize these things,

very clearly then when

that only I begin

the lamb to open up

can reveal

these things,
able to, you provide view or and in

they look at me kind of funny.

when you open these, are you

CLINT: Well,

your sharing

will you

give a or an

-- will idealistic

a overall

historical view type view

It will

a futurist

of Revelations?
be, it will be word for

MR. KORESH:

word from pertaining

hand of

the prophets, to Christ,

God the

what they the word

were shown and the

truth. One

by Christ right

of God,
all one

Father. It&#39;s

spirit, one one Father,

mind, one one God,

doctrine, one and they "For the

"and shine

faith, one

Christ,

are they

which shall out of

shall

receive redemption.
the east, also the Verse 27, coming of

lightning cometh
into the be. west, so

the Son

of man

Now, that&#39;sclear. when there&#39;s lightning, plainly as gives his God can thunderings, and say, God

you come

up hither, as

voices. And

doesn&#39;t say anything. God the mediator of the New

book to Christ

who is

Testament, the
seals.

New Testament

revolving around

the seven

CLINT: And, sharing the seven seals?

David, how

long have

you been

1&#39;

*
back from

2_

as
when I got

MR. KORESH:

Ever since

1985 is

Israel and

that&#39;s when began I the reality

to open

up and

thoroughly bring
5-&#39;1 are.

to men

of what

these seals

CLINT: Are,
MR. KORESH:

are you
NO.

tired, David?

CLINT: No?

Okay.

Imean,

you&#39;re, you&#39;re --

I hear
-- it&#39;s

your voice,
--

sometimes

it goes

into what

to me

is

MR. KORESH:
Don&#39;t, don&#39;t --

No, it&#39;s just

a little

chilly.

CLINT: It

either sounds

condescending or

it&#39;s like why is

these are

he making

me answer

these. And
answer --

if

questions you
MR. KORESH:

don&#39;t want to
No, no.

CLINT: MR. KORESH:

Clint.

that&#39;s fine

with me.

Okay?

You&#39;re being

too cautious,

CLINT: No, voice, David. Iwant MR. KORESH: you&#39;re probably sitting

I&#39;m just -- I&#39;m discerning your you to Well, in

As

hear my Ihear a nice

voice. your voice, warm room

of fact,

but there.
it&#39;s cold

CLINT: No.

a matter

here, but I&#39;m in a hot

that&#39;s because building.

MR. KORESH:

the air

conditioning is

on.

Okay.

Q
CLINT: But what Iwant

<.~ 1&#39;
you to understand,

that -I,

Iwant

you to hear my voice and know that

my voice. Okay.
there&#39;s --

there&#39;s no deception in MR. KORESH:

s CLINT: And

MR. KORESH:

Well, Clint

--

CLINT: -MR. KORESH:

You&#39;ll notice that when

no dishonesty

in my

voice.

Here&#39;s, here&#39;sone thing.

Christ teaches in Matthew,

Mark, Luke,
nobody ever

and John,
interrupts him

you notice
until he

how in

the scripture

stops talking?

&#39;Cause this is one the rest Proverbs it person and of the

thing about

Judaism that&#39;s unlike Judaism, just like in to hear after and then the a

world. In

states, you

know, that

we are

they&#39;re to make a

statement. And they&#39;ll stop,

they&#39;ve got through speaking we&#39;re supposed to comment Now, you

on what

they&#39;ve said. &#39;cause in

can&#39;t dothat today,

today&#39;s language everything is

to present every other
do. It&#39;s

so debative.
will interrupt

I&#39;ll begin
me

a statement words., This

a debate,

and someone is the

a

way most
well,

theologians
what does this

it&#39;s not

guy really

teach? CLINT: Well, it becomes though. You whether know, Then it Imean, we

almost becomes have to defer to

a speech,

the President

because he&#39;s going to

~
_

QQ
make a speech and CLINT: Okay.
v--Q!

- /=

3a
said and something is know, like
be it

he&#39;ll sayI&#39;ll take questions --

MR. KORESH: Afterwards. I

When this are many is all done. And said that
when I,

yet, there if you

when I

times when -- You

can ask
share, David,

a question
and when

I teach,

either an that I you have

there are and with

adult Sunday teach, right anything as

others here, the same

school class up front

or any

other course if

I&#39;ll tell

the students me then

we&#39;re going ask on

I&#39;m sure, with the if I can help

because

same question you, if I

need. And

can interpret that point

that or on people

if I

can give to do

clarification, from much better.

are going

You know,fewyears ago wasin Korea a I

teaching school
it and this Korean

and I

was about

a day-and-a-half
of the Korean

into

National, member

military, raises

his hand

and he

says is

this the

bomb

disposal class?
to that. And I

well, I&#39;m teaching not

said no. And he said well,

anything close
I just --

In broken right but this poor

Korean, he

said, you

know, it

didn&#39;t sound So had

I didn&#39;tknow when to ask fellow sat there to do with

the question. and it

a day-and-a-half, bomb disposal,

nothing whatsoever
ever asked

before he

the question.

So I
if, if your

guess that&#39;swhy I

revert back

to -

And
you

way of sharing

is different

than that,

>

know, I,_Ican understand that andtry to work with

that. It&#39;s simply not
learning and
92-M

the way

that Iim

used to

sharing -MR. KORBSH: Exactly.

CLINT: -MR. KORESH: Sanhedrian 2,000

in that

particular context. way it was when the

The same

years ago

that dealt

with political

knowledge of
tradition that But today And so,

sociological format.
required men that&#39;s not to, to

You know,
listen, you of our talking to

it was
see.

the

the tradition Christ is

modern world. his he

for instance,

disciples and tells them then he light

he hasn&#39;t broken his about the warning of that his

conversation and not being deceived, but be so clear, the way

explains in the

covenant will to the

as

east shines
will be.

world, that&#39;s

his convent

Just like ascends from the east

in Revelation, who brings be so

the angel the seal

who of the living of the He

God, that&#39;s going to living God gives the And it

clear, what sits on

the seal a throne.

is. God&#39;s living. He book to says he&#39;s his son. going to

on their

His son seal the

is going 144,000 with

then in

to come. the
Verse 28

Father&#39;s name

forehead. But

Christ states

"For wheresoever

the

carcass is,

there

will the

eagles be

gathered together." this may be, Christ knows what

Now, whatever

1! as
it is. He knows what the carcass is. He knows who the

40
verse that is Verse we&#39;re going bring to 29 of Matthew 24, the sixth because seal of

eagles are. into point

v.-mi

But the right now is clearly

that verse

identified as 6, Verse 12. It

Revelation, Chapter after the tribulation of

says "Immediately shall the sun be

those days

darkened and
stars
heavens

the moon shall not

fall from
shaken."

give her
the powers

light and
of the

the

shall
shall be

heaven and

CLINT: Okay,
End of Tape #230.!

that

takes us

back --

&#39;

92 .

y
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

BUREAU OF

ALCOHOL, TOBACCO

& FIREARMS

~44

TAPE #231

4/15/93
8:17 P.M. -9:04 P.M.

O
Tape 231!
DAVID: could
to do altar
~.-4 CLINT: Um-hum.

G
the fifth
are souls

2
under the

eeel be something

with -.

a carcass?

If there

DAVID: -and they&#39;re told to could not

to do

in the remain a

fifth seal

crying how Then

long

season. Right? 28, 24:28

so, then

the carcass
fifth seal?

of Matthew
And if

be something
what about

with the

the lightning
third, second

is coming
and first

pertaining to
seals?

the fourth,

CLINT: Okay,
when we move from the fifth

but what
to the

happens, David,
sixth seal? What&#39;s

then

the responsibility

of the

fellow servants? the what?

from the fifth to the

DAVID: I&#39;m sorry, of

CLINT: when we move

sixth seal,
place according

what&#39;s the responsibility, what

to Scripture with the

has to
fellow servants?

take

DAVID; Fellow
CLINT: Yes.

servants?

DAVID: Well, written in the book CLINT: Them,

they&#39;re the ones who just like --

are

them, they&#39;re brethren. You

know, if

one reads the

the fellow

Scriptures, we&#39;re told that

servants also and their

it&#39;s

necessary that

brethren that

they should

be killed as

they were

should

I I

I3
be, as they were should be fulfilled. So what or Habakkuk what first of Iam does the or Zephaniah trying to all to prophet or establish acknowledge

DAVID: Right. Isaiah say

~._n

about that see, remember is the importance

Nahum? You with you

that
Christ Do you

what must
in a

be after
way different

John&#39;s day. Now John

than what both in the you know

knew
Christ. in the

agree? He

knew him

flesh and

spirit. Do

you agree?
CLINT: DAVID CLINT DAVID CLINT DAVID

Okay. You see

Yeah,

what I&#39;msaying?
Ido.

Okay.
Yeah.

So in other

words, if

he knew

Christ

both in
ascend to visions, he

the flesh
heaven states

and if
in the that wheh

he really
spirit and

did

in the

spirit
awesome again it will

saw these Christ comes

be like
west. And

lightning from
he also states that

the east that shines

there will

to the
have to be an

unfolding of prophets say

in the book.

the seven about them.

seals pertaining And the

to prophets are

what the already

So Christ this rule of faith.

here

is just

again complying sun, moon and stars

with is

Before the

darkened, there

are to

be the

gathering of

the eagles

| .,~, *92 4

to the

carcass. Now

that carcass

does not

have to

be a

dead person. know, what do

correct --

It can

be a live

person. I teach? If

mean, you Isaiah 40 is

the prophets
let&#39;s turn to

Isaiah 40.

CLINT: Okay,
DAVID: Because

just a

moment.
Isaiah was told to

you know,

seal his

book amongst
CLINT: Just,

the disciples.
just a second. Mine is not

tabbed, so

I have

to work

through. Work

through my

dog-eared pages
DAVID

:You&#39;ll - Isaiah

probably get
40.

there before

me

so laughing!
CLINT DAVID CLINT DAVID

: :Are

Isaiah 40, you there

at 33 --

41 yet?

:I&#39;m

:Can

you speak

up a

little bit

louder,

Clint?
CLINT DAVID CLINT DAVID CLINT

: David,

I&#39;m at

37 and

rising -at.

:Okay. : Okay.
:NOW :I&#39;m -at

where I&#39;m That&#39;s

-- okay.

I&#39;m at

Isaiah 40,

chapter 1.
DAVID

:Okay.

Now notice

the message

of

comfort to

the people. CLINT: Comfort

Right? ye, comfort ye my people,

saith your

OO

Lord.

&#39;

5
verses 10,
hand.

DAVID: Right.
behold, the
92 .-Q1

Okay, see there in

with strong

Lord God

will come

Right?
CLINT: Um-hum.

DAVID: His

arm shall

rule for

him: behold,

his reward

is with

him, and

his work

before him.

Okay,

so,

so in similarity

we see

that Christ I come,

promises my reward is with

in the

last chapter
me.

of Revelation
n

Now what that made revelation of heaven and the will

is stronger earth? If of God,

than the

word of

God to bring a last

Christ comes a revelation

of his

work, okay?
seal the it not

His work
144,000 with

before him.
the seal of the to those
feed his

If Christ

comes to
will

living God, seven seals?

flock like

have to

be according
He shall

Verse 11.

shepherd. What&#39;s truth. He

he going-to

feed them with his

with? The arm, and

shall gather

the lambs

carry them
that are

in his
with young. Well, the

bosom, and

shall gently

lead those

prophet begins means when

the hollow

to see he says
of his

in vision who has

hand. I

magnitude of
measured the

what this
water in

mean

how deep

is this

truth going

to be?

Meted out

heaven

with the

span, and

comprehended the

dust of

the earth

O
in a measure,
the hills in

I6
and weighed
a balance?

the mountains

in scales,

and

CLINT: ~. -nl DAVID: CLINT: DAVID: CLINT:

And are
Who --

we talking

--

-- the
Hello?

fifth angel

here then?

Are, are
angel at

we into
the same

the fifth
time? now, what

angel? We

talking the

fifth
DAVID:

Well, remember

we&#39;re

talking about based upon how will that we&#39;re

here in how will this coming supposed to

In Matthew

Isaiah is the coming be? What be looking

24, we

the foundation of Christ are some be. You of the

that&#39;s know, things

forward to?
the carcass.

talked about

we know when Christ

carcass, wasn&#39;t clay for the seal

came 2,000

years ago

he was

a
into the

he? Wasn&#39;t the day just like Job had

spring put talked about?

Wasn&#39;t the word of God being just

this prophecy
of Isaiah 40 -CLINT: verse -DAVID:

made flesh? else, you

in verses

He was a human know. But

30 of Matthew

like anybody
here that

we find
-- of,

in

Wait. Wait,

wait. Isaiah

40,

Verse 30.

It says

even the

youths

shall
utterly

faint and
fall: But

be weary,
they

and the
that wait upon

young men

shall
shall

the Lord

J!

OD
renew their
eagles; they

I7
strength; they
shall run,

will mount
and not

up with

wings as

weary, be

weary; and

they shall walk, and faint. I mean not who are these
--I

eagles as

Matthew 24? CLINT: And does this take place after the

sixth seal

is opened? DAVID: Absolutely CLINT: When DAVID: What does it not. take place? when he who will before.
ask one

I&#39;m saying is I&#39;msaying with his reward,

Christ promises will come have been to open

to come up the

Isaiah says And those strength. They

seven seals. renew their

waiting will from God

CLINT: Well,

see something

that they&#39;ve never seen

David, if, if I were to

of your term? Or

flock

in there

-are would you

the flock

you comfortable like me

or --

with use?
&#39;

that

what term
DAVID: Well,

to

CLINT: Okay.
DAVID: -pastoral term anyway. CLINT: All of your flock based right. If, upon the you feel if teachings we are Iwere that David in time? If to ask one has one you know, that&#39;s, that&#39;s a

provided you,

where do

has a

time line,

and you
time lines.

know, to

me we&#39;re dealing with

two different time line

We&#39;re dealing with man&#39;s of it. We&#39;re dealing with

and understanding

92

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God&#39;s time different. But
where do
q.-~i

8
times it, were to
we are

line. Many if I

you know, ask one of your

two totally flock

seals,

you feel having had your flock,

at?

on the

time line to share be able

of the

now with years with

the opportunity would they

this for to tell me

where we&#39;re

DAVID: Sure, But they&#39;ll this is so also tell awesome. You

CLINT: Well --

they know you point let David

where they&#39;re at. blank, they&#39;ll talk to you. say hey,

DAVID: David&#39;s
CLINT: Now see,

right here
that&#39;s, that&#39;s

they&#39;ll say.
the -I

don&#39;t, I don&#39;t want to But I guess I would hope

use the that your giving them their mind say what
T.

term problem, flock through that, that the

David. the seals upon truth. -that

teachings having been knowledge be

that they&#39;re opened to able to

DAVID CLINT DAVID

would based they know to be

Well,
AB

what they --

would tell

opposed to
well, that&#39;s

true, Clint,

but

SEQ -&#39; CLINT DAVID:

as opposed you see, truth of You cannot

flame box

to deferring let me

that.

explain something, come according or Christ

Catholic Church

Clint. The,

the

God cannot limit God

that the

to

man&#39;s opinion.
him into a little

and put

L -i
9 teaches.

CLINT: No, no. We&#39;re @DAVID: Or

s_-1

the Lutherans

or Presbyterians.
We&#39;re not

CLINT: --

we&#39;re not -- okay.

talking Catholicism and, andI&#39;m not a member any of

denomination or religion.

DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: Okay. challenge.
DAVID: In, in itself

And even

then in

itself

--

So that&#39;s, that&#39;s not my

one man

who is

of

the -what God

okay, for says about

instance, like the subject. Islands are

in Chapter He says

41, here&#39;s keep silence

before me, the people let them

oh islands. renew speak, let their strength,

independent. Let let them come near, to judgment. the his foot,

us come

near together

Here&#39;s the question. Who righteous man from the east, called

raised up him to

gave the

nations before
Now the angel from

him, made

him rule

over kings.
is is ar
8

the east we know

in Revelation the Lamb

going to going to

seal the stand on

144,000. And Mt. Zion are things that with the

144,000. These obvious. with in the

obvious. These

that are Ideal

Most people

theological world
understanding
CLINT:

already have
-Yeah.

somewhat, they

feel, an

&#39; &#39;92 -92

OO
God is
-..-A

I DAVID:
the rock.

-- of Scripture like
If we are to say that and how

in Isaiah 28.
we know they will the be

But Godsays for foundation he will

prophecies in perfect harmony

place a stone. And

fulfilled in
seal number testament of

the latter
one and

days,

we have

to begin
and exhaust seal.

with
the

thoroughly show on that

the prophets CLINT: Do

you feel,

David, do

you believe,

would you
out to

like to

see your
and share

flock have

the ability

to go

all nations

what they&#39;ve learned from

you? I
DAVID: Well, is where what the only judge think the again people subject is, us by gospel is CLINT: Now they&#39;re going trying to not being their narrow supposed to you told limit in aware of perception of do. me earlier, down. But first felt David, and how long the that I to. But see this

their minds what it is, can

what they

haven&#39;t -- I didn&#39;t write it you&#39;ve been studying or

seals --

when you

DAVID: I
CLINT: No,

didn&#39;t study
when were

this.
the seals first

revealed to

you? DAVID: In 1985 the seals, everything

pertaining to
up and

the seals

which is
in for

the Bible
its presentation.

was opened

thoroughly locked

,_

Q
That&#39;s what makes me different from

Q 11
the rabbis in

Israel who oh, say David, you need to learn Hebrew, you
know?
mi

CLINT: Well, me, let

me to

you know,

what, you

know, let allow

the

me ask a question,
continue to move on

David, okay?
and continue

And to
to hear

insight that seals were people here time, this

led this

you&#39;re sharing with me. revealed to that from is the

week and

If in

1985 the other first

you, and 1985 to time you

yet you 1993 this feel, you

tell the is the

first

have felt

next week to paper.

to commit

your knowledge, .

your understanding

You know,
this, if the knowledge

one, my

question, if
increased but

you&#39;ve had
the

has not

knowledge has knowledge, why commit to

been steady have we

because it&#39;s been all waited until this point to

paper --

DAVID: It&#39;s been just knowledge. not

been doing doing since began to
Because

I&#39;ve
been I first

exactly day one. teach I

this is --

what I

have supposed

to have that when

You understand lot of

met a

opposition. Why?

CLINT: Where, opposition, David?

DAVID: No,

where did

you meet the the branch?

Within, within
no, no, no. No,

no.

CLINT: Okay.

Where, where was

that

._

Q
opposition -~

Q 12
DAVID: No. The first opposition came when
and people see what I to teach the subjects,

we began
wad

teach.

CLINT: Well,

why would

people be

opposed to

the teachings of Revelations?

DAVID: Well, come it into the it to takes such a long let me ask you

l
a question? you and I say you what do I can How get want you

time before

first seal? be reiterated

Because everything as an opinion. Well,

feel about

this, David?

What do on this, that my

worthless on but David

you think

about this, actually my

David? What&#39;s your ideal what I&#39;m trying to

feeling and my ideal is CLINT: Okay,
DAVID: Revelation

David? And opinion and

the contrary. --

say is

states --

CLINT:
know a person

-you

know, you
take in what

have to,
they say.

you have
You

to

before you

know, one

thing may DAVID: But

be to

see an individual a man

you can&#39;t judge hear his

scripturally

unless you
CLINT: No.

doctrine.
_

DAVID: And
hear. This is the, if you look at

you can&#39;t hear it

what I&#39;ve been trying was to look at Moses,

unless you
to say. he was a In

other words, murderer. You

Christ going

into the

temple,

00
Christ is
earth. The
5-

13

overthrowing money changers. People thought

ones who crucified him didn&#39;t think he had

he was the, the biggest dog that walked the face of the
anything to do with God. On the contrary.

So we always now the past.

Mark, Luke
wrong.

accept things clearly revealed,

right and

that are

in

I mean
and John.

it&#39;s very

Matthew,
they were

Christ was

But what judged? What

expect him would he
different. And seals what instance -God has

about the was to

generation we&#39;re to be come today?

he have

if Christ
to wear

What do
a robe?

we

sandals? Would hair, a beard? It

have long

might be
we know to be. For the seven

we won&#39;t know unless foreordained is

CLINT: Yeah,

but also,

you know,

I have

to

be cautious. my family your mind

And I&#39;ve always cautioned you have that&#39;s offered have to

as to

my children what you And you take in have to to

and

to be

very careful by a man. have a feeling,

who this

understand, you
have discernment

you have

person is

before you

allow them plant

place.

to penetrate

the folds

of your be there in

mind and the first

to

seed there

that shouldn&#39;t

DAVID: Well,

remember

that if

there&#39;s any

seed to

be planted,

Christ is

the

seed sower.

And

1!. 1"
remember that after I
yourself.
,4-0

14
looking at the first seal in Revelation, the book that, you&#39;ve still got

expand on

I have
first come

never taken
and that

any student

that have
out.

not

and heard

I&#39;m, I sent them

And they

have to

go, and

they have

to talk

to teachers, have to see

rabbis, priests, clearly that

scholars. You the key that opens man can shut it.
mind of

see, they up the

mystery that Otherwise, they

once it&#39;sopened no
just don&#39;t have a

their own.

CLINT: Well, okay, and in your

this.

David, why, Because I, would only

questions, you

why at I keep let me

this point, discerning go through

--

bear

with me.

voice it&#39;s, if you

But, but there are DAVID: No CLINT: --

know, I

laughing!. I go back. I look at You ever someone. heard --

You know

who Margaret

Mead is?

Margaret Mead years and yearswas avery famous for

anthropologist.
DAVID: Uh-huh.

CLINT: And

she in

South America

one time

or

in the

South Pacific
And she it was

I should

say was

on a

small island

called Tiwi. there. And

encountered this unique setting

native group that you

such a

would, you
similar to

would bring
a flock

the village

or, you

know,

of people,

you would

bring them

together, and each person stand up

-.-yd

92.
and to

i15
they would in the all sit in a circle. And then group would have the point of what they opportunity to view on had to a topic. say and present their would say

And then
then would

this person
sit down.

And you interruptions and

know, you things. And people group I got

talked about I thought that instead

the that was of me, so me,

unique about this

I got
would let

a question,
the one

a question,

the entire sit there And then

group and the

person talk what had

have a

and would been said.

simply contemplate
next person would

chance to

talk. And

they

would work individual in

opportunity to

their way a very

around the docile setting

group where

each the

would have
that. And

do something like

it&#39;s just,

it&#39;s something that our

doesn&#39;t afford
DAVID:

society really

doesn&#39;t, really

today because

it&#39;s so busy. I mean agree with it&#39;s a you. And

You&#39;re right. lost. I

tradition

that we&#39;ve

that&#39;s why lot a

do. I&#39;m asked to

of times

in my,

in my

presentations I

come places I just

and to

expound, and and listen

45 minutes,

before you
them. And

know it,
after about

sit there

to
they

30 minutes,

finally realize
CLINT:

I&#39;m notsaying nothing. You know, then with with, in -and I guess of the

point I&#39;m getting to

there&#39;sa lot

&#39; >

O
background on okay let&#39;s, the seals
s.-4

O 16
this seals. I mean one just can&#39;t say and you know, got let&#39;s go through Revelations here. You

and you&#39;re out of do our

it&#39;s come and

quick, we&#39;ll
YOU &#39; QOIIZO . I8

45-minute study

on Revelations

DAVID: CLINT: DAVID: CLINT DAVID

It can

be.

You can
It can
It can

carry it
be.
--

from here.

If it&#39;s in the

hands of

the right

teacher it

-CLINT DAVID CLINT

Well --

-- can -- then point in

be very Iguess time to

clear. when with, commit your with knowledge, you

choosing this your insight haven&#39;tthat seized

into Revelations

to paper

and why -of a

opportunity before
that&#39;s because

DAVID: Well,

direction

like

Iwas

telling negotiators.

Ihave

a commander.

Remember.

CLINT: Well, I mean know.

we all

do.

Imean

you don&#39;t -you

you&#39;re, you&#39;re saying not Ihave, Ihave I work DAVID: Well, a commander for here.

something that, that&#39;s far greater

than anybody

well, I&#39;m saying that from the majority of

my father

is different

so far

everyone

QO
else&#39;s father in heaven. I mean I know what Ireceive

1&#39;

from my father. Andknow I from allthe prophets

exactly what
,4

they have

received. And no one&#39;s ever

I know

because I

can show
doctrine. Not

clearly. And
once.

gainsaid my

They said
said that Isacrifice

that

I&#39;m a child

molester. They&#39;ve
said that we

babies. They

sacrifice animals. They said

They say

that we

commit suicide. We deal with We do always me out

through

everything they

can say.

illegal automatic this. We used these

get me

weapons. We&#39;vegot bombs. of my try to opponents have or knock

system. is a trip

do that. All means to

stop me
of the life, life

or

into the

false light

CLINT: well,

definition, David.
where one man&#39;s child

Life

is a trip

through definition
Imean what age was

molest --

Mary when

she was

impregnated? What
does Scripture

age was
say?

she?
-

DAVID: What

CLINT: That&#39;s, DAVID: Well,

CLINT: You DAVID: -if

that&#39;s why I ask see, there again --

you.

know. Iwas --

CLINT= I

mean if,

if you

look

at the

age

that Mary
what, 13. 12 and

was and
She was 14. And

then one
13 at

could say
the time

well, she

was
between if

or somewhere it up again. But

I&#39;d haveto look

.!

00
you say well, that&#39;s the case. Or maybe she was older

18
know, I, I&#39;m going to have to look back
--

than that. You

again. But
92--an

DAVID:, Well, CLINT: -if

I can in fact

-that was the age that

women were
how old

considered ripe
live in

at the
Biblical times,

time because
35, 33

what,
--

did one

DAVID: Well,
be 80&#39;s and 90&#39;s
CLINT:

no. They,

they lived

over to

and 100&#39;s.
Well --

DAVID: You&#39;ve got a

lot of

scholars that

give their gospel truth.

a lot

opinions. And And it

that

a lot

of people

take it

as there&#39;s

really isn&#39;t.
a lot of theologians about the Bible.

You know,

of things

-- okay, there are

look, there&#39;s people

more books

Bible than

with knowledge
CLINT: Sure.

of the

DAVID: So

it&#39;s just like when

you get

into

the mysticism Judaism of they saythat, that,

Isaac&#39;s wife was 3 years old. ask them
rabbi. This

youknow,
a

Now that&#39;s baloney. You can&#39;t. It came from

to prove

it. They

great rabbi. Well, what we&#39;re trying to say is that I&#39;m

going to

deal

with every across, eye

person to eye,

that comes ear to

to what

to me ear, word
John saw,

based for
a

upon straight
word. If

the first

seal pertains

19

man on a white horse, if he hasa crown anda bow and

---1

he goes conquering conquer, when forth of the a person says well, I think that thatmeans this that I&#39;m or going to listen tothem. And I&#39;m going them to say to well, would liketo hear you what Ibelieve. If they want to listen, thenI&#39;llwell, what believeis say I
that only the Lambcan reveal this.

CLINT: All right. Then, then wouldyou say,

David, would saybelieve,or would say you I you this

is what it means?

DAVID: I would say believe. Because when I

I&#39;ve shownfrom prophetswhat theysay, them the

they&#39;re going me to sayto how did you, how you did

figure this out? How youlearn did that? And I&#39;m

going to say Ilearned itfrom high school. They&#39;re

going to they say taught you in high school? this Then

I go well, real high school.Higherwhat than
could everperceive right now.

you

But the keynote isthat when

the mystery of

God is be finished, it is to be finishedGod has to as

declared. God declared it. It was told to the

prophets beforehand. the And mystery is, that God is

has sealed Man will not have any it. power his own in mind orin his own wisdombe able to unlock it or to reveal it until the time. And this is why thelast
miracle is to be done.

* &#39;1

>l ",
The alleged
miracles were believe. So done 2,000 today, when

20
cannot be deceived. Because
they would is going not to be

when

years ago, the truth

totally contrary,
mi

then Thessalonians
delusions that

says that
they they loved shall

God will

send the believe a

truth. Now

wicked strong lion be

we want

damned because
to know

not the
truth

the truth,

the whole

and nothing

but the
The revelation

truth. And
of Christ
it? The

please help
that pertains

us, God.
to the
Christ that

first seal,

what is

revelation of

pertains to write a lot of

the second

seal, what We have

is it? a lot

You know, of music. And it earth and says, sea.

we

songs here.

There&#39;s one song called you know, Mighty angel,

thunders. Hear

Seven Thunders. stands on

see the

angel who

and he&#39;s calling to

the sounds.

you and

me. Seven
And it

The sound

of life.

goes I
You know,

want to

know, I

want to
life.

know, seven

thunders.

it&#39;s the
And so

sound of
where that

foundation is

Psalms 11

says if
glass, if

that foundation

be destroyed,
the waters
earth, if

if

that sea
like

of

we can&#39;twalk on
on the waters on

in safe

Peter walked

we can&#39;t come

up hither hearts and is. If

revelation of

and stand look at

before God the Lamb

in our the way that the

minds and God says

in our the Lamb a

we can&#39;tsee in
Christ about

honesty
the man

first seal,
on the white horse

&#39; 1

N I.
is something foundation of we need to know, then we&#39;ve lost the Luke and John, Romans, Matthew, Mark,

21
Ephesians, we
to full

Acts, Corinthians,
~40

have failed

somewhere.

And we&#39;ll not come CLINT: Let,

Christian maturity. let me ask you a question,

David. Do

you, do

you believe
and, and

in the

Scriptures where
find it if we need

we&#39;re told that,

I&#39;ll, I&#39;ll

to, but

where the

apostles had

to establish and the means by

their which they

authority and
established that?

validity and,

DAVID: Surely.
power. Paul also in says in Galatians, man. CLINT: Or
seen Christ also?

They establish
know, like you the in power.

it by
Paul words of

the
says

Romans, you Icame Icame not to to you

wisdom after

did they

establish

it by

having

DAVID: Well,

the thing

of

it is,

Paul had

not really
the flesh. funny how prolific apostle given

actually seen
But he it is and zealous

Christ and
him

believed in
in the

him in

believed of of all

spirit. And the most is Paul the

how out

the apostles them all

writer of

he&#39;s a gentile. CLINT: Well, how, how did Paul see Christ?

So he

saw him

in

a vision.

DAVID: Well, when he talks to

definitely. And in II Peter,

Peter says he says we

the church

Q O
have not followed -he&#39;s talking to the church. He when we,
mi

22
made known unto you the power of

says we have not followed cunningly devised fables,

the apostles,

his coming,

but we
We were

were eyewitnesses
on the Mount,

of his majesty.
of

the Mount

Transfiguration. We

heard a

voice in

most excellent

glory saying
pleased. But word of

this

is my

beloved son
says we

who am well
have also a more sure

then Peter

prophecy. CLINT: Hey, have you, how you have you establish your established in a discussed

with your authority? And way similar

flock, David, has the to that DAVID: of the

authority been apostles?

Well, remember,

my authority

is

different than

the apostles. CLINT: How would you define your authority,

David?

DAVID: Well,
their power giving of from Christ the gifts

again, the
through the from Christ.

apostles receive
sacrifice and Right? True? the

CLINT: Go
DAVID: And spirit of earth with pertaining to
what must

ahead. Yes,
through that relayed it in testimony when John
is that

it is.
power, the to the of the eternal church on future events says
the

prophecy, they works and Christ. So

be hereafter

the Revelator
sit on

God must

00
throne, and God

23
must give will come the question can reveal the book with this to the Lamb. And he reward that church on church remains what the seven by the

the Lamb

says he

received, then
xaf

earth clearly will be

seals? That prophets.

the church
CLINT

spoken of Well, I,
reveal that,
Well --

Idon&#39;tknow that
David.

there

is a

church that

can
DAVID CLINT DAVID

Christ indiscernible!

--

-- there&#39;s a people
of doubt.

here that

know

beyond shadows
CLINT .DAVID

Well, You see,

is there

a --

well if

-trying

that&#39;sthey&#39;re what

to tell

you.
CLINT

No, David,

are you

saying that

your

flock believes
the identity of
DAVID CLINT DAVID CLINT DAVID

or your,

your flock
Is

believes they
that what --

have

that person.

Exactly.&#39;, &#39;

--

is that

what you&#39;re

saying? you.

That&#39;s what they&#39;re telling

No, no --

That&#39;s what they&#39;re telling you that they have been --

you.

They&#39;re telling
CLINT

-- I&#39;mtalking to I&#39;m talking to you. old I want to

you. No,

I&#39;m not

talking to you know,

them. it&#39;s the

That&#39;s, that&#39;s, the source and

come to

. F

&#39;-92._

&#39; 24
that&#39;s, that&#39;s why I wanted to

to the speak to

authority. And you.

DAVID: But
-..-4

my authority
it be.

in the
I&#39;m a man

flesh is
like you.

not

respected and

nor should

If you
look at can teach

was to
that guy

see me in Wal-Mart,
over there. seven -I bet that would
I think
one of --

you wouldn&#39;tsay hey,

bet you that guy You

Hey, I

me the

you he&#39;sthe Lamb. be foolish.

--

wouldn&#39;t say that. And

CLINT: But
DAVID: If

if

CLINT: -you knew

I, I

think if, by my

if you works. of it

knew me,

if

me, you&#39;dknow me DAVID: Well,

the thing their works.

is today Men today

you don&#39;t

can&#39;t interpret have time to talk

men by to one to the not to

another. Men appearance of

today always things just like

judge according Christ warned And if of God, in Romans. another? You you&#39;ll escape righteous revelation Now in
is asked. And that

do. Judge

righteous judgment. judgment Paul states judgest do you think

men don&#39;t know the righteous fail to understand what who art same things. thou that

then they

Paul says do the

He says

the righteous of Jesus the judgment

is who

judgment of
Christ?

God? The

of God
is

only one open this not in

question book? judging

ready to church is

And the

hope of

the Christian

O 25
one another by their works. Of course, there are

certain works that are

nonetheless, the
~._4I

forbidden by God. But

the church end of is that time which there will will be
&#39;

hope of to them
of

come a grace
the revelation

at the

Jesus Christ.

And so

those who

know to

fight for

the unity

and the to Christ ones to

the last
seven seals.

brotherhood not and the whom it

judging one

another but are given,

looking

promises which belongs. That

will receive

they&#39;re the does come

of the

when Christ
the knowledge

in

days, they

CLINT: DAVID: CLINT DAVID CLINT

Do you Iknow
On a --

feel we&#39;re in the we are in the last

last days? days.

It&#39;s not a feeling. Okay, David. a continuum as the last days? you see you, you What is On a, on

Idon&#39;t -a continuum, we&#39;re at

can you

function on

and say where

on that continuum

DAVID: Well, let me to you? ask you

don&#39;t -- okay, the first seal seal? And

this question.

What is your CLINT: Well,

knowledge of

the first

I&#39;ve got to go Scriptures again.

back again.

Ialways began from

go back that and DAVID: CLINT: --

to the -Okay.

And I&#39;ve

and as you

say --

92

9 0
DAVID:

26
If you&#39;ll show me that, then You see? And then, I&#39;ll and then the seals. hoping that, are in the But regards to you that I was

show you

what Isee.

you&#39;ll see where we&#39;re in at

v. -mi

like that you

seals. The

Isaid

in the

tape to

would receive,
seals
CLINT:

none of

you all

are the

Lamb&#39;s book of life.

Well, I

mean Ibelieve

my name

is

written in

there.
DAVID: CLINT:

Well, you Ibelieve

don&#39;t know because -my name is written in

there.
DAVID: CLINT: DAVID: CLINT: book. DAVID: CLINT: DAVID:

-- you
I -Wait a

don&#39;t know -no, I,

minute.

Ido

know. I,

I--

Iknow

my name is written

in the

Clint, you I absolutely -- Clint,

don&#39;t know -know that. Clint, the is your Yeah. first seal name there? Where&#39;s your is a

man on

a white horse. seal is a man

Now where on a
sets of

The second
name there?

red horse.
books.

There&#39;s two
CLINT:

No,

Idon&#39;t know that the

man on

the

horse has

anything to
of life.

do with
Idon&#39;t

my name written
--

in the

Lamb&#39;s book

DAVID:

Yeah, but

you see

--

0 27
CLINT DAVID-

-- really
-- the

think so,

David.
contains

Lamb&#39;s book of life

92 -$4

the seven

seals
CLINT DAVID

Where, where

does it

say that

so I

--

Well, right

there in

Revelation,

chapter 6.
CLINT DAVID CLINT

Well -Revelation 4 and 5.

Let me

get to

that. Revelations

92 i

and 5. DAVID CLINT DAVID

Okay. Okay.

Now you

see what

Iwant is

so you Iwant

can to

better understand
92

where I&#39;mcoming from

first
what you

Iwant

you to

show me what you

about the what Ihave

have learned

and

have received show you

first seal. resealed sic!.

And that And

way Ican

then we&#39;ll compare the two.f

CLINT: Well, my name is written
HOB --

what I&#39;m saying is in the book and

if

Ibelieve it&#39;s

in the,

you say

DAVID= What CLINT: -to see in 4 and

I&#39;m saying is -and because of Scriptures that. -Imean Iwant

5 where,

where I&#39;m missing Laughing.! John see the book that

DAVID: Okay. not John, Clint, you

contains the

. 2a
names of all those --

CLINT: You&#39;ve talking, been

talking to
mud

you&#39;ve been

too many DAVID:

Johns, David. Imean we --

That&#39;s your -there&#39;s so many Johns

everywhere

we just CLINT: You

laughing! -know, after this I&#39;m going to -- his name is

rename my

son. Because been too

there&#39;s just many Johns. you know,

John. There&#39;s

DAVID: Well, Okay. Now what we see is

John

is a

nice name. Christ

a revelation

of Jesus

in Chapter
Okay?

5, verse 1.

It&#39;s in the right

hand of

God.

CLINT: Um-hum. DAVID: And we see that it&#39;s sealed. In

other words,

it&#39;s amystery. No

one in heaven

knows

what&#39;s init. No
thereon. You see?

one&#39;s been

capable to

even look

So when

Iused

to go

to certain

ministerial

classes and Because a

stuff, you lot of

know, I

would this is

ask a

question. where our

ministers preach

name is written in
wait a
you

the Lamb&#39;s of life, and book

book says
we know.

Igo
do

minute. The
know? Well,

here it&#39;s sealed. How

wait a minute.

Well, no,

This book
says it contains in

contains just
chapter 6,

what the
verse 1.

Scripture
Christ opens

the first

seal just

like on

a letter.

You open

the

hr

I
seal. You open it up. And the

I29
subject pertains to

behold a white
him had
.4

horse. Verses
A crown and to

2. iAnd

he that

sat on
went

a bow.

was given conquer. Well,

to him,

and he that&#39;s a

forth conquering revelation of know in the

Christ. Something latter days.

that we&#39;re supposed to

And so there? I they begin

it sounds

you ask

a Christian is it? is the

well, is Well, so Christian --

your name then okay,

mean, you to say

good. CLINT: Well,

know, how well, this

I&#39;m reading that, David. obviously from

But I

mean it&#39;s not to

take away

what you&#39;re

saying. But

to me, it&#39;s

an interpretation.
Because I
book. And

But I
believe my
it

don&#39;t share that interpretation.

name is written in that

I don&#39;t see where

says it&#39;s not. And not, Idon&#39;t want to give that DAVID: Okay,

this is duel with up.

not, you you. But

know, again

I&#39;m

I&#39;m not

willing to

well, let

me, let

me make

it

this way.
see over

Let me state
here in CLINT: In DAVID: Yeah,

it

this way
-- okay.

then. Okay?

We

chapters 21 -- you

in Revelation? We see statement in

21 verse the first 1. And heaven I

chapter 21. his only

the father, earth, for

point blank

this

is where

God makes
is God heaven and

Revelation. This saw a new

a new

00
and first

30
passed away and there

sea.

earth were

was no

more

CLINT: Yes.
~....4

I
John, saw the holy city, new

DAVID: I,

Jerusalem, coming
as a bride adorned

down from
for her

God out
husband.

of heaven,

prepared

And I
saying, Behold, he will
and God

heard a great
the tabernacle them, and
be with

voice out
of God they shall
them, and

of heaven
is with be his
be their

men, and people,

God.

dwell with
himself shall

And God shall wipeaway alltears from their

eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow,

nor crying,
the former things

neither shall
are passed

there be
away.

any more

pain:

for

And he
I make
these words

that sat
new. And

upon the
he said

throne said,
unto me,

Behold,
write, for

all things
are true

and faithful.

And he said and Omega,

him that

unto me, and the

It

is done. end. I
of the

I am Alpha will give

water of

the beginning
of the

unto

is athirst

fountain

life

freely. He that overcometh shall inherit and he shall be all things; my son.

and I

will be

his God,

But the abominable, murderers, and idolaters,

fearful, and

unbelieving, the and sorcerers, their part in

and whoremongers, liars, shall have

and all

 31

the lake

which burneth

with fire

and brimstone,

which

is the

second death.
Now we see here in chapters

t
20 the event.

Q--~14

John said is verse

great chain

I saw

an angel

come down from heaven. of the bottomless pit

This and a

1. Having
in his He laid hold

the key
hand. on the

dragon, that

old serpent,

which is
years.

the Devil,

and Satan,

and bound

him a

thousand

And cast

him into

the bottomless

pit, and

shut him
deceive the
were fulfilled
little season.

up, and

set

a seal
more,

upon him,
till the
must be

that he

should

nations no
and after

thousand years
loosed a

that he

And I

saw thrones,

and they

sat upon

them,

and judgment
them that

was given

unto them
for the

and I
witness of

saw the
Jesus

souls of
and

were beheaded

for the

word of

God, and

which had

not worshipped

the

beast, neither upon their lived and

his image, foreheads, nor reigned with

But the rest of

neither had in their Christ a

received his hands; and they

mark

thousand years.
lived not This again is the

the dead were finished.

until the
first resurrection.

thousand years

Blessed and first resurrection,

holy on such

is he

that hath

part

in the no

the second

death hath

00
power, but they shall be priests unto God and of

32
the thousand out of go out years are the prison. and deceive of the the nations earth, Gog and expired,

Christ, and shall reignwith him thousand a years.

And when
92-Q1

Satan shall

be loosed And shall

which are Magog, to

whom is

upon the gather them

the sand

four corners together to

sea.

battle, the

number of

of the

And they
and compassed beloved city
and devoured

went up
of the

on the

breadth of

the earth,
and the

the camp and fire

them.

saints about, from God

came down

out of

heaven,

And the

devil that

deceived them

was cast

into the

lake of

fire and

brimstone, where

the beast

and the and night

false prophet for ever

And I

are, and and ever.

shall be

tormented day

saw --

CLINT: We,
then, right? DAVID: Well,
CLINT: Okay.

we ned

to jump

forward to

12

we&#39;re, we&#39;re getting up

there.

DAVID: And
him that sat on it, from

I saw

a great

white throne,
the earth and

and

whose face

heaven fled

away and And I

there was dead, small

found no

place for

them. stand

saw the

and great, opened and

before God

and the

books were

another book

!
33

was opened, judged out

books.

which is of those

the book things which

of life

and the

dead were in the

were written

CLINT:

According to

their works. to their works. Okay. --

DAVID: According CLINT: Okay,

DAVID: Now

now there
the --

CLINT: -only having very clear going to a --

there we
I mean that, that

have men

being judged
gives

not
a

gives, that

responsibility for be judged according to

works, because your works. And it&#39;s got to

and the book. You

you&#39;re

DAVID: Exactly. according to books, Daniel will tell

ever named

be
see, the

the books will tell you, contain

the name of

you, and
the names Christ.

the other
of all

prophets
those who have

CLINT: Jee, that book without that

my, my

name can

be written

on

book being
the

opened. My that book

name can

be burned book ever

right on having been DAVID: Well,

pages of
opened. it says here,

without the

verse 15,
of life

and who
was cast

so was into the

not found lake of

written in fire.

the book

CLINT: Absolutely.
those who believe that and have

And if
the works

my belief
for

is for
which

they will

be judged

that our

names will

be written

on

Q
that book.

34
DAVID: Okay. So what happens is,
in the -my name is already

is when

the Lamb
L --1

who is

to be

the mediator God, right But, but

judgment

receives the

book of CLINT: Yeah.

written on

that book.

DAVID: Okay. CLINT: Okay. you say

know that.

That&#39;s, that&#39;s okay. -know, David.

when I

I believe,
You know,

I don&#39;tbelieve, I
that&#39;s not a belief.

That&#39;s not

a thought.
know it.

That&#39;s not a hope.

That&#39;s not a prayer.

DAVID: Okay. reveal the know the you an seven seals, seven seals, understanding ~CLINT: Okay. seven seals opened prior DAVID: In
ever has a chance to

So when then you right?

the Lamb are going

comes to to want to offer

Imean

I&#39;m here to

But, but to the heaven before

know them,

David, were judgment? anybody on

Christ alone

not the

earth
received

them. Because man but is given

he is the

judge. The unto the honor the

father judges son that father. a part of the the Lamb man

no

all judgment as they the last

should honor

the son Now when

days become dwell on the earth, just as

experience of to come

those who

is

and judge

the gentiles

the Jews

were to

as
be judged. The only difference is 2,000 years ago the

people, the majority, did have not available to them

the Scriptures.
~<uI

But in to be

the time

of the

end when

much 11 and

knowledge is 12 tells

increased as be directed
-Bible --

Daniel chapter to that

us, we

are to

knowledge.

CLINT: Where DAVID: The

CLINT: --

where does

it tell

us, David,

in

the Bible men an mean you where

and you

that one understanding of and I

will come

to write

and to Where does and Ihave

pass to it -both read I

the seals? and you

both know, in Revelations

it says

that you

can&#39;t take away

can&#39;t add to. DAVID: Exactly.

CLINT: So

how does

that then

give

justification to
with a greater

one coming
interpretation or

and producing
overview of

a manuscript
the seals?

DAVID: Well,
is a witness to. It&#39;s to what is the
with me. ~ Now father is the reward

remember, what
not an he was

John has

written
John And My
.

interpretation of. shown by that the spirit. Icome.

bears witness the witness

reward is

final testament

that Christ seals. Who

receives from therefore

his

the book

with seven

only can

properly reveal

what the

seven seals

are?

Well, you

know the

144,000 will

be sealed

with this

Q
seal. They seals. And
east.

Q 36
will they receive the do so by the knowledge of angel who the seven sends from the

~.-4

Matthew 24, coming will be so

Christ clearly so clear

taught that when he

his comes,

clear, it&#39;s

he comes
book it&#39;s

according to
written of

Psalms 40.
me. Let&#39;s

In the
turn to

volume of
Psalms 40

the
with

the key in Scripture

of David, -CLINT:

and let&#39;s see exactly

how it

states

Well, how,

how do

you differentiate opening of is opened, seals? the

who receive

from the

sealing
DAVID:

of God&#39;s people to Well, when

is revealed.

a seal

truth of

God&#39;s word

And those

that truth accomplishing.

receive a

knowledge of

the work

that God

is

CLINT:

But, but his word Well, you -in these

don&#39;t, you know, I right here have -dog-eared pages without adding in these

mean I old --

have the

truth of
DAVID: CLINT:

that I&#39;m to it.

looking at

right
DAVID:

here without,
So did

the Pharisees.

You search

the

Scriptures daily And they Even if law, you testify you were of yourself

thinking that of somebody to receive

in them else who the whole

you have is your

life. life. the

knowledge of the law. But

cannot fulfill

Christ can

fulfill the

law for

you.

Q,V that wayyou canbe saved grace. And &#39; 37by I And
you don&#39;t have to stand in the judgment next to the

law. You
Christ. ~..-an

stand

in the

judgment by

the righteousness

of

And so Christ to the seven Christians and body the way the

there&#39;s one last righteousness And that it will is he gather all only can the true

of reveal

be revealed. seals. And all the

true saints

together into

one

apostles teach be this that diversity. this arguing

it&#39;s supposed to be. church and that church There&#39;s not there. position of says this is one

There&#39;s not supposed to and this supposed to diversity and be all

here and to come in a

So I&#39;m going not saying well, and Luke. within itself. see the what they seals. And think about CLINT: Well, right, David, but they DAVID: No, I think No. You

Matthew says, see the subject of

think Mark the seals

God, the

book. Clearly has a

everybody can right to show me

so everybody the seals. you know,

they, they

have a

don&#39;t have a responsibility. but I do. That&#39;s why I live. seem to actions be

That&#39;s why I&#39;m here. That&#39;s whymy actions so adverse should be. to what I mean, CLINT: Yeah, again? You know, what, a lot of people -going back the authority? think my

you know are we

to authority

who has

>

Q r0
DAVID: We&#39;re going back to the chain of

:8
l
has the authority.
to make

command. Who has -CLINT: Who

~-4

DAVID:

-the

divine credentials

such testaments. testify to

Especially when that hears

I warn the words

every man, of this

every man

prophecy you
take away

cannot add
the testament CLINT: Let

your opinions,
that&#39;s there. me -David,

and you

cannot

let me

ask you

this.

Would you
one would authorities that

say your
say what

flock -is the are outside

what is
opinion of of your

-what
your flock

opinion if
of the do

complex? What

they represent?
is there Babylon? _ a teaching

Do --

is there,

is there

an opinion

or

provided that

this represents

DAVID: Well,
contrary to God&#39;s word.

Babylon

is anything

that&#39;s

CLINT: Well, DAVID: Would

okay. Why you not

-agree?

CLINT: Why
authorities, why find the, agent, I contrary to you know,

would you

think that

the
why would and as you an FBI

would you, as, as

you know, a Christian

don&#39;t find myself and God&#39;s word.

my responsibility

DAVID: Well,
you would not be

if you

were an
the FBI.

apostle, then
You&#39;d be out

working for

. 92
T

39

ministering like

Paul the
I, I

apostle.
can do both though. I can

CLINT: Well,
minister --

DAVID: Well,
~..@

not really.
within the context of my

CLINT: --

responsibility and to do as an FBI

still agent.

carry out

my what

I&#39;m supposed

DAVID: Well,

now, Clint

--

CLINT: No, that I&#39;ve spent years, saying if supposed to want to give up nothing
was told

you got you know,

to understand, as an FBI

David, agent always if

I&#39;m

I&#39;m supposed to do give this you know, I would, up and

something else, go on a mission sell a house.

field, I
I&#39;d
mean

do it, a car. and very

to do

I would you know,

those things that field

quickly move
that. But

out into
I&#39;m in a field.

if

I&#39;m in a

mission field

right now. DAVID: Right. Well, I agree with you as

a -_

CLINT: But, to -and, and if it

but did I

that doesn&#39;t would. But

require

me

I&#39;ve not been,

I&#39;ve not been told things, and told stay And, and go out where you

give up. and do are, and

Go away. something else. minister where

Turn all

these been I&#39;ve

you

are.

you&#39;ve got -DAVID: Well, then that&#39;s what you have to

pa,

40
do.

CLINT: And you&#39;ve got many people out so

here outside
..-1

of your
David, is

complex. You
I think

know what,

what

bothers me,

sometimes there&#39;s,

there&#39;s a we
the branch,

against us
where your

type of
flock is

mentality here
the we,

where

and everybody

outside of

your flock

may be them. And

that&#39;s not

correct. That&#39;sthe diversity

shouldn&#39;t take
place -DAVID: Now CLINT: -I -but I

that you

talk about
is taking

that
&#39;

place. And

I don&#39;t think it

think actions

have caused

certain measures

to be

done.

DAVID: Exactly. outside the jumped back door, and inside the CLINT: All
DAVID: Another
CLINT: -DAVID: --

Like on I got door. right, now -shot at.

the 28th My action

day I

was

was I

elderly gentleman
if -next to me was shot dead.

--

CLINT: If,
DAVID: Now

if I
that was

was in -a mistake.

okay -We

forgave -CLINT: If I was in your position, I would want I was in your would as to bring position, David, a Christian, the situation, as a number if

believer, I

xx

I
one, to the world&#39;s attention so DAVID: They&#39;re
-I

Q 41
they could hear going to.
into man&#39;s court and

through me what took place and nunber two --

CLINT: -resolve it into man&#39;s

take it court then.

DAVID: Clint,
nonetheless --

you&#39;re being very clever.

But

CLINT: What&#39;s

-- no,

David. See

now that

--

okay. That

bothers me
DAVID: Well

---

CLINT: -attribute it to cleverness.

when you

hear honesty

and you

DAVID: You&#39;re calling it you&#39;re moving right back Bnd of tape 231.! --

honesty. But

<5
1.-~41

U.S. DEPARTMENT

OF THE

TREASURY

BUREAU OF

ALCOHOL, TOBACCO

8 FIREARMS

TAPE #232

4/15/93
9:04 P.M. 9:51 P.M.

3 0
Tape 23

2
CLINT: Well, so am I, David. You know, I, DAVID: So are we going back to the

I --

<11

negotiation

part

-I --

CLINT: No,

DAVID: --

or we

going back

to the

fear of

God? &#39;
CLINT: -let&#39;s say I&#39;m saying -I&#39;m,

I&#39;m sitting in my house on a Sunday afternoon knowing

this situation has gone on, and to get a call to come

here withno reason that to take place, unlesssome for

divine intervention in saying here to come here that

you can

do some

good based to have

upon your

beliefs and that to show that

your a rank same

background, and and file

you attribute would start to

negotiator, I

discernment in

my voice

that you&#39;ve shown to

me so far.

DAVID: Well,
in the voice in respect everything that

I haven&#39;t shown you discernment

that it&#39;s kind of I do chilly in the

here. And

according what

sounds you hear First of

you&#39;re not hearing what

or no?

I&#39;m saying.
Then let&#39;s

all, we&#39;re Christians. Yes

have respect

to God.

Let&#39;s come hither. up agents except you, okay? All right?

Now up And me,

hither there&#39;s no FBI I&#39;m a mechanic.

I&#39;m a carpenter. well, you

CLINT: So,

know, let&#39;s, let&#39;s not

. ":~ -

. 1

O3
get caught up in titles, okay? Let&#39;s --

DAVID: No, no. Well, that&#39;s, no, that&#39;s

what I,
5-ad

I like

-- I&#39;ma carpenter.

CLINT: -one does for a living.

let&#39;s not say, let&#39;s not say

what

DAVID: I

build houses.

I like

to build

houses. I&#39;m According to

a mechanic. the flesh.

I&#39;m guitar player. a

CLINT: Well

--

DAVID: I
in the world.

mean that&#39;s just the

things we

do

CLINT: -too. And I&#39;ve built

okay, and,
furniture before.

and I&#39;ve built cabinets

So --

DAVID: Praise

the Lord,

so?

CLINT: -mean we, we look at the

you know,
first, you

we can

say, you
know, as far as

know, I
I&#39;m

concerned the lifestyle or

most important employment could

carpenter, and Imodel my life

what better after?

DAVID: Exactly.
and we see God on the throne.

So now we come up hither,

And the father hands the

book to
interested in.

the Lamb.

Okay? Now

that&#39;s what we are

CLINT: You know, you

understood from that your your flock the beginning,

know, I,

I have

David. I&#39;ve understood of you and

mission and you feel

the responsibility differs from what the

authorities

i
there are

"0
your complex have, and yet I draw a very both, because who want see the to resolve between the mission of out here many Christians

outside of strong analogy

this positively
xi

and who want to

and bring it --

Lord&#39;s hand on

this situation

DAVID: But
who are not Christians

you also know

out there.

that there
And because

are many
--

CLINT: Well,

I mean

let&#39;s talk

about the

world, okay? There

Christians. I
a head count and

are many there who are out not.

mean, you
say okay,

know, if,
how many

if you

want to
are

take

FBI agents

Christian? What does

care. And violently.

Raise your that accomplish?

they want to

hands. Does

that do

any good? they

But they&#39;re here. And

see this resolved non-

But, but, plateaus. And

you know,

we, we that. And

have two

different

I understand

you&#39;re saying

we&#39;re with a working spiritual clock, and have we t

spiritual direction.
there, are get on working on - don&#39;t ask us And yet, world and to have

And you,
man&#39;s clock, to punch to bring it to

the authorities

out
to

and don&#39;t ask us in on your clock. of the

the courts

that understanding,

requires that. a loss

And that&#39;s, that&#39;s where I&#39;ve always been at

when each
going to

time I

felt so

positive when
because I really saw

you said

it&#39;s

be resolved,

the Lord&#39;s

, J }

intervention and
and let&#39;sget it

is 0

saying good,
on, okay?

let&#39;s bring it out,

Let&#39;s getit on,

God,

and let&#39;s

get it
92-~-QC

resolved in
and in
shroud of
me as

a positive
the eyes
the Lord

nature, non-violently,
protection
takes place.
on one

in

the courts
and the
And for

of man with the

over it
to see

when it
the reluctance

a Christian

part I

say he

has to

wait for

the Lord&#39;sguidance, and

the other
giving honor
flock has

part I

say is

this given,
to the

is this

situation
each of your

and glory
to stand

Lord? And
Lord and

before the

account for

this

time period or whether

and account

for whether

you&#39;ve givenhonor
Lord.

you&#39;ve takenit away

DAVID: Yes.

from the

CLINT: And want to see my

I want

to see

that

take place.
see the want to the Branch stand. done. You see

accountability, I

want to

accountability of the accountability

stand that same test

the authorities, and responsibility

and I of

that I&#39;m willing to that&#39;s going to be

DAVID: And

see, the the means And I

means that that we

the negotiators were announcing not going

are using from the into it,

now are beginning. but when

know that I&#39;m

to get

I bring
the first

up the
day of

realities that
the assault

we have experienced since

-now --

CLINT: But
DAVID: Wait

we&#39;re into reality right

a minute.

92 4/

&#39;
CLINT: and today. We&#39;re intoi --

DAVID: Wait, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

CLINT: M

a Christian

reality and

a worldly

reality.
DAVID: wait a minute.

CLINT: We&#39;rein DAVID: Your voice is

this, this
rising now.

is as

true

--

CLINT:

and as

strong. And

this is

as

cutting, David,
There are

as any doubleedged sword

that we&#39;re dealing

right now.
with, and

two realities

they both and I

need to

be dealt else who

with positively. has any level of

And you

and everybody

responsibility and to stand before the you by

DAVID: I

authority in Lord and our actions?

know I

these situations say Lord, have we

have brought

shame upon

have brought

honor. God&#39;s

word is
takes like

the most

honorable thing
ago the

in heaven.
son of God to

Even if
be

it

2,000 years

crucified. we
No, we don&#39;t.

don&#39;t want that to

happen today,

do we?

You see,
the Constitution,

this great
but it

nation stands

on not

just
on

stands on

bylaws. Stands

documents. Remember, is the knowledge of

what I&#39;m trying to the seals declared by

share with the prophets.

you

Now we would not

we?

say the

prophets had

an opinion,

would

.5

CLINT: No. DAVID: An someone to

a.--an

But, but opinion is

it -a weak excuse for but my

say well,

I don&#39;t really know, you an opinion.

opinion. I&#39;m not giving

CLINT: And,
that one can only

and there,

there are
on. And

some things
there are knowledge.

have an opinion can, can

some things

that one

ascribe divine

And there&#39;s judge no way to that other than tosayI

take you at your word. But --

DAVID: No, CLINT: -

there&#39;s the word of

the prophets.

but, I&#39;ve, I&#39;ve alsobeen given

the gift

of discernment.

And I

have to

use that gift

because it&#39;s a responsibility.

DAVID: Well, ask ourself Psalms 40?

speaking. CLINT: Wait DAVID: Are CLINT: No,
second.

can we person is

turn to

Psalms 40 and

who this

that&#39;s speaking here in person is correct in his

Let&#39;s see this if

a minute. you there wait yet? stand by a

a minute.

[939]

CLINT: You DAVID: Forty.

say 14

or 40?

CLINT: Forty.
DAVID: Well,

Okay. Where
the Psalm.

at in

40?

We don&#39;t want to

Q 8
take it to pieces. I mean, you know, that&#39;s where most

people get their opinions is by pieces of verses here

and there.

~--0

CLINT: I,
and he inclined unto DAVID: Now

I waited
me, and is this

patiently for
heard my cry.

the Lord;

David talking,

or is

it

somebody else? pit, out of the

He brought miry clay,

me up also out and set my feet

of a

horrible rock.

upon a

CLINT: Which
that we have to stand on.

is the

word. which

is prophecy

DAVID: And
Christ taken
been? The

established my
a pit, the worst
tomb. was

goings. Well,
pit that&#39;s
God set

was
ever
- did

out of

crucifixion. The

Christ set
God his

himself upon
father?

a rock?

Is God

the rock?

Is

CLINT: Yeah,

but is

this talking

about

Christ, or

is this

talking about
= find out.

David&#39;s life

experiences her;2 DAVID: Let&#39;s

That&#39;s the question

we&#39;reto resolve. If Christ was taken to trying up

heaven and
book and

put upon
established his

a rock,

did the

father give
had put

him a
a new song

goings? He

in my
a new

mouth. In
song --

Revelation, does

it not

say they

sing

CLINT: Sing
DAVID: -before

a new

song.
the throne?

,._

.0David. &#39;

CLINT: Sure.

We sing

that every

0 9

Sunday,

DAvID: Well, even praise unto ourGod: Many

shall see
.0

it. What

will they

see? Will trust

they see in the

the Lord

the

seven seals?

And fear,
Blessed is

and shall
that man

Lord.
his

that maketh

trust, and
aside to

respecteth not
lies. Now it&#39;s true God one that is to

the proud,

nor such

as turn

sits on was slain reveal seven

a throne.

It&#39;s

true Christ It&#39;s true

was the that Christ

and resurrected. seals.

Anything contrary

to that

is

a lie.

H Many,
which thou ward: they if I

O Lord my God, thy wonderful works are

and thy thoughts which in order are to unto thee: more usreckoned up and speak

hast done, cannot be

would declare

of them,

they are

than can

be numbered.

Who only

can reveal

what Christ

has to

reveal in

the seven

seals? didst not desire;

Sacrifice and

offering thou

mine ears has

offering thou
God want then?

thou opened:
hast not

burnt offering

and sin
then what does

required. Well

Well, then of the book it

said I,

lo, I of me.

come: in This takes takes place takes place

the volume place after

is written

after he&#39;s taken to he&#39;s established

heaven. This on the rock. This

92 &#39;92 _92&#39; .

0 10
sometime after, hereafter.

CLINT: And
a Christian,
ea-n

see what
let

my responsibility
me take you back

is as
to 40,

David, let,

verse
aside to

4 again
lies.

where we

talk about,

nor such

as turn

DAVID: Exactly.

CLINT: And, teachings. DAVID: Exactly.

and to

me lies are

false

CLINT: Okay?
determine false man, we

And I

have to

be able

to
a

teachings. And

when -and

as, as these are,

have certain

capabilities. And

these are
measure the can hear his

very small.
word of words. And

But part
a man

of what

we do
who he

is, is
is, so I you

and measure that&#39;s where

and whether

want to
you know,

hear this,
I look

David, or
to strike

whether you
that balance

believe in
that I have to

it,

between Christianity
DAVID: Well,

and responsibility.
sure.

CLINT: Okay? saying that discernment. And as a Christian I have

And I&#39;m striking that I have an ability the gift -of

balance

DAVID: So you know #CLINT: to discern --

DAVID:
teaches the seven

-you
seals before

know how

to judge

a man

who

he even

teaches them,

:&#39; .92_

,92__,<_;" right?
I&#39;m saying that is
~44

9292 .~ H

Q
needs to

w
know the man

11

CLINT: No, Ineed to knowthe man. And what

the world the seals. before they can hear Okay?

DAVID: Well, that&#39;s not so. Because youi

see, you cannot judge Christ before
is not

you know his

his. It&#39;s the

doctrine. Because
father&#39;s. &#39;

his doctrine

Now when it says preached righteousness Before Christ

heaven. And the knowledge

here I, in the earth, he

verse 9,

have

great congregation. reveals these

earth to seal people

comes to
then he of this truth.

seals in
with

comes to

CLINT: No,
where they were, David.
DAVID: Exactlyu

but, but

Christ also

met people

CLINT: He,

he met

them exactly

where they

--

he didn&#39;t care if
collector or a whore

they were

a taxpayer
it was,

or a
he met

tax
them

or whatever

where they

were and

dealt with on a

them at

that level.

And know him

he shared with them

and they would then
DAVID: Christ

level that

they would

understand him.
never conformed to the wishes

of the king and

people of he would

his day.

They tried

to make hated

him a him.

not. That&#39;s why they to do miracles when

They tried to

get him

they wanted

5, !

and he

ld not.

He made himself of

no reputation.

12

That&#39;s the reason

rejected him.

why the majority of

the people

Now if you really

Q.-Q

want to see what&#39;s on going

Psalms 89, and I&#39;ll show

right now,

then let&#39;s turn to

you a prophecy
this one.

in fulfillment.
89.

I&#39;m sure you&#39;ll like

It&#39;s Psalms

CLINT: Do do you say that honestly?

DAVID: I

you say

that tongue-incheek,

or

- look.

Sighing.!

CLINT: I, don&#39;t, I don&#39;t want to,

care about you. And

you know,

I --

there -

I, I I

you know,
I&#39;m herefor

I&#39;m here because

--

DAVID: Are

you here

to

learn the

seals?

CLINT; And I&#39;m here because I care about

your flock.
the Lord

And I&#39;m because here

wants me to do.

I think this

is what

DAVID: Okay, well, here

Lord wants us to do and

is something

the

that&#39;shere. Christ

is the

root and
covenant about his

offspring of
that he

David. Now

David has a wonderful

And he his talks

reveals in here. He

Psalms 89. talks about

son Christ

righteousness that seed. And

heaven. And

one day God will establish his

come through

his

one day God will

let&#39;s find

kingdom in

out what

happens.

Says I

will sing

of the

mercies of

the Lord

92

, 9292

V
13

if O
forever: with faithfulness to shall be
92~

my mouth

will I

make known

my Mercy
thou shalt

all generations. forever: thy very heavens.

God and his rainbow,

Christ said, faithfulness

built up in the

establish
faithful than

And what&#39;s more

right? with my chosen, I have

I have

made a covenant

sworn unto forever, and

David my servant. Thy build up

The heavens

seed will to all

I establish

thy throne
shall praise in the

generations.
O Lord: saints.
The

thy wonders,

thy faithfulness
And it&#39;s true. The

also

congregation of
received Christ.

heavens have

heavens have

bowed down CLINT: And

to Christ, the wonders front of

the son are set me.

of David. forth in the

book that

I have

right in

DAVID: Exactly. be compared mighty can Noah. Not the prophets. to the be likened Moses. Not Nor even, God is greatly of the
that are

For who

in the

heaven can the

Lord? Who to the

among the Lord? Not

sons of Adam. Not

Elijah. Not even the to be had in

Enoch. Not angels. the

any of

feared in

assembly
all them

saints, and
about him.

to be
O Lord

reverence of

of hosts,

that&#39;s the father

who sits on thee? Or

round about

the throne, to thy

him? A

who is

a strong

Lord about thee?

like unto

faithfulness round
rainbow.

What&#39;s

Thou rulest

the raging

of the

sea:

when the

waves gereof thou them. has arise, stillest Thou

broken Rahabin pieces,
Rahab the harlot broken?
-.--an

92/rs

14

one that is slain.

By faith.
so she helped the

Now howis
servants, the way

She knew she

couldn&#39;t fight against God, didn&#39;t she? She was

God likes to do it.

saved by

faith. That&#39;s

Thou hast

scattered thine

enemies with

thy

strong arm.
thine:
hast founded

The heavens are thine,

the world
them. The

the earth
fulness thereof,
the south

also is
thou
thou hast

as for

and the
north and

created them:
name.

Tabor and

Hermon shall

rejoice in

thy

Thou hast and high

What does

a might

arm: strong

is thy

hand,

is thy
he hold

right hand.
above all

What&#39;s in God&#39;s right had?

the heaven? His word.

What&#39;s his word about?

His son.

That&#39;s why it&#39;s

called justice
throne. Well,

and judgment
mercy and CLINT: And

are the

habitation of
go -about those

thy

truth shall

we&#39;re talking

two

things being
about justice justice, and you, you
I believe

resolved in
taking place. see maybe

this situation.

we&#39;re talking

We&#39;re talking about I, maybe we&#39;re, this is differ. But

is held in

you and this is

and I,
that book.

and maybe

where we
that book

I believe

his hand.
take place

And I
in the

believe

that justice

and judgment
everyone that was

will

situation for

&#39; ~

.M;>_ U; involvrin the situation.

DAVID: I believe so too. But let&#39;s --

15
but I don&#39;t see a

CLINT: But,

but I,

reluctance spoken
~._-an

about here

to face

that judgment.
the Psalm. Okay?

DAVID: Well,

let&#39;s finish

Mercy and
to come

truth shall
and reveal

go before
this? The

thy face.
Lamb.

Who&#39;s going

Blessed is
sound. It&#39;s called the

the people
song of

that know
the Lamb.

the joyful
They shall

walk, 0Lord, in the light of

know the
watching me. In thy and in thou are
favour our

thy countenance. You

right now, right? He&#39;s

father is

watching you

He&#39;s watching everybody. name shall they rejoice shall they of their strength:
be exalted.

all be exalted. and in

For the

the day: For thy

our

thy righteousness the glory

horn shall

Lord is

defence; and

the Holy

One of

Israel is

our king.

Thou spakest in vision

said, I
exalted one

to thy holy one, and

is mighty; I have
have found

have laid

help upon
of the

one that
people. I

chosen out

David my with whom

also shall

servant; with my hand shall

strengthen him.

my holy

oil have

I anointed and mine

him: arm

be established:

The enemy
taxes, nor beat down the son his foes

shall not
of wickedness before his

exact upon
afflict face, and

him, which
him. I plague them will

is

0
that hate
be with him:

92

16
him. But
and in
I will

my faithfulness
my name shall his
hand also

and my mercy shall

horn be
in the

exalted.
his

set his

sea, and

Q--44

right hand
art my
Also I

in the
father, my
will make

rivers. He

shall cry

unto me, Thou

God, and the rock

him my firstborn, higher

of my salvation.
than the

kings of

the earth.

My mercy will I my covenant

keep for

him him.

forevermore, and
What is his

shall stand
seals. I make

fast with

covenant? Seven His seed also will

to endure

for ever,

and his

throne as law, walk

the days not in

of heaven. my judgments

If his --

children

forsake my

CLINT: When, covenant, could that also

when we&#39;re talking about be the New Testament?

is the

the

DAVID: It
seven seals.

is. The

New Testament

CLINT: No,
there is much rare

they
to the --

-there&#39;s -- okay.
New Testament than the

Now
seven

seals indiscernible! DAVID: Uhuh.

The new

-the

seven seals

is

the last part

finality of

of the
the New

New Testament.
Testament.

That is

the

CLINT: But,
gospel which is part of

but what,
the New

what men
Testament.

need is

the

DAVID: In gospel is the messages

Revelation 14, that tell

the everlasting you to fear God that

his jugant come.jlgment the has Which that revea

seven seals. You&#39;re right. T

ii

4 17

So but
..-4

if they

break my

statutes, and

keep

not my commandments; then will transgressions with the rod,

I visit and their

their iniquity with

stripes. But
not utterly
to fail.

nevertheless, my
take from him, nor

lovingkindness
suffer my

will I

&#39;

faithfulness

My covenant thing that is gone

will I

not break, my mouth.

nor alter Once have

the I sworn

out of

by my holiness
seed,
and

that I
know is
as the

will not

lie unto

David. His
endure forever,

which we

Christ, shall
sun before me. It

his throne

shall be

established for
witness in the

ever as
heaven.

the moon,

and as

the faithful

Sure. Come
Christ. See the witness?

on up

hither. See?
See the

There

is
But

seven seals?

what happens abhorred, thou

Why?

to Christ? hast been

But thou wroth

has cast

off and anointed.

with thine

Thou hast

made void

the covenant

of thy

servant: thou

hast profaned

his crown

by what?

Casting it
his hedges. Thou hast this. Terrible

to the

ground. Thou
on this

hast broken
place outside to ruin.

down all
here. Look at

Look around brought his

strong holds

what happens

to Christ.

All that

pass

92

E. 1

0 18
by thzway-CLINT: Well,
DAVID: No,
prophecy --

David, you can go through and

you candraw analogies and we can says.-IQ

no, no.
_

Let&#39;s let the

CLINT: -brought these things on.

we can

say it&#39;sterrible that

you

DAVID: I
never found

didn&#39;t bring these things

here.

on. You

nothing illegal

CLINT: No,
minute.

no, no,

David. Now

wait

DAVID: Now
let&#39;s finish the Psalm

let&#39;s wait
--

a minute.

You --

CLINT: David,

I&#39;m not talking -

okay,

we&#39;re, we&#39;re you talking,

talking again -- no,

know, if

you want

to start
that

no. You&#39;re the_first one

jumps and said that said look

Have you,

took us

out of

the Scriptures

and outside.

outside again.
had you

And I&#39;m saying look

to come up our -hedges?

been willing you tear had you

DAVID: Did CLINT: David, forward and

torn up.

been willing would have

to step been

resolve this,

no hedges

DAVID: Ever

since day

one --

CLINT: No
DAVID: You

hedges would
know why?

have been

torn up.

92

CLINT: you out say Iam. ,. Had come and here 19 AK

I am here to resolve DAVID: You CLINT: -~.-1

this situation. are not stand before informed.

I&#39;m hereto --

God and

man. And

will resolve

this -DAVID: Clint --

CLINT: -judgment on this.

because

the Lord

will have

his

DAVID: You&#39;re

not informed.

CLINT: Oh,
DAVID: You
CLINT: No.

David.
need to
From, from

Imean
go back

that&#39;s, that -over the

your

tapes.

day one

willingness to

come forward

and in

the Scriptures

that

we&#39;ve already looked at

and stand before the

say I&#39;m willing to

stand before

come forward
man and be

Lord and

judged if

Isin

or if

I didn&#39;t.
--

DAVID: Clint

CLINT: And
David.

Ihaven&#39;t seen you

do that,

DAVID: My
here that I&#39;m not able

book is
to teach

going to

teach everything
every

you. Because

time

Itry

to go

through these you have

Psalms you an ideal,

always you see

interrupt. Because

and when

something start

to come to light,
no.

you fight

against it.

CLINT: No,

DAVID:

It

says in

verse 41

--

92

3
him: he hast set
92.-.4

_}

" CLINT.

See

--

20
pass by his neighbors. of his the way spoil thou has It says adversaries; thou They think

DAVID: is a up the

all that

reproach to right hand

made his,
funny.

his enemies

to rejoice.

it&#39;s

CLINT: No.

DAVID: Thou
sword --

has turned

the edge

of his

CLINT: No, DAVID: -battle. What battle?

David. hast not made him to stand in the

CLINT: Let
anything -DAVID: What

me tell

you that

I, I

don&#39;t think

battle?

CLINT: --

is

funny. But

I&#39;ve got a real

responsibility to

discern

and identify

whether one

is

true prophet

or a false
DAVID: Okay. CLINT: And
DAVID: Let&#39;s

prophet. And

I&#39;m troubled.

I&#39;m verytroubled ---

CLINT: -DAVID: Let&#39;s

with this. finish --

CLINT: My,
DAVID: --

my heart
the word --

--

CLINT: --

and my spirit is

troubled with,

Q/A
with what I hear.
DAVID: Let&#39;s finish the word of God. It

~92 -~

=1

says in verse 44, thou has; made hisglory to cease.

s-1

You know and the

And you

one day next day

know what?

you can you can

be at the be right

top of back down

the universe, here again.

the I

Those who

don&#39;t want to know want to know you.

seven seals,

they&#39;re not going to think you

cast his

don&#39;t care who you

Thou hast

are.
throne down to the ground.

Sure, you

love the

Lord, Clint,

right?

CLINT: Absolutely,
DAVID: But
him.

David.
you you don&#39;t know

I&#39;m telling

CLINT: Yes,

I do.

I, I

do

--

DAVID: The
shortened: thou

days of

his youth
him with

hast thou
shame.

hast covered

CLINT: No,
right past
Lord --

now see
And to

you&#39;re, you&#39;re going

say I don&#39;t know the

that again.

DAVID: Who
CLINT: --

is this
that&#39;s not

person in

this Psalm?
not

correct. That&#39;s

correct, David.

DAVID: who CLINT: And don&#39;t know the Lord

is this to sell and to

person in -- to take away

this Psalm? they

tell someone that personal

relationship --

."

i VDAVID:
0.-i

/&#39; _92_ Look -from someone exactly what is wrong, David.

22
happened -that&#39;s wrong.

CLINT: -

DAVID: That&#39;s CLINT: I

really believe

DAVID:
honest.

2,000

years ago,

Clint. Let&#39;s

be

CLINT: And
personal relationship
DAVID: Hey. CLINT: -

you&#39;re attempting to take

--

away a

I have

and that&#39;s

incorrect.

DAVID: Clint, Pharisees said

fornication. We

let&#39;s be honest. The we be

sons of

to Christ,
be the

not sons
God. Christ

born of
tried to

tell them
shame. Thou

opposite. It
hast cast

says thou
his -

hast covered

him with

CLINT: And, worried about upon the that this

and this situation is

is the

shame that bringing shame

I&#39;m

Lord and,

and it&#39;s --

DAVID: It&#39;s bringing shame

correct.

upon me.

You&#39;re

CLINT: No,

no. It&#39;s

bringing shame

upon the

Lord, David.
DAVID: Hey, CLINT: Who DAVID: I
the seven seals or

l
who do do you know who
not?

you think think you I am.

I am? are? Do you want to know

.4
23

CLINT: No,

David. who

do you

-you

know,

if, if
not, then
and I
.~

you feel
I have

you&#39;re the Christ then

a personal

say it.

But if
the Lord,

relationship with
is with you.

don&#39;t feel that relationship DAVID: Well,

you shouldn&#39;t go by

your

feelings. Can at something?

dealing with

we turn This is
today. CLINT: If,

to Psalms a problem

2 real

quick and

look

that we&#39;reactually

if we

get to

Psalm 2

that&#39;s,

that&#39;s a very
Christ. And
Christ.

messianic Psalm.
I don&#39;t have the

It deals

strictly with

evidence I&#39;m talking to

DAVID: Well,
know that Psalms 2 is

okay. That&#39;s fine. But

about the heathen raging

we
and the

people imagine strictly look just Christ.

a vain at it

thing, right? in the light of okay?

Let&#39;s just Christ. Not i me,

Your Christ,

The kings
the rulers
they?

of the

earth set

themselves, and
together, don&#39;t

now they&#39;re take counsel

CLINT: Well, tell me who you

you know,

if, if

you want you

to

are, I&#39;ll hear it,

who am I and
I have

David. But
to answer

can&#39;t say to me
are the
that.

expect me
not seen

you

Christ. Because

evidence of

DAVID: Okay.

Well, let&#39;s just look

at

.-

=,

a5
Psalms 2 and look at the evidence

j _.,
of Psalms 2 of

24
who

Christ is.
stumbling block.
-"a

Forget about me. Don&#39;t me be your let

CLINT: No, up, David. You brought

you&#39;re theone that it up. And I about it.

who told Lamb. And

brought

it it.

responded to

And now you&#39;re saying to forget

DAVID: I&#39;m the one father gave the book to the

you that

the

I&#39;m hereto show

you the
that so

seven seals.
--

Now you&#39;re ready not

to receive

CLINT: And,

and who

is the

Lamb?

DAVID: -what we can receive.

let&#39;s just, let&#39;s just receive

CLINT: And who is the Lamb, David?

DAVID: The Clearly. Scripture Lamb is teaches it Christ, the clearly. But need to son of God. there&#39;s, look at some

there&#39;s so much Scripture

of it first.

here we
~

CLINT: No,

you know,

it&#39;s just

that by

implication, David,
seals --

you&#39;re saying if you

can open

the

DAVID: Then

I am

Christ, the

son of

God.

CLINT: Christ, the son of

then men
God.

should proclaim

you&#39;re

DAVID: Exactly.
am Christ, the son of God,

But I

will never
not

say that

because that&#39;s

x
25

necessary. Let God&#39;sshow youwho I am. Let me word

show you -&#39;
CLINT: No, see, see, that&#39;s, that&#39;swhere

have a problem.
~.--at

Because it

can be

only the

Lamb. And

Ican&#39;tsay that

that&#39;s you, and you

won&#39;t say that that

it&#39;s you. Therefore, I,

theme. Ireally can&#39;t.

Ican&#39;tcontinue on

DAVID: Well, then. Can we please

CLINT: No,
DAVID: Please?

let&#39;s just look do that?

it&#39;s --

at Psalms all right?

Is that

CLINT: No, I&#39;ve I really feel this is I, wrong, David. I, Ifeel

is it

this is

spiritually wrong.
about me.

DAVID: Why

wrong? Forget

Let&#39;s just learn a

prophecy about that. It and the

Christ in says the rulers take

Psalms 2. kings of counsel

There&#39;s nothing wrong with the earth set themselves, the Lord,
one is

together, against
We know
son of

and against
Christ, Jesus

his anointed.
Christ, the

the anointed
God.

But they&#39;re saying let

asunder and want? They cast their don&#39;t want to CLINT: No, Revelation, chapter but cords from know the see this

us break
us. What seven takes me on --

their bands
do they seals. back to not

5, moving

DAVID: Chapter

4, exactly.

92 -92

92. .92

V!! 9

CLINT: --moving on chaoteragain in 5

l
DAVID: So he that sits in the heavens,

2s

and --

92~qI

that&#39;s the father, shall

at those
seven seals

laugh. The
to the

Lord is

laughing
the

who will
--

not listen

man teaching

CLINT: No.
worthy, David. And -DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: --

No, no.

I --

it says

he who is

And you
I don&#39;t --

--

DAVID: --

won&#39;t knowuntil he

comes to

show

you the seven seals.

I will declare the

Now it says right

decree: the Lord said

here in

verse 7
Thou

unto me,

art my
Yes. I,

Son; this

day have I, have

the Lord

I begotten
did say to me

thee.
I have

I am he. And

begotten thee.
again. Now
understand --

Because in 1959 is when

be too
=

I was begotten

that may

hard for

you to

CLINT: No,

begotten again

and, and

I can

go

and sure could say

with you I would

when I was born

again, David. that.

And I

hope you would understand the thing of it

DAVID: Well,

is you

being

born again, you&#39;re born thegrace ofChrist which under

is for all men. Not even just Christians. Buddhist,

Islamic, all
can only

faiths who

don&#39;t know they&#39;re what doing

And that&#39;s why you can&#39;t

do what they know.

.9 92

~U92 ~
for the safety of
If you
Quad

27
C
and you was taught you do that what

judge anybody else, because Christ mediatesheaven in

all souls.
were a pygmy,

you&#39;re supposedto worship you see to do,

a rock,

and if

and it&#39;sall you the way it is

know, then where I

you&#39;re in

Christ. That&#39;s

come from.

But whenthe world has to come to its final

judgment, there&#39;s one question nations. Who theologian and is worthy? everyone who to be herald amongst all and every name of Christ And every scholar claims the

who&#39;s under his mercy and they&#39;reto say

opinion is that. And then good opinions. the thing. The be. And

remember are well, my

to come this. My

honestly,

opinion is

I&#39;m supposed to say

well, those

are

You&#39;ve donereally well. seven seals so in Psalms are none

But here&#39;s but what they

claim to

45, God&#39;sthe one

talking, and
married in

the king
Revelation 19.

is Christ.
I want

And he&#39;s going to

to invite you to a

get

party, to your mind

mind of a perfect

the marriage with the

Christ which

of the

Lamb. I the prophets

mind of

want to

unite the

minds of
is the

which is
bring about

God to

harmonious deliverance. CLINT: See, see that, that union takes

place, that
basis. And

union takes
to say

place within

me on a daily
the seven

that until

you reveal

92

seals to

me that

that union

is not

correct I,

I really

don&#39;t believe that. I

DAVID: Well,

-i
now, it&#39;s not complete.

CLINT: He,
s--1

he is,
-put him
away from

he is in

me, David.

And

you can&#39;t take that DAVID: Who

CLINT: --

there?
me.

DAVID: who CLINT: I

DAVID: Now

put him put him

wait a

there? there.
minute, when you was a

child, who
I&#39;m asking.

first told

you about

Christ? That&#39;s

what

CLINT: What

are you

getting at,

David? you

DAVID: I&#39;msaying that about Christ. mother or to you

related to

someone told

Someone showed you Christ. your father or your and in neighbor or

Either your someone came and

in meekness
you -

the spirit
,

of Christ

CLINT: Yeah, someone telling

it into me.

but there&#39;s a difference me to accept and

in take

me and then from

DAVID: Exactly.

CLINT: Two,
mean someone can tell

two different
me about

situations.
II, or

I
someone

World War

can tell

me about

Buddhism or

Catholicism or

something

else, but

it&#39;s, but it&#39;s choice and my

to take

it in.

92z;<i&#39;
DAVID: Right. And so

v =9
I&#39;m asking you and

begging you you&#39;d look if please with mein the

Scripture and
.414

receive what

I have

to share you know,

with you. it, it,

CLINT: Well,
until --

you know,

DAVID: I&#39;mjust knocking

know.

at the

door, you

CLINT: --

until I&#39;m convinced, until

in my

heart, until

in the

discernment that&#39;s been given can&#39;t, David. I

me

I&#39;m convincedyou&#39;re theLamb, I

honestly can&#39;t do that.

DAVID: But first listen appear to

you these

you can&#39;t convinced be fool and I am what you, see if

unless you you

to this think that

seals. CLINT: No,
DAVID: Because

and what

and, and

I can&#39;t show

it&#39;s, it&#39;s what not

God&#39;s not a liar.

-I can&#39;t

deceive you.

Either it&#39;s
CLINT: I&#39;ve --

going --

DAVID: -

to be

the seals

or it&#39;s

not.

CLINT: I&#39;ve not come that you are or that you&#39;re

with

a predisposition

not. I&#39;m, I&#39;m measuring

you on your words

to me. and, with And based

and on the discernment

upon that may say so far, you are

that&#39;s given

I&#39;m not comfortable within your flock

who others

* &#39;~.

I becameto look the way I am or in Psalms 61. It says

all my members were written in
continuance were
~.-1

thy book,
as yet

which in
there --

fashioned, when

CLINT: How,
Isaiah 53? _

how do

you identify

with, with

DAVID: Well,
Isaiah 53 a continuation

very clearly
of Isaiah

you can
52. In

see in
Isaiah 52,

we deal

with the

one who brings glad

tidings.

Therefore my

people shall
They shall

know my name. What

know in that day

name?
I am the

The name of God.

Lord that speak.

CLINT: Yeah,
DAVID: Then --

see now

I --

CLINT:
David.

-I

can&#39;t ascribe

that name

to you,

DAVID: Well,

wait a

minute. You

don&#39;t know

that name
of God.

yet. In

Revelation 19,
,

his name

is the

word

CLINT: Yeah,
difference. I ascribe the know the name to

see I
word of

- no,

see

that&#39;s the
I don&#39;t

God, but what --

you from

DAVID: Well,
CLINT: seen. I

then in
from what

Isaiah -I&#39;ve heard and what I&#39;ve

honestly don&#39;t.

DAVID: Wait or seen hardly anything

a minute. yet, because

But you

haven&#39;t heard

you keep

1 ~

$8
interrupting me.

3*
Let&#39;s takea look at Proverbs 30 real quick. that we 30 is
look at.

Now Proverbs
Q44

a, is

a very

wonderful truth
see Solomon taking on

should all

Here we

different names. Agur the spake unto son of

And it&#39;s prophecy. a Jakeh, even the prophecy:

The words the man Ucal.

of

Ithiel, even CLINT: Wait,

unto Ithiel

and to

wait. You&#39;re,

you&#39;re in

Proverbs 2?

DAVID: Chapter CLINT: Okay.

30.

DAVID: I&#39;msorry. Chapter

CLINT: Wait a minute. Wait

30. Now
a minute.

verse 2.

DAVID: Surely
man, and have not

I am more brutish
of a man.

than any
I

the understanding

neither learned holy. Who Who hath

wisdom, nor

have the up into

knowledge of

the

hath ascended gathered the

heaven, or

descended? who hath

wind in

his fists?

bound the
all the
is his

waters in
ends of

his garment?
What is

Who hath established

his name, and what

the earth?

son&#39;s name?

CLINT: Every shield unto them that

DAVID: Add

word of put their

thou not

God is trust in
unto his

pure: he him.
words --

is a

CLINT: Add
reprove thee --

thou not

unto his

words, least

he

Q!
h DAVID:
CLINT:

3
And thou
and

3.
ar.
a liar.

be found
thou be found

DAVID: So are those

s-mi

also the Lord

in Psalms their trust,

40 it

says blessed respecteth

that make

not the
in the

proud, nor
volume of

such as
the book

turn aside
that&#39;s written

to lies.
of me.

I come

cum: I
DAVID: If
seals --

No -you don&#39;t me let show the seven

CLINT: I, came with an open

I have mind, and

to tell I wanted

you, David, to have I wanted just, to the

that I

opportunity to work through through me

could hear

talk to me, and in the

and I

you because I wanted him to

the Lord work

to

discernment
can understand.

that he&#39;s
And I

granted me

so I

don&#39;t find the

fruit

in you

that allows

me to, that would

to believe. allow me

And I to identify

haven&#39;t heardyou say

you as the Lamb on my own.

DAVID: Well, we know one thing. And that

is, the

truth is

the Lamb,

isn&#39;t it? sets me

in his

CLINT: Well,
DAVID: If will know truth will set the seven

the truth
we continue seals which is But if

free, David.
doctrine, we And the time no

the truth. when there&#39;s

us free.&#39;

longer we

do not

allow

a brother,

a brother to open

that we up to

may

not understand,

we may not accept,

us the

92

0
seals, we might just
Christ.
CLINT: You know --

O 34
find ourselves
i

fighting against

m.-1

DAVID: There&#39;s a possibility you

know.

CLINT: How
earth, David?

many years did Christ

spend on

DAVID: Thirty-three

years.

CLINT: And
the seven seals?

how many times did

he talk

about

DAVID: All
that his doctrine was

through by
not his

trying to

establish
the preface.

own, it was

That&#39;s why gospel the

he committed
the followers

wasn&#39;t finished then. That&#39;s why

into the
would see

his spirit
of Christ

hand of
that really

God. So

that

Christ

was the

fulfillment of

prophecy. And

that finally

in

the latter

days the gentiles, who

they would

are called
to have

to this
the up like

blessed hope, prophecies so to them in the

have a chance

-nat when he came again he of the

would open

the understanding last part of

Scriptures. Just Luke and John. It

Matthew, Mark,

says and opened he to them the Scriptures.A

CLINT: I don&#39;t -- David, I guess where I&#39;m

at, and

I don&#39;t want to

take away

from your

word to

your flock.
listen and

But to me
discern, I

as a Christian in
don&#39;t hearit, David.

my ability

to

I&#39;m sorry.

No, and

I&#39;m not sorry. even

It&#39;s justwhere I,

it&#39;s

0
just where I feel the Lord moving you&#39;re sharing and with where you
there, David.
sand

&#39; as
through me with what with what&#39;s taken place and

are in

space and time right

And I just don&#39;t, I, I

now, I&#39;m not just

don&#39;t see the

Lord in

this matter.

DAVID: Well,
You know, in, in

remember there&#39;s seven seals.

Romans 6 -Lord -when Christ walked the

CLINT: The

earth, he
seven seals.

didn&#39;t beat people the

over the

head with

the

DAVID: Oh,

wait

a minute.

Remember, that people with

is a hammer to

is

God&#39;s word. Don&#39;t say God that

the truth. He doesn&#39;t. But the

beats the
truth

the wicked
the wheat

though. That&#39;s why Jeremiah

into the chaff? Is not my

says what
a

is

word like

hammer? Does
the prophets.

it not

break in

pieces? I

mean listen

to

CLINT: David, DAVID: And

I do. the thing

I do. --

I --

CLINT: -you have listening to

DAVID: Well,

I spent

more years
--

on earth

than

the prophets
that&#39;s true.

CLINT: --

in all

honesty. I

really have.

And you you. I

know, I, wanted the

I wanted

the opportunity you to to be an FBI

to share

with

opportunity for who happens

experience a agent who

brother Christian

would do anything thatthe Lordwould have doto him

resolve this and give glory to Christ. And I don&#39;t see

U 36

a willingness,
92..-A

David, on your part

-- look, did I

to do that.
not tell you I was

DAVID: I

writing out
out as

the seven seals? Did

I finished my work?

I not

tell you

I&#39;d be

soon as

CLINT: David,
DAVID: That

you&#39;ve said-way --

CLINT: -were going never read to do

you&#39;ve said and time know, I

again you I the

things. You

never saw, ever where

anywhere in

the Scriptures

Lord promised he would do something and then took it

back again. DAVID: How about I&#39;ll come quickly? Is

2,000 years

quickly? Answer

me that.

Can you

honestly -

many, many skeptics of

the world

say Christ

said he&#39;d back quickly. What be

is? CLINT: Well, look back in the 5 you know, if,

does he think quickly

if

we want

to tense in

Greek and

talk about

what the

Greek meant,
you didn&#39;t --

you know,

that&#39;s the,you know, you

said

DAVID:

Fine.

CLINT: --

you said

you didn&#39;twant to

get

into these
it again.

type of

dissertations, and

now you&#39;re doing

a
DAVID: well, what does

37
quickly mean in the

Greek?
CLINT: Yeah,

l
well, what&#39;s, what&#39;s your

interpretation, David? DAVID: Well,

means a short time.

I mean it means

-exactly that. It

h CLINT:
about a day is
indiscernible! is

Well, and what, and what are we told

to how
to a

many years
day --

and how

many

DAVID: Well,
to Daniel and Numbers

each day
25 and

for

a year
the thing

according
of it

29. But

is that according
years.

to Peter

a day

unto God

is 1,000

CLINT: Exactly. DAVID: So he it&#39;s been 2,000 years. So

he didn&#39;t come quickly. CLINT: So we&#39;re talking about, so we&#39;re

talking about
pretty quick.

2 days.

That&#39;s pretty quick. That&#39;s

DAVID: I.didn&#39;t
you think I said 2 days?

say 2

days. Did

you, did

CLINT: No, years and talking about

if we&#39;resaying

a day

is to

1,000

we&#39;re talking about 2,000 potentially 2

DAVID: well, true.

years, we&#39;re

days.

CLINT: Right?

5 . I 38

DAVID: Right.
the carnal mind would

So the thing of
that be considered

it is
a true

but to

statement by Christ? But

taken so
-. -4

Ican

tell you

why it&#39;s, it&#39;s

long.

CLINT:

Idon&#39;t,Idon&#39;t consider, David, statements that

bring glory

that you&#39;ve done true

statements that,

you&#39;ve made true

unto God. that

that would

DAVID: Well,

I&#39;m hoping that everything

I&#39;ve said taped. is

take a look at Hebrews

Because like,
15:4 Ibelieve

you know,
it is

if you
says

whatever things our learning.

of the

were written That we

aforetime were patience

written for and comfort

through the
have hope.

Scriptures might

You know, consolation grant another according have the the seven
things too,

now the you to to the

God of

patience one Now

and towards

be likeminded Christ Jesus. then if we should

if we&#39;re

to

same mind seals in

like Christ, heaven,

Christ receives receive these

shouldn&#39;t we?

CLINT: David,
that if you believe, if you

I,

Iguess
know that

where I&#39;m at
your

is

responsibility is
come out, I think

to complete
you should

your manuscript
do that.

and then

DAVID: Well, CLINT: I

I&#39;ve got to. think you should -the other hand from

DAVID: Because

see on

.__

0
your point of view, I agree
see

39
with you
in my

too. You
past records

know,
- now

I&#39;m in America. You&#39;ll

that 1988
out, you
~-.4

deal if
know, we,

you really
we did

look at
nothing wrong.

it you&#39;ll find
I mean
were

you

might say

whoa, what,

guns. But

see, we

instructed also.

That&#39;s something that&#39;s very intimate

with the

Sheriff&#39;s Department. But we came out of it,

come on out of
far as

and we plan to
And as

this one

too.
their

those who

have lost

lives, we
merciful.

regret that.

But we

know that

God is

Now I&#39;m going not

what the authorities did

to sit
to us

here and

say that
because I

was anything,

know that,

that there&#39;s a great

offense to

that. But

remember, you
comes down

know, we lost loved

real meaning

ones too.
of love.

And now it
going

to the

God is

to judge us all whether righteous or wicked.

CLINT: Oh,
DAVID: And merciful. But vengeance. And will not
that God

yes he will, David.

the thing also a God of it is we know God and mercy, God all men is

God is

of judgment not shown to tell

for those

who have

show mercy.
is a God

And we want to,

of mercy.

And as long as this shadow over my head, is

when I come out you know as well as I do there&#39;s not

going to

be any

time for

me to

sit down

and say

well,

fl:

I I,
let&#39;s turn to Psalms 2. Let&#39;s turn to Psalms 40.

40
It&#39;s

just not

going to

be.
David, the same time that you

CLINT: Well,
Sud

have tocomplete your manuscript would be afforded you

if you time. You dictate, to came out 15 minutes from now. The exact to write, much better, same to much would have pass on, better conditions to duplicate

better conditions
They it -DAVID: That

than what

you have

right now.

is not

true.

CLINT: on,
DAVID: It

it is.
is not.

CLINT:
I&#39;m lying to you, never would lie to

It is.
David. And you. And

Well, see

now that&#39;s saying

I don&#39;t, I don&#39;t and I -But you to know

DAVID: Well, also got on the phone and

that&#39;s what you say. told me you wanted

what my take you

beliefs were. to a

And every

time I&#39;vetried to it off that.

Scripture, you&#39;ve slightly moved brought in this and

beliefs. And
-

and slightly
Really you

brought in
you&#39;re --

have your
CLINT: No

DAVID: beliefs. And belief is

outside.

and you&#39;re settled in

your And your

you&#39;re confirming your beliefs. your belief.

Now you&#39;re free. You&#39;re on the

0
CLINT: You&#39;ve never given answer, David, as to - &#39;
If the DAVID: Look.

Q 41
me a straight
seven seals are true,

yes, I&#39;m Lamb the

~41

of God.

Yes, I&#39;m Christ. If don&#39;t know they if

the are

seven seals according to

yet.

are true.

But you

my testament,

because you

haven&#39;t heard it

CLINT:

Well, I&#39;ll

--

DAVID: You
of the doubt. Look CLINT: --

see, I&#39;m giving you

the benefit

I&#39;ll look

forward

V DAVID:

on

the other

hand all

I am

is a

good friend

of yours. CLINT: -I&#39;ll look forward to reading, I&#39;ll David.

look forward

to reading

your manuscript,

DAVID: well,
don&#39;t expect from anybody expect you always been.
CLINT: No, I,

praise the
any respect

Lord. Otherwise,
that I don&#39;t

to give

anybody else.

That&#39;s the way I&#39;ve

Iwould

never treat

you any

way other

than I

would treat

myself or

expect

--

DAVID: which CLINT: DAVID: If that&#39;s Christ

of God.

is Christianity. be treated, you find see, a bum every man David. in the street, is a son
sons

to

too. You
of God

of God
that. Some

Some sons

don&#39;t know

42
of God don&#39;t knowwhat we know. You&#39;re appointed a

minister by God to impart to others what you yourself

have received.

~.. honest --

CLINT: which do on a I daily

DAVID: which
to do.

basis in an
is

is what

your responsibility

CLINT: DAVID: But

forthright way.
now it comes time that we have to

come into the unity of the faith. And

to be revealed from faith to faith is

the final
the seven

faith
seals.

And I

have never seals. But

cut down

anybody&#39;s interpretation

of

the seven

I&#39;ve alwaysasked the question,

well can you show me from the prophets where these

seals are found?

CLINT: David,

through my

discernment

--

well, I

think you

should spend and if

that&#39;s what

your time

and finish should be

your manuscrip-,
shared, I think

you&#39;re ledthat that

you should do.

DAVID: I&#39;ve got to. you say

to do

And it&#39;s because not Idon&#39;tget

so, it&#39;s because I&#39;m bound. See,

what Iwant to do.

CLINT: But that if in fact

what you

need to to

understand

is God on

your reluctance

stand before

the outside

of your
DAVID: I&#39;m

complex and man and resolve this

not.

--

&#39; 43
CLINT: -is, is only has to do with the

transcription of
that&#39;s not
sq

the seven seals,

get the
the next

then that&#39;s time

message out.
week or

needed to
lost in

And how many

2 weeks or 3

souls

will be

weeks if
them that
share that.

you feel
the faster
And I

the seals
you got
see that

is going
out the

to impact
faster you

upon
could
of

as a responsibility

yours that
responsible for

you&#39;re nottaking on,

that.

David. And

you&#39;re

DAVID: Well, understand the say, this

I appreciate

that. And But again

I can like I And

way you&#39;re seeing it. not of you come a big

truth is

man. It&#39;s of God. up hither, that&#39;s a big

remember, when statement and

heaven. And this world

step to

take. Because

that&#39;s
anybody in back.

I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve ever met that&#39;s gone there yet or come

CLINT: Well,
DAVID: Well, things about something to it. Because consider.

I look

forward to

it.
show you some

and I&#39;dlike to maybe I

have. That&#39;s

CLINT: Well,
if --

see maybes

and possible

and

DAVID: Well,

if I

told you

had you

wouldn&#39;t

believe me
Laughing.! I

anyway. You&#39;d say oh,

mean it&#39;s just like

David, come
2,000 years ago.

on.

Christ says

I tell

you the

truth, and

you won&#39;t believe

D
me. Then they, then they brought him
Are thou will not

44
- after all that he did tell
tell

they, they
us now. you, you
v--n

before the
or no?

Pharisees, well,
He says if I

the Christ believe me.

A It&#39;s just, you

foundation of Moses. Christ spoke

know, we&#39;ve such got

Christ spoke Christ spoke

a greater

many prophets.

through

through Joshua.

through the
the prophets.

Judges. Christ

spoke through

Isaiah and

CLINT: I careful, David,

and dishonor

just, I

just want

you to

be

that, that
on Christianity.

you don&#39;t bring discredit

DAVID: Well,

now I

think Christianity

nominally speaking

has brought

much dishonor,

discredit

upon itself. You know CLINT: And DAVID: history. each new -Christianity L person that has a pretty -dark

CLINT: Each
makes a claim and brings DAVID: Exactly. those two witnesses are

new person
more upon

that stands
it. as far

up and

Now remember concerned, Zechariah

as tells you

point blank you any

the Lord that Christ

what he otherwise. The

of the

was shown.

And I

would not ones sits down

show by

two anointed
earth. We

whole

know 2,000 Transfiguration, Moses

years ago and

on the

Mount of

-.
Elijah appeared to him, correct? correct.

4.5
CLINT: That&#39;s correct.
DAVID: And we know that Christ is the one

Q...-an

who bridges the Old Testament law of Moses and the New Testament grace which was revealed through Elijah, he for 3-1/2 rebuked strongly. years. But it was strictly to Elijah. bring his

And God brought a famine

children around to realize importance the of listening

to him.

CLINT: But
End of tape 232.!

just

-the

--

U.S. DEPARTMENT

OF THE

TREASURY

BUREAU OF

ALCOHOL, TOBACCO

8 FIREARMS

~--:9

TAPE #233

4/15/93
Pu: _

&#39; 4/16/93
AOMO

~ .

O O
Tape 233!
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: -- message you have to

2
that mankind needs to hear it.

share is
Q4

so important

The reluctance

to complete

it in

the most

-- in

the

fastest means possible and those that&#39;ll lost be

because of that message
DAVID KORESH:

not -You don&#39;thave to -- being worry shared.

znot

--

UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:
DAVID KORESH: - about

them. They&#39;re

going to
Every man

be lost
is going

based upon
to be

what they

don&#39;t know.
does now.

judged by

what he

Now, everybody in Waco

knows that there&#39;s

this crazy

guy here seven seals.

that?

that&#39;s supposed to be

teaching the
what is
David --

They&#39;re going to say

to themselves:

UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:

DAVID KORESH:
place --

And they&#39;re going all

over

the

UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:You have to respond,

have to respond to what you
and you

you

think your

level of
do that. And -been easy with some

responsibility is

have to

DAVID KORESH: you. Because, like I

Well, it&#39;s not tried to

say, I

show you

things, and just cannot you discern

deceive you.

every time

we start

looking into

it --

you that

be me and, so, in your

that&#39;s where say you I&#39;m just trying to

spirit that

&#39; 2

I
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:

I
What, what I want,

David, is

for you

then to
feel led

complete your
and to

manuscript if
and to

that&#39;s the way you

~..-4

share that

bring your

flock out,
DAVID KORESH:

further share

that message
the glory

-of our

Well, that&#39;s

generation -UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: possible.

DAVID KORESH: UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: -isn&#39;t it? And --

-- as

quickly as

DAVID KORESH: and honesty and singleness

To not

only stand but to

before God be able to

of heart,

stand before

men and to let

UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:

men judge

likewise.
when

And I&#39;ll see you

you come

out, David.

DAVID KORESH:

would you

like us

to send

the

tape to

you so

you can

study

it more

thoroughly?
is made

UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:

The decision

that we&#39;renot picking

DAVID KORESH:

anything up
Oh, okay.

like that.

UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:
decision.

And that&#39;s not

my

DAVID KORESH:

Okey-doke. Okay? I&#39;d better

UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: DAVID KORESH: get back to my work then.

Okey-doke. Well,

DO
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:

4
forward to

We&#39;ll look

it, David
DAVID

KORESH: And

I&#39;lltalk

to you

later

.41

then. Bye-bye.
**** DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE

Hello?

SCHNEIDER: Good
Steve? SCHNEIDER: Yeah?

morning.
"

Dick. SCHNEIDER: Dick?

How are

you doing?
too bad. It&#39;s been a

SCHNEIDER: Not

long

time
DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE

Oh, yeah.

Been awhile.
have you been?

SCHNEIDER: Where Oh, here and there.

SCHNEIDER:* So,

you haven&#39;t been around

here then

or DICK:

--

No, I&#39;ve been here

for, for

a little

bit.
STEVE DICK:

SCHNEIDER: So,

you&#39;re back in then?

Well, you

said you for you I said I

that.

were coming to come was coming

out out. out?

af-- so

thought I&#39;d be here STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Oh, yeah.

Imeant,

meant

I.

U O
DICK: Just when, right?

5
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.&#39; There&#39;s been always

that time

element.
DICK: Yeah. Well.

v.--v

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

God&#39;s watching to see

what

everybody&#39;s doing and, you communicate as

fall on deaf ears.

know, we&#39;ve been trying but, of course, words

to

best as

we can,

DICK: Well,

I&#39;m notsure what

you mean

by

that. What
ears?

words are

you talking

about and

whose deaf

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Well, you

know, they

a lot

of times in the get into

keep on

a lot

of the

phone calls

lately have

been us to I
more

nature where the system,

reminding them

they&#39;re, of course, wanting which we

of the

will be
court that

doing. But
I fear

than any,
all will

and that&#39;smore for

stand in that court.

yourselves, you

know. We

DICK: Well,

you, you

know, I

know what

you&#39;re saying, Steve, but,

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK:
can deal with that

of course
Yeah, I

-know you do. we

we&#39;re, we&#39;re ready

issue ourselves.

I mean,

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: You know.

Oh, it&#39;s an --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

The reason

I was

going to

%- &#39;

il O
give you a ring right now is because one of the were Bradleys ran
right in
-.~-vi

6
into the building where
there, and I think

the children
-I

their room

don&#39;t know

if one
there was

-if

it hit
a number

right by
of them

the crib
started crying.

or what, but

DICK: When&#39;s that? Now

mean?

just recently,

you

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Yeah.

DICK: Just

moments ago?
Yeah.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: Okay.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Did, didn&#39;t

they tell

you

ahead of

time they
DICK: Well,

were going

to do

that or
it, but

--- you

I&#39;m notaware of

know, it,
your word.

it&#39;s certainly
We --

possible. I&#39;m

not doubting
side of the

what happened,

now? What

building are

we talking

about?
Well, I, I think you

STEVE SCHNEIDER:= probably know -DICK: No.

I&#39;m, I&#39;m

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: quite truthful

YOU

okay. with you.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

It&#39;s right

in the

front.

DICK: Okay.
just moments -STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Right in

front of

the building

Yeah.

Q
DICK: ago?
Yeah. STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: Okay.
~--vi

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

They just

came and

told me

that the
one that

children were
was right
DICK: Well,

crying. Apparently,
there in
I-

there was
there. So.

the room
we, we

can check

on that

and, and

I&#39;m --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -not sure

okay.
why. But, on the other

hand, I,

I certainly

am not

doubting you.
No. I&#39;m, I&#39;m sureyou

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
wouldn&#39;t doubt me.

DICK: You

know, the

- you,

you mentioned

earlier that coming out.

you guys And, of

-you

know, you

talked about

course, that&#39;s, that&#39;s the We all know you&#39;re

or later.

question everybody&#39;s asked: when?

coming out. You have to come

out sooner
Um-hum.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: Obviously. I think that&#39;s have tried

days, as

We, we the issue,

all

know that.

And

been the, to discuss

that the

people

with you
at least,

over

the last
that&#39;s --

couple of

far as

that&#39;s

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -been my

Right. understanding. Right.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

.&#39; _

0O
DICK: And,
about when

8
of course, there&#39;s all this talk
- you know, writing the

David&#39;s finished

his interpretation
...4I

of the seven And, of

seals, that

that might suggested --

be meaningful.
well --

course, someone

STEVE SCHNEIDER: you get

with Clint? or anything?

Did you

get --

Dick, did you had

to hear

anything about

the conversation
or the

I mean

either comments

tape itself

DICK: No.
wi-- for some --

I, I

know that

he and

Clint spoke
concerning --

what, nearly

three hours Right.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -the seals.

STEVE SCHNEIDER

3 Correctly

DICK: And gone over, that time Ithink, and I--

some of earlier. But and to

that, of

course, Clint was question

we had not here at

answer your

truthfully, no,
DICK: --

I&#39;mof aware not

Okay.
the total conversation.

--

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

STEVE SCHNEIDER: conversation, just course, for me it

DICK: Um-hum.

I sat, what was a one-sided

Isat

there by Of

the

to hear was only

all said.

conversation.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

But --

DICK: Well,

I know

Clint was

-- in

fact, I

II
think he

.~92
tried to call in last night
Yeah, he

,
and talk
did.

9
to you --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -for --

~.-&#39;1

STEVE SCHNEIDER: was such a cold night, I

They came says well, how

to get

me.

It

important is

it,

I asked them.

And then

Isaid

well, you

know, if

it&#39;s to when -interested. But

cold, I, IDICK:

they mentioned
to sit up when

the questions,
it was so

Iwas

freezing

so,

he wrote them
Yes. Scott did. Yeah. Scott

down.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

did. And

--

DICK: And

it was

answered,

Ithink,

to some

degree today.
terms of the --

Well, how

did, how

did they

leave

it in

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Well, he

--

DICK: -David --

the conversation

today?

was

~ STEVE

SCHNEIDER: -Of

course, he

-- well,

he

got off
know, you

pretty abruptly,
and Iboth he really
--

Clint did.
know that had a he never

Idon&#39;t-- you
calls for for the

reason because
himself to

deep interest

DICK: That&#39;s

--

now, that&#39;s

--

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: --

-- indiscernible!.
at all true. In fact --

that&#39;s not

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Oh. Well,

may--

well,

I iD
maybe it was -DICK: It was with some interest. In fact

10
--

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
M!

I see. Isuggested

Okay. to him personally

DICK:

In fact,

that, that given the

we had --

probably period of

it was

not a

reasonable thing

to do because

time we&#39;re talking about,

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: --

Right. talked before early on in this, in

this thing

about those
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

things.
Uh-huh.

DICK: But - was very serious

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

- so, about --

in, in

fact, Clint

is very

I don&#39;t

--

DICK: -STEVE SCHNEIDER:

asking those questions.

You know, you know what?

I&#39;m res--it&#39;s like it&#39;s -- for myself,

myself to believing that mankind does

I&#39;m resigning
not have an

interest in course, all the majority influence in comes right plastic Jesus

the true of us, of us

realities of being that have had

the book. we&#39;ve come in up

Imean,

of

America,

some kind

of Christian but when have their it

one way down to or their

or another. it, people

And -want to

plastic Gods God is

or whatever-in or isn&#39;t.
Ithink, but

their imagination
DICK: Well,

they think

that&#39;s -- is true,

92 i

I} I
each of us --

11
---

swsvz SCHNEIDER: know, You but

DICK: has our own --

..-4

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Yeah,

but the

DICK: --

belief system. -only, the only this person source in of and all different forms 2,000 its of

STEVE SCHNEIDER: the world years ago traditions and that ever -I mean, the rituals, like

talked about

ca-- Catholicism all the

denominations, no still comes that really And, and it says guess, all Jews were were. They

matter which

one you

look at, source, the

it Eiplg,

down to there&#39;s only one speaks of not only this person

of 2,000

years ago. then,

does it

speak about

what he did

how he&#39;s coming back. of us - if, if you years ago

And that&#39;swhere, I - they were and if the they manner he

taken 2,000

unawares

never expected

him to

come in the

did. If
and you

you go back and you take

start looking and you up "thus go back

those four

gospels
"thus the a

was fulfilled," to the context of

was fulfilled," prophecies, nothing verse there, saw. And

now, 2,000

was fulfilled. context of final days

A verse what the

here,

but not the you find

years old

prophet -of

in the
- later,

the Gentiles

let&#39;s see what kind

- how

we do with information. given to the world.

The ip1g&#39;s here and And, sure,

challenge is

it&#39;s, it&#39;s

D O
in a -- it&#39;s bizarre in worked contrary
DICK:
_.-4

12
its setting, to that but since kind of
I understand

when has

God ever

a setting?
what you&#39;re

Well, Steve,

saying. However, of us do not

you know, understand is,

the thing you know,

the 28th

that I

guess most

that&#39;s quite
and what

apart from

the, the

events of

followed. I
your concern And, of
own beliefs.

mean, we
and that

understand what
you have a lot

you&#39;re saying and

beliefs. have our

these, these of us out here

course, again,
But -STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: --

Well -issue here --

the central

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
me, Dick. You -DICK: Pardon me?

-- share

your beliefs

with

STEVE SCHNEIDER: I, I&#39;d really be DICK: really not interested. I Well, I --

Share your would. know, I

beliefs with

me.

-- you

-- that&#39;s

what we&#39;re

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Maybe if, maybe if one of

Maybe, maybe

I&#39;m wrong. that from

you would

have done

the beginning,
then.

I might

have been out of

here right

DICK:

Well, Steve,

that&#39;s not the issue

we&#39;re here discuss to STEVE SCHNEIDER:

though. We But for

are -me it is though.

{ ~

ilb &#39;!
DICK: -are law enforcement officers.

13
Yeah +I know you are. I

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

realize that.
e.-4

But you&#39;ve to got people, not it is only myself,

remember that religion but in the world life.

for some

there somewhere

it&#39;s, it&#39;s whole their your head the situation me my life

It&#39;s - you can&#39;t separate your, shoulders any I mean,

the giglg.

from your I&#39;m in. is, is

more than

you can

the body&#39;s body, the

It is
DICK: Well,

but for

the book.
I understand that. But how does

that resolve
mean, you can

this issue?
--

That&#39;s, that&#39;s point. the

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Well, well

--

DICK: --

have your

system of You&#39;re right. But

beliefs -there&#39;s

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

a God that v
was a God that

long before
spzke with

that February
this person,

the 28th,
showed him

there

things. And

the proof

for me

and all

those

that have

taken the

time to

listen, which

is,

which is
that you two ears,

wisdom -learn one

all throughout quickly is mouth, and in the

that iplg, wisdom is that it

one thing listening first, is something

I finally gave it a

learned. And fair shake and

process of

listening, I

actually did try to rip it apart overtime. Never was

possible. It&#39;s been a, a day-by-day decision to even

be here,

from six-and-a-half

years ago

to this

very

._

. .

ll!

92

O
time. And,
controvert, so
consistent source

I1
and, in all honesty, I&#39;ve notbeen able
It&#39;s been the most
ever seen in

to

I&#39;ve gone with it.&#39;

of information

that I&#39;ve

my life,
92_-C

the iblg
DICK: Well,

and the

person showing
what you

that.
say. The

Ibelieve

only problem

is

-I, Ilove challenges. I&#39;d

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

give anything

if you

people could

find someone

that

claims to
can -

be a Christian

or claims

to know the giblg,

can real grasp speak 20 of the book.

has four

doctorate degrees, a real memory, a

languages, has

If you

understand what
world looking

I&#39;m saying. Because I&#39;ve gone

for such an individual or

around the
individuals.

DICK: Steve,

I hear

what you&#39;re saying.

But, you

know, that,

that&#39;s subject that a

What, what
debate forever Dick? Dick?

you can

---

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -we can

would happen
and ever. If the dam

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

goes,

there&#39;s good a

little -

a good

earthquake over

here in

this Waco

area, would or some

that have of you

any kind people, do

of a you

bearing with
think?

yourself

DICK: Well,

well, when?

I mean,

you know,

eventually, maybe

that dam

would go
What if

-it&#39;s tonight?

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

0
DICK: well, if

,
it goes tonight, I&#39;ll tell

15
-Good. Good.

you what, I&#39;ll talkyou about theseven seals to from

now until
~.-Q

doomsday. However
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: -you know,

you know,

we can

all, we -can&#39;t. I

can all,

prophesize and STEVE SCHNEIDER:

suggest that No, we

haven&#39;t

EVEI .

DICK: Well,

listen. Let

me, let

me --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -these calamities I mean, just say will come,

Indiscernible!. this. People and eventually at some

I understand.

can suggest they will. point --

I&#39;m surethat somebody

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: --

in time

-Like Nostradamus.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: Yeah.

They were

forecasting Mount

St.

Helens would blow.

these natural

Well, eventually
these disasters,

it did

blow. All

events or

these

calamities, I
right. But

mean, eventually
the, the --

you&#39;re goingto he

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I agree

on --

with you

on

that. I know, in

really do, honesty, the

Dick. But seven seals,

the difference

is, you

no one&#39;s really ever at of

understood -Isaiah 20,

you know,

let&#39;s look clearly, like

21, &#39;2, &#39;3. Give your interpretation

92

4O
that to me if you -I mean, you mumble-jumble -DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK:

,3

16
it&#39;ll be
--

couldn&#39;t --

No. It&#39;s

not that

I couldn&#39;t

Q. >-ed

SCHNEIDER: No,
I&#39;m -SCHNEIDER: Well

you

--

--

I, I

won&#39;t. But,

now listen

--

SCHNEIDER: No,

I know

you won&#39;t.

-- I

might give,

I might

give --

SCHNEIDER: I
-my own --

know you

won&#39;t --

SCHNEIDER: --interpretation

because you
and it may

-not be

the same

-as you r 5 s&#39;r1:vr:

SCHNEIDER: Well,

it wouldn&#39;t

be --

DICK: same -STEVE DICK: STEVE

-- and

it sure

isn&#39;t going to be

the

SCHNEIDER:= Because

I don&#39;t

--

--

as David&#39;s.

SCHNEIDER: No.

It wouldn&#39;t

be,

because you going to

can

read

it all

day long

and you&#39;re not

understand -DICK:

Okay. SCHNEIDER:
I understand.

STEVE
DICK: STEVE

-the

language employed

--

SCHNEIDER: --

in the

first place.

.1 92

I!

Q
that -STEVE SCHNEIDER:
emu

Q 1-,
DICK:&#39; Absolutely. not understand Imay all
A
And if you do belong to a

church and give one

you&#39;ve got 100 members, -- get 100 of the same

you&#39;re notgoing to

answers.

DICK: Absolutely.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

You&#39;re going to have

a --

DICK: That&#39;s my point.

point.

That&#39;s thewhole

STEVE SCHNEIDER: But that&#39;sthe not

indiscernible! -DICK: Theologians
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Iunderstand

-- the
--

body.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -that, Steve,

This is

a body. and -but listen, there are people.

you&#39;re, you&#39;re suggesting that, people -Well, in suggest to that you fact, we us that would like have talked

you know, to talk to people

to other and they of the

David&#39;s interpretation

seven

seals

is certainly

different than
they suggest
to understand

those folks
that, that
what it

that
we will

we&#39;ve talked to and

never ever be able

is that

David

says because others. Now, right and

David&#39;s interpretation that&#39;s not saying that

is different somebody else going to

than is

David&#39;s wrong, but we&#39;re not

debate

&#39;

&#39; 18
that point. What we&#39;rehere to STEVE SCHNEIDER: here -~,.-0

do -I know what you&#39;re

No, no.

if you

-you know that. You know what&#39;s funny? Is

DICK: And STEVE SCHNEIDER: you keep on -DICK: I

-but

we-- well,

listen

--

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Listen

- like

myself
Let me just

--let me

to me.

finish what
would love,
there --

I was saying. I
you and David and,

understand that
and, and

you guys

others out

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I know

what you&#39;re going to

say before

you say
DICK: No.

it, but

go ahead.

I&#39;m saying that -It&#39;s --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK:

-you

guys would

love to

speak about

those kinds

of issues

and -forever.
--

And, and,

you

know, that&#39;s fine. That&#39;s

STEVE SCHNEIDER: be, though, do you,

DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I don&#39;t think it&#39;s going to really don&#39;t.

put -I think --

Dick? I
let me

DICK:

-let

me tell
I think

you this
that

ti-- it&#39;s
--

--

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: --

been a

long time.

O
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- mankind

&#39; 19
wants to see

something spectacular, just as the

television, the, the --

movies, the
to

DICK: Well,

what&#39;s that supposed they want -I think they --

mean?

You mean spectacular means

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

_ DICK: -- to see more bloodshed?

STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- they would like
to see

God shake this whole

world that they

live in.

I think
before

they want to

see Isaiah 24 actually

take place

they acknowledge that there&#39;s who after 6,000 a God

years is going to say okay, folks, I want your attention. It&#39;s time to, to give ear and to give a now verdict, to
if one have --

give a judgment.
it too if there

There&#39;s a that truth

rip it apart. I

has

come that can&#39;tcontroverted. We be

listens to every -trite, to -- if

are saying -- and

you&#39;re, you&#39;re

concerned about how you got into

may get out of
DICK:

this world
all.
of us

and if

you&#39;ve got enough wisdom, you&#39;llconcerned how be you

this play,
Well, I

if at
think all

have those

concerns at

-STEVE DICK:

SCHNEIDER: I

don&#39;t think we all

do.

-- at

some, at some point in our

life.

But maybe

--

STEVE SCHNEIDER: At some point is

right.

Q 2.
DICK: STEVE But --

SCHNEIDER: But

some -for

some of

us

it&#39;s ongoing, l ike myself.

~44

DICK:

Absolutely. It,
can&#39;t quarrel

it certainly
with that, for. I

is,
because am not at

Steve, and

I&#39;mI -

that&#39;s the truth that

you&#39;re looking

this point
are.

in my

life as

concerned about

that as

you

STEVE DICK: STEVE

SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.

And, and

others are

certainly not definitely credit than once a week

--

SCHNEIDER: At that. And that sit I give in a

least you&#39;re you more a pew

an hon--

I like

a lot and, and

of people

- on

get absolutely DICK: Well

nothing other - but, but, still,

And, you

than feelings. for them

know, all of us

that

might be have that,

the ri

lg ht thing. O that -you

have
STEVE

know, that&#39;s our right is a right. have. you on that.

--

SCHNEIDER: -It in this SCHNEIDER: I

DICK: STEVE

country to agree with with you.

I totally,

100 P ercent agree

DICK:

So, I
-

mean, for,

for someone

out

there

or someone

to

-here,

to try

to force

our views,

whether they

be religious -STEVE DICK: SCHNEIDER: We would never --

-- or

other views

--

.!

.21
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, you know that never

would one ever force one&#39;s view, one loves human but
beings so
~~-n

much that when way that there choose to

know, no

you do would ever hear. But,

see something be a possibility of course,

~ and is

the only if people

say, you

like you
I&#39;m

one has

to and

that&#39;sI&#39;m, --

glad it&#39;s that their head

is.

way. But

I&#39;m not happy one that&#39;s basically

would bury what it

in the

sand, and

DICK: Well, the question is what

I do we

you do

know, I I mean,

guess, Steve, what do we do

here, what
resolved. And,

do you

folks do

there, to,
we know --

to get

this thing

you know,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

We believe

we&#39;re led by the

Spirit of February 28th - so

God. We

believe

that --

like before that, we that book.

seen so

the much

incident, before up to us from

have seen

much opened

We&#39;ve heard
much that

lectures on

science. We&#39;ve

heard and

deals with questions men from the up and see

the why

this, why

that, the

deepest come to

have ever

asked. We&#39;ve seen answers are not till they second, third, so apt finally

book. So, run off at

that&#39;s why people this point of time

-now,

we&#39;ve seenthe first,

fourth, fifth
been the clear to

seals opened,
final one, those that are and the

the sixth.
picture has not

The seventh
been that

has

here still.

So, it&#39;s being and

.,
has been developed. And came out all - well, of a that statement it --

5 2.
sudden, of course, now, it&#39;s about

two-and-a-half days
Qw

ago, I

guess. But it was

took place

that statement the first

about at

came out
I&#39;ve seen

the morning
since

before and

thing
least

this incident from God

some kind

of direction

other than

just wait,

wait, wait.
-Imean,

And, I
that
DICK:

mean, other
first time

than those
--

two letters

was the

Okay. What,

what are

you specifically

referring to?
STEVE

SCHNEIDER:

Well, first

of all,

you

know,
came.

there was

- Friday

and Saturday

those letters

DICK: STEVE

Um-hum. SCHNEIDER: And then the morning before

yesterday he
there was

gave me
written some

a piece

of paper,

of which
DeGuerin. And

on

statements to

before he
read

came down to speak

with DeGuerin
and that

himself,
was the

those statements

to DeGuerin,

first it to
Italked

Igot

to hear and

see of it.

And I for

had mentioned a little bit.

some of the
to, to

negotiators today
Wayne and John-5 and

Rick. But,

anyway, in
that with

the process
them,
about how

Iwent
all

through
of a

a little

bit
now

of

sudden he&#39;s

supposed to
or in a written

publish the
form.

seven seals in

manuscript form

Q Q
DICK: Well, I, Ithink one of the questions

..
you know, seven the
there, and in time all of to go a ahead down to you folks out this point put some,

was asked, course, is of that,

seals are
s.-1

not new

sudden he&#39;s waited till and, and, you know,

some of

his thoughts

on paper.
nothing more

You know, frankly, my,

than a stalling

my belief

is this
--

is

technique.
Oh -okay --

Imean

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: --

I,

Ibelieve
-- okay,
that

that -okay --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Ibelieve

that --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Dick? Can

Ireact

to

that?

DICK: Certainly. STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. I&#39;ll tell you the

way these stalling tactic you what pull the Sir, now

people are,

including myself. of that

If you

want a tell

or something be by

nature, I&#39;ll just put Icould that -give a

I would cord right listen to

nature. I&#39;d

off the~wall. me. And

crap. people

that&#39;s the way these

are. when
seen things unfold stalling, what big --

we believe

in God,

we look and see and we&#39;ve

you think you&#39;re you can get 10 the entire go get of those, building. the if

and so that tank get the

forth. If just did,

you can

Abrams. Go

you&#39;d like, and run

DICK: We--

right through

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

You will see

people --

and

9 0
I&#39;d come screaming out and all the rest. If you think

=4
and I&#39;m -not
remember, Steve Listen to -me. Dick? --

we&#39;re stalling, what you feel or you knowthat do you

need to
v.--0.4

do, Dick,
DICK: Well,

STEVE SCHNEIDER: &#39; DICK: -- we to-- we

talked about
Dick?

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -that before.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: We

I know. to do that.

don&#39;t want

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Dick, Dick.

And it&#39;s not

changed. You&#39;re going to of these people are,

DICK: Well,
have --

get to

see what

the substance out of.

what they&#39;re really made

I don&#39;t doubt that

they&#39;re may

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I, I&#39;m, I&#39;m telling

you

something. I&#39;m, stalling business. in God

and --

I&#39;m going to If, if waiting on

say, about you -if we

this whole did not believe right out

and were

him, I&#39;djust come

DICK: Steve, STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I don&#39;t --. -- face it.

DICK: I

don&#39;t take indiscernible! -I won&#39;tsay to you, hey,

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

you&#39;re going to -before --

it&#39;llbe a

cold day
and tell

in hell
you. But that&#39;s

I&#39;ll come right out

:,

Q0
-- I&#39;m being honest
is. DICK: I don&#39;t doubt --

=5
with you. That&#39;s not way the it

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
92.--0

People --

DICK: -have a great --

that you

believe in

God, that

you

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK:" -belief in

These people
God.

--

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

No, no,

but, Dick,

these

people do stalling tactic,

will. But

expect to

come out. well, that

And if -- you

you think

it&#39;s a what you

know, think
not so.

I&#39;m telling

you that is

DICK: Let know, all quarrel with is watching your -of you

me ask you something,

Steve. You or

-- no--

nobody&#39;s goingto question in God. If this

your belief out for

same God is, not let in his -- put hands --

you and that --

others, why your future

you know,

STEVE SCHNEIDER:, That -DICK: -and, and come -But, Dick,

and -and -don&#39;t you

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
unders--

DICK: You&#39;re saying you&#39;ll particular point in time. STEVE SCHNEIDER:

do that at,

at

I&#39;m saying that God&#39;s

already -this is his

we&#39;ve alreadyput ourselves

will. Why do you think he&#39;s

in his

hands and
when

allowed,

Q Q
you read the stories of the iplg from with his Genesis to so-called Revelation, all that he&#39;sallowed

2.
a minority.
we are -or

people? They&#39;ve always been

Mg:

And I&#39;m not

that we&#39;re

even saying trying to On the

that makes create a -in

- that -- for at all.

ourselves martyrdom. I want life. I want

contrary, not

quality life
better one

here and
that doesn&#39;t

now and going right

end. But at the

on into
same time,

a
of

course, there world. and if

is a way it&#39;s going

to get to be

out some like in

truth to the days

the of

Noah, only
chose to

eight people
hear that truth

out of
for

billions
that day.

listened or
It doesn&#39;t look

good ever

with mankind
cities of of that.

in the

days of

Sodom and
Three people the Exodus

Gomorrah. Five walked out

the plane. days of

In the

experience,

Caleb and

Joshua out

of over

two to

three

million people
wrong with mankind? their religious mouth religion,
rest is -- of

made it

into the
They want

promised land.
it their They want way. They to, to

What is
want -b--&#39; The

social clubs. maybe one

the time

hour out

of the week.
never

is their

own. It&#39;s

me,

I&#39;m either 100 percent

Hawaii to live for

into something

or I&#39;m back into

and nobody else,

Steve Schneider

nobody. It&#39;ll this world,

be just

for me,

what I

can get

out of

like everybody

else. Eat,

drink, and

sleep, for

tomorrow we die. That&#39;s attitude. the

Q0
DICK: Well, it certainly is --

=1
for a lot of people. For me, if there is it&#39;s one extreme or a God and that iglg

STEVE SCHNEIDER: for me I&#39;m But -DICK:

92--an

STEVE SCHNEIDER: the other. Either -

is true, come out

well, then and you

here can do

Iam. with, with

But if

it&#39;s not, I&#39;ll you want.

me what

And Iam
up on

anyway. But

I&#39;m talking about either

totally. it why do -- this

giving

this whole

religious thing why is

DICK: Well, do one or the other? I

you have isn&#39;t -that&#39;s

to

mean, why

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Well, because

indiscernible! DICK: an either/or

A --V
Because there&#39;s a for

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

me, Dick, things about least listen you do

and I,

you&#39;re -really, I a person. at least I,

like Imean, I really

a lot you do think at

of

yourself as enough to

understand where
for me,

I&#39;m coming from.

the time

Ireally

do.

But because

because of

I&#39;ve taken to

listen, there a weight.

is

a weight Ilook

of evidence at the in fact

there. There the

is

And when

testimony of after all in other

did not.

prophecies and they do

see that

these years religions

You

harmonize, which

when Iwas

before, different

denominations, they

know, Christians

will go

and say

well, the

gible

QO
harmonizes. But
I don&#39;t care to
v-~~i

E1

#&#39; &#39;

28

when you

really put

them to the

test,

what denomination, none What Joel of them

they can&#39;t prove that can. None of these show that

you. There

scholars can.

saw, what

Amos saw,

in light

of -DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

you can&#39;t prove it.

Yes, Ican.

You -It&#39;s simple.

But you&#39;re going not

opportunity on that, you their thoughts there to hear know --

to, like

you say, give

You, you&#39;re an FBI system or is not

me an
agent their, what you&#39;re

the phone.

someone&#39;s belief and spiritual realms

in the

first place.
true. I understand.

DICK: That&#39;s

STEVE SCHNEIDER: I&#39;ve never -- the listened to only one

Imean that has

- so,

obviously,

ever really Rick, Ithink it&#39;s

any degree

has been

Rick-2, and that, that time or

I think it maybe he

was only might here else.

because of something to Imean,

courtesy do with I

maybe something

you know,

mean, obviously, wondering about myself.

DICK: Excuse

he&#39;s going to have But -me.

motives

that I&#39;m

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

at the,

but

at the

same

time, we
could only

here --

oh, God,

if I

could only

ma-if

have hours

to develop

without interruption,

Ithink

you&#39;d totally see and

you&#39;d have -you

would

.,-92_ _

Q! "&#39;
start wondering.
book 1:18, says
a-an

29
the God of that,
that, as together, sayeth the way we have

I believe

of that
in Isaiah your been

is

a rational, come, let Imean one. If,

reasonable God us reason this is

God. So, from day

-- and if you David and

David. That --

would have Clint, Clint

heard the obviously did

reason or --

conversation of
not want to hear

wasn&#39;t his

DICK: Well

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: But was it,

-- motive was it
Because he

for calling. ---

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: Now,

listen --

h srsvn

scnnsxosa: -DICK: Now, listen. Let

he&#39;d him questions. ask

me, let me

respond -STEVE SCHNEIDER: Go ahead.

DICK: --

to that.

Give me

a chance.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Well,

Istood

here and

I&#39;d

see David here, and

and explain
of a sudden

starting -he would

and show.
he would --

let me start to
And at
it was

just say,

Iwas

right to clarify
all
be

read something
the same
cut off

time, then
and he would

quiet for it was

quite a obvious that it all,

period -for -that he --

some periods to me, from what

of time. Icould

So,

deduce from or see

really did

not want

to hear

this developed

I
DICK: Well --

30
questions.
ilg -I -From the

STEVE SCHNEIDER: - his

DICK: I, STEVE SCHNEIDER:
92~-v4

4 DICK:
here.

You know,

Iwasn&#39;there.

Iwas

not

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Iwas

though.

DICK: But very strong perhaps

Ido

know Clint, of his what David

Well, David

and Clint own, and has to

ans--

has got

religious convictions he doesn&#39;t agree with

say.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: There&#39;s STEVE SCHNEIDER: there is.

me the

room for But Da-

that, isn&#39;t yeah --

there? oh, sure

But David
seals. And

then asked
he told

him well,
David he knew

then you
them. Well,

show

if he

knew them,

why didn&#39;the express

he may well know
-- them

and show
--

--

DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:=

to Da-

DICK: And

I--

again,

Idon&#39;t know what

he

knows about
of written

the seals.
word on

I,

Ido

know that
much of

there&#39;s a lot

the seals,

which doesn&#39;t

have anything

to do

with what

David Koresh

says --

they

represent. And,

so, that&#39;s,that&#39;s -Well, now, what --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: --

an argument

that ---

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

- interested

9 Q
DICK: we don&#39;tneed to enter into,

31
V
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, but, Dick, if you want

because -

~..-1

me -get any am right

I&#39;ll comeright out clothes or now if

tonight, right will just

now.

Iwon&#39;t as I

anything. I this man

come out about the the giplg. all

knows something to be

seals and Maybe he

means -

it&#39;s clearly for me does. If

I, Iwas

seen in

he does,
on the

why didn&#39;t he -by

him for

phone with

one or

two

minutes there,
phone, and

making small
Icould tell he

talk until

David got
an

to the

didn&#39;t have a -

appreciation -That was

it was

not me

he wanted

to talk

with.
he was

obvious. Whatever

kind of

a Christian

or is

and what

his beliefs with anyone the Book

are, else. A

Iguess

they&#39;re not

worth sharing according to

that, that spreading those
life. That

true Christian, gospels is

time to might have eternal
this world.

of Acts

and the
their total

ones

- one

that gives beliefs

that others
was not

-Christ

interested in

The apostles,

those that

they reached,

none of

them

were. But the days rituals and,

as, as - you

this of Noah

we&#39;re living where all lot of

said

in a

generation like is are forms

in and

you have

and a

mouth service.
it would be. So, very things

But that&#39;s
we&#39;re, we&#39;re that they

the prophet

know, we&#39;re fulfilling the

foresaw in

the final

days. People

are into

things,

O0
material things.
what they can get DICK: Well,
~~-:6

3.
They&#39;re into the here
out from it point for under the looks to me -sun. like -let me,

and the

now,

let me

address that

just
Sure.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: --

a second.

You know,

Ikeep

hearing

these material
don&#39;t meanyou,

things
Imean

you have
the --

no interest

-- and

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

No, no

--

DICK: -STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK:

But, yet, you know,

collective you. Okay. the collective

boats. Isee,

Imean
Isee

you out
Isee,

there.
you

know, little things, which know, material

four-wheel buggies most of things, at STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: Oh, yes, you us would least of Did

and those accept them

kinds of to be, you there.

some interest Isay material things?

certainly did.

You had

no --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -exactly what you interest in said. And

Okay. things material that&#39;s just Ireally obviously -don&#39;t. is

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -not true.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: here, but you -should Itell

No, we&#39;vegot you why

these things

they&#39;re here?

as

DICK:

Well, go

ahead.

STEVE scrmmonm
new people come and so forth

They&#39;re herebecause when

-of course, they need --

you know,
--qd

a lot

of people as work, the giplg

need recreation. where you&#39;re shows. These an opportunity

where they exercise. I for hours

And we see actually

recreation usually involv- like those, until

where they program,

things are - it&#39;s like

have a,

for

they have
can get where we into -

a total

get some good to

mean, it&#39;s and

obviously not indiscernible!.

sit there

DICK: You
your --

don&#39;t get lot a

of exercise

riding

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -Harley, do

Exercise in you?
Huh?

my --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

- DICK: the Harley,

You don&#39;tget do you?

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

a lot

of exercise

riding

C
In the -the truth of the

matter is,

they have

ra-- if

you look

at the

miles on
not

the speedometer, many at all.

you&#39;re going to see

that there&#39;s

DICK: Well,

I understand.

But, you

know,

years ago, like to

it was spend some

my understanding, time on that Harley,

you used to you and

loJudy

both didn&#39;t kind

of enjoyed

that, isn&#39;t --

I 34 STEVE

SCHNEIDER:

well, no,

I never

had a

Harley. Well
DICK: STEVE ~...-1 DICK: STEVE

indiscernible! -Well, I saw your bike.

SCHNEIDER: Huh? Your bike.

SCHNEIDER: Well, I got for like

yeah, mine $1,100.

the case
it was --

was a,

used Magna

that
DICK: STEVE DICK:

Well, whatever
SCHNEIDER: And

was, you

--

-- apparently

at one

time enjoyed

that. STEVE

SCHNEIDER: -was a little

little period
bit of time where

of time
we did

or

-- yeah.

There

use it,

but at

the same be condemned No. I,

time, you for any

know, and of that.

I --

no, no

one&#39;s ever to
DICK:

I&#39;m notsuggesting that

at

all. I&#39;m

just -STEVE DICK:

SCHNEIDER:, I&#39;m sorry --- saying all of us have some interest

in things

material -STEVE DICK: STEVE

SCHNEIDER:
-- to

Well, yeah.

a degree.
is -but -which is

SCHNEIDER: Which

fine. But

at the

same time,

the day

comes where to the

it&#39;s not or

there&#39;s some information that&#39;s

world and it&#39;s either true or

being offered
it&#39;sthere or

/S

-5

..

as
that the prophets talk about. And

it&#39;s the very thing

I, I

think that

if you

heard for clear strong

a half-hour

to even

an I

hour you&#39;d see a very

really believe
0-bl

connection there.

you would. DICK: Well, I think I have heard that for,

you know,
remember, I with you

what -was one --

early on
of the

in this

thing. As
that talked

you

early people

srzvz SCHNEIDER:

Right.

DICK: -

at some

length, both

you and

David.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Dick, we&#39;re still stuck

because we
thing. We

do believe
do believe

in it
in it.

though. That&#39;s the whole

DICK: Let,
we&#39;re stuck. Okay?

let me

offer to

you why

I think

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Okay.

DICK: I

have absolutely

no quarrel

with your

religious convictions.
talking about me

Nobody does.

But I&#39;m just

specifically -Right. Right.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: those thoughts,

those thoughts.

right now. and I,

I have

You are

welcome to having

all

I can

appreciate your
set of,

my own

of thoughts

as

it relates to religion and, andother things. But

that&#39;s all well and a collateral issue. And, good. However, of course, that is, my belief you know, is that

K" 5
this has

&#39;
to get -we have to move on

as
in this issue.

You have those opportunities,

length -.._-es

we&#39;ve talked to them at

at length, to, to witness -But, see, that&#39;s where --

we&#39;ve talked about them pass the word, to

preach, to

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: -

to do

those kinds
that&#39;s

of things.
where you don&#39;t

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

understand this - the given as people that it is

group, because have come has come from

it&#39;s always here to a man hear the that has

been direct Bible had Or, on

supernatural revelations, the other

divine revelations. he&#39;s -- you know,

hand, he&#39;s deluded or

sniffing birchbark something. the,the truth of or But

the matter concise and
and we&#39;ve

is for

us he

has been with

very consistent

and

clear and
not found

all that

he&#39;s presented,
On

fault with

that information.

the contrary,

it&#39;s been clear and

it&#39;s been something

that we
the incident.

have taken

to heart and

lived by,

even before

DICK: But

we won&#39;t quarrel with

No, but --

that.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: Nobody

quarrels with

that.

STEVE SCENEIDER: coming out.

I

-- you&#39;retalking about that that God yet. That has not is the I would

the

But it&#39;s not him that we are

for

shown to whole thing.

to leave

I mean,

for my

own reasoning,

say

.8 o
yes to the same point. I
50%

..
I, like from do. But,
reason. I to know his

what you&#39;re saying, Dick. way you do, especially

you, see

it

a carnal at the
was here will and

vantage same
because I want

positively, clearly
not here know God. his for that I want

time, I&#39;m
I want to

to do

will. And

right now
in the being that issues There are
the

I believe process, I here longer

that, can see

that&#39;s good

what we&#39;re doing. And, that has three days. by Americans

pro and

come out I have

of our seen

than, say,

have been -- you

issues

raised --

all over.
at least

know, the
have been

con. But

developed

that can

be looked

at very

openly and

honestly, both
political. And

in the religious
I -so, I

bent and
see that it&#39;s, a lot

also
it&#39;s healthy. maybe

There&#39;s been a, there&#39;s been not as much as there could

of dialogue, but, still, that to

have been, and, and

there&#39;s been a reaction

I don&#39;t see

be

unhealthy. I would like like to to get into

know that see us into it and

you&#39;ve gotjob a the system. get done with it

to do

and you

Carnally, I&#39;d myself. But, here for

and I believe

again, I&#39;mnot here,

other reason but to

nor did
know the iblg,

I ever come

any
that

God does

deal directly been to

with him. this point

what it is

So, that&#39;s why my of time

that God

decision has
hear or
know --

to

stay until
to

know exactly

wants him

0 38
DICK: Well, laws of man, do you not, you still have to deal with the Steve? &#39;
I do. I do. But God I

srsvs scamaroaa:

fear first
N-an

though, Dick.
DICK: Well, I&#39;m --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: Nobody would

Way beyond

man.

not suggesting

you shouldn&#39;t.

suggest that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that&#39;s the reason

I&#39;ve not come out.

no excuses thing is I have. the reason

That is

the only

reason. There&#39;s
excuse. The God I only believe

I don&#39;t have an is is because that

has showed
thereby. And

him things
the very

that has
things that to controvert.

showed me things
he has So, for with the program. don&#39;t have shown me, that

I&#39;ve never been able reason I keep on

moving along

DICK: That&#39;s

fine. You

know, you

to controvert

anything. Nobody
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

has to
Yes, but

do that.
that&#39;s what I&#39;m

saying.
DICK: What --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

But, but

that God

is saying

telling
point.

us not

to go

out right

now. That&#39;s the

DICK: I&#39;ll

tell you.

Let, let The latest

me just thing that

-that

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

A S
God has
seven seals.

9292
said is to, to publish or
DICK: And then to

O1
to write
&#39; edit those

O 39
out those
seven seals --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
s~d then.

Yes. To

get out

of here

DICK: --

and those

kind of

things. Well,

have not

heard even

anybody say

that. I

heard -you know, know,

STEVE SCHNEIDER: that&#39;s what it was -- I

Really? Well, right, you

read it

directly off

the page.
DICK: Okay.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: be honest tell me know, he with you. ahead of just handed DICK: Well,
throw a little --

And I

was quite

surp-- I&#39;ll he didn&#39;t

Iwas

surprised because

time that&#39;s what was me the Ican paper. see. Let,

happening. You

let me

just

STEVE SCHNEIDER!All right.

DICK: I you&#39;re done -- or that doesn&#39;t can understand when he&#39;s done he tomorrow, next
That&#39;s --

when you will come week

say when out. But -on

say today,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

you&#39;re correct

that.

DICK: --

next month,

next year. You&#39;re right.

that&#39;s not an answer. I

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: So, I mean,

{D

Q .
mean, that&#39;snot
answer and --

E
an acceptable answer. It may be an

40
to give. it&#39;s

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Oh, I

- it

will.

DICK:
~..n

-the

only one

you plan

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
not acceptable to yourselves.

Like you

say, maybe

DICK: is, is God

Well,

let me

say this.

Now, what

-go

-God&#39;s request or write these things down

God&#39;s wish that is he and publish them and

ahead and

give a copy to, to

these other
to come out? Or

Dick DeGuerin and two copies to

and then
just saying

two fellows,
is he

he&#39;s sayingit&#39;s time

that --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -after

That&#39;s what I&#39;m understand. that point -what I&#39;ve

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
understood.

No. That&#39;s

DICK:

Well, but,

but --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:,
what I&#39;ve understood.

Just

-what

you asked

is

DICK:
That&#39;s what everybody

Well, what&#39;s
--

the time-frame,

though?

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -asks.

I don&#39;t know. And, see This -Idon&#39;t know.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

-DICK: this, this is

-- nobody what we&#39;ve

knows that. been talking

And, Steve, about for umpteen

if

:1 92 . .92
days now, the time-frame, the time-frame.

. 41

God will

tell you
come out?
92---II

to come out. iwhen is God going to tell you to

You&#39;re going to wait STEVE SCHNEIDER: five -would one know -How, how

DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

that&#39;s our question.

I mean - but it&#39;s always

also worked -one

that way

with

the iplg

being opened at some

up to

is looking

at issues

or is looking

92 92 7

specific topic, and it doesn&#39;timmediately. One come

has to wait. And all of a sudden, bingo, there&#39;s all

this light. awesome study.

He opens

up some kind

of a,

a fantastic, for

I&#39;ve been with him, And from information he

now remember,

six-anda-half years. I met him, the

the, the has now

beginning that is a thousandfold

over those
was so I tested going to down with
and ultimately

beginning days

of my meeting
that time

with him,
even. I world,

which
mean, by I sat

beyond the and tried

scholars of by travelling a number

around the of universities.

professors of

numerous, numerous
rabbis. And I

ministers and
mean, he

priests and,
was so _

beyond. It&#39;s like taking that&#39;s four or five that has 10 doctorate

someone out and, and

of a

sandbox a guy of a

years old

run into that much

degrees. It&#39;s

difference, apart
scholars with

from -I
degrees. If

don&#39;t careif they&#39;re .

that --

DICK: Yeah,

but nobody

under-

let&#39;s face

*<;_

paL.

O
it. Nobody
Now --

Q
say.

und
erstands what that man has to

92~-at

.STEVE oxcx:
SCHNEIDER: I

do.

Well, you,

you

--

STEVE DICK: STEVE

SCHNEIDER: I,

I think

you --

-- you&#39;re exception an
SCHNEIDER: No,
listened, but

then.
you would

no. Dick,

yourself if obviously --

you

you haven&#39;t chosen,

DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: have come out o STEVE DICK:

Well, listen
SCHNEIDER: --

-to listen.

Let me

tell you

something. I

have --

SCHNEIDER: Okay.

-- talked
f that

to a number of people that

compound. Okay?

SCHNEIDER: Okay.

when Iwasn&#39;t here, I

was dealing

with

some of has to And they say, they

can follow

those p say, som will a belie

what

eople, none
e of ll say ve what he has

of whom

understand what
there for he has but none

he
years. to

whom have that they he has to say.

been in

like what to say,

of them

STEVE SCHNEIDER: they can&#39;t defi

the Lamb.

They can,

but they

can&#39;t,

nitely repeat
say on--

it.
what --

It sa--

it says

only

It&#39;s

you can&#39;t even look fi-- I&#39;ll have --

thereon, it

states in

that chapter

=:;, ~*1w

,.
I&#39;llyou tell of it. the truth. I could make a lot of me of sense because I
At

43
they can. come out,

You&#39;d have a much

myself -- a lot of a little

easier time
better than

can express the same

mi

these people

that have

like you

can mention

like, say, that have

Brad or

Kevin, these out of

are hard-core the world

type guys and, and

come directly

with no

real religious

influences

whatsoever. They&#39;ve communicators, of never been

course. So,
they, they heard. It&#39;s, for them the ability

by going
know what

to certain

individuals, you

know,

they&#39;ve seen and what clear to

they&#39;ve them. But has and to

it&#39;s very logical and a message that only

to repeat under all

David really open up

circumstances to

answer any
he was tape from -it&#39;s very

and all

kinds of
him, if to it.

questions, like
you&#39;ve got that Because I think you

Clint, when
a, a

dealing with that, listen

think they&#39;re would

logical and

clear. I

understand what
I&#39;m serious.

he is saying

when he

is speaking.

I,

DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Let me
Sure.

ask you

this.

DICK: terms of the seals

why do

Biblical scholars with some Well, I

differ in of the --

then, i--

STEVE SCHNEIDER: do because I haven&#39;t heard any DICK: Well, I can

don&#39;t knowhow they both came --

since we tell you.

I&#39;ve talked to

%&#39;l&#39; 4|,
a couple of them personally and srzvn scnnzxnsn: DICK: -e.-at

Q, .
1

0
--

44
have they said?

they differ

Well, what

from what he

has to say.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: I&#39;d likeknow what to

they&#39;ve said. Idon&#39;t the foggiest -have
DICK: well, I mean, that&#39;s not --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: -idea.

DICK: Again, I, I&#39;m here to repeat what not

they said. We just have done some work this and, on

and, of course, early --

" STEVE
know, if you could

SCHNEIDER: Has it been

-there --

very different

from what you&#39;ve heard? because Imean, Idon&#39;t -- you

DICK: Well, difference in

substance, certainly.
those things. It&#39;s --

But, the fact of

the matter is

we&#39;re not to get anything done bydiscussing going

STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is --

DICK: --

it&#39;s an impact ---

STEVE SCHNEIDER: This is

DICK: --

on what, what needs

-I

to be done.
know --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, Dick

DICK: Steve.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: I understand.

We&#39;re,

we&#39;re, we&#39;re stuck becauseyou&#39;re in vein and we&#39;re one

in another. This is a religious thing. We&#39;re, we&#39;re

-.--r

Q.
here because of the Eiplg, because we believe
DICK: It&#39;s religious a It&#39;sreligious thing a
~._-1

45
in God -Steve. thing in part, in part, and we&#39;re not

quarrelling with

that part.

However --

STEVE SCHNEIDER: but -No, I

DICK: -however -let
Yes.

mean, you -me --

me, let

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: -go ahead.

continue, please.
Okay. p has happened here is

And then you can

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: What

there

have

been four
there, the,

Federal agents killed.

the exact number --

There have

been many
folks inside

Federal agents wounded. There have been

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, why
DICK: -we&#39;re not sure --

is it

that

the --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:four --

-why

do you

mention the four

three --

agents first when they

in fact

killed

DICK: Okay.

I&#39;ll mention your -in here what has

92

STEVE SCHNEIDER: people -DICK: I&#39;m summarizing just

happened. Okay?

first.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: no. No,

I, I

know that --

DICK: when you

it.

say the indiscernible! of

,_*__~_ W

_ -/

~ "_-IIIIII

,-

STEVE SCHNEIDER: government, which has gotten

..-Q

Because of this powerful so out of -damn out of

hand, so ofhand that out it&#39;s not the people in_

control anymore, but it&#39;s, it&#39;s powerful men in

positions that

should have never been, that the

Con-out

Constitution guaranteed that that would not take place.

We can&#39;t can&#39;t vote someone like yourself -I even
of that powerful office.

DICK: Now,

hold it.

I&#39;m, I&#39;m not in

powerful office.

I do

a job

-no. No, no.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: No, no,

DICK: Okay?

STEVE SCHNEIDER: I&#39;m talking about the

IRS

-the

I-- all

these seragencies

that are

that

come directly out from the executive and judicial

branches. We,we the people of America don&#39;tany have

access to, to reprimanding these groups. The ATP is

known by those Americans are awake and that watchdogs.

They&#39;ve abused the rights and the
mean, I, I was aware of that before

freedoms of many. I
this, but I never

still_knew that much about them, but I knew they were definitely abusive and theygot awaywith their, their
atrocities, I mean, long before this. So, whenthis took place, it didn&#39;t surprise me. It surprised me

that they

went sofar as indiscriminately shotat any

place anywhere in the building and it didn&#39;t matter who

i: |__.

Q .7
And, I mean, when they killed a woman

was where.

laying in
bed just
Q-~-U

bed and they killed

getting out of bed

another guy beside his

- and you will
I gave

get to
their

see

that. These
names. I

people are
wanted to

already dead.
from the

give them

beginning, but

few people

thought it

wasn&#39;t rightor good

at that

time. It

was my idea. I

wanted to plaster it
dead inside
close friend

to the

press immediately,
the -one of them

five people
a close,

here. And
of mine from
in his

Hawaii who life, never -he

never hurt did a

a fly,

never had guy ne--

a record

thing. The humble guy. of people

man, he

always the

was a very

He, he&#39;s always had

I mean -- and

best intentions

everywhere.
four Federal

then you&#39;retalking about

agents. Well,
and their

cry and

I, I

mourn for
who did

them too.
what here?

And,

families. But

I didn&#39;t see no

sheriff. I

didn&#39;t hear any, of

anybody coming to the

had any a

door and knocking and,

and saying they

whole mob of hundreds of guys started running

door with people loud. I this guy did. You guns pointed and they started firing. Perry Jones dropped dead, for crying mean, I was down the hallway.
He was

to the
And out
in the

hallway. He

got it

immediately. Hello,

Dick? He

gThe

got it

imme- who shot who here, Dick? says that

guy didn&#39;t no gun on him. None of these people have

-- there&#39;s -Troy we ambushed

wlA&#39; &#39; these -the, the, the people out here. Women were

48
the trucks earth they
that out.

looking out in. They

..-ed

the window were wondering

going on.

to see

come driving were and

Let God

what on

what was

You&#39;ll find

bring it

out into
DICK: And

his court.
that&#39;s what

And if

I&#39;m going --

we said.

STEVE SCHNEIDER: mean, I&#39;mserious, Dick. DICK: Steve,

along? &#39; STEVE SCHNEIDER:

-- to

be reprimanded -

have we

not said

that all

But, no.

I was

here on

the

press conferences

and what

you say

-- you

talk about

four dead

agents. what

about these
thing, Dick. I have never ever

people who

- they

weren&#39;t doing a damn DICK: Steve,

brought this

subject up inside

without mentioning

the people say one

that are time ---

there. Never.

You cannot
=But what
didn&#39;t --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -when I

do you

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

-- think

about

an agency

like that,
have a

though? I
chance. DICK: What

mean, these people

didn&#39;t even

I --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

What -

wait, wait

minute. Can

I ask

you something?

DICK: Certainly.

0
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And let&#39;s -- it doesn&#39;t

49
in your home and
you know, kind of had some

even have to be
some other
-.--.4

ATE/FBI. Say

you were
that --

agency of

the Government say, say the INS

you&#39;re theFBI. _But

power as a police
come to a gun your door

force or
and start

something and,
shooting, and and try

and they
you did it out,

just
have

somewhere, would

you go

to get

hoping that as

a last

resort --

you didn&#39;t want to

use

it, but,
your wife

in case you did,

and your DICK: Well,

would you defend yourself,

would be a question. left? How

children, whoever let me ask you

was it

that all

-- that

many of the folks there with guns at

inside there the time ATE

happened to

be standing

came up the, up

the roadway?

How did I have

that happen? in fact, I

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

no --

don&#39;t know anything th-I don&#39;t know that for a

a-- I&#39;ll honest with you. be

fact at
let me

all. That,
ask you this.

that&#39;s --

DICK: Well,

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
it.

- the

first I&#39;ve

heard of

DICK: You

-- do

you regularly

carry guns

around while walk you inside that building?

STEVE SCHNEIDER: Never. Never ever --

DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: never.

l
then, that

~
bullets came out

DICK: How

is it,

J .0
through the they were d-- through pulling up the sides or after - shortly
That never STEVE SCHNEIDER:
.~-vi

.0
walls just after
happened.

of the

as

--

DICK: Well,

did -- indiscernible! was there return

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: Were

there weap--

fire from

you folks
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

inside?
I know that there
W38 .

DICK: Okay.

Certainly you

know that

there

was. What
weapons, does

does that
it not?

indicate? It

indicates people

had

STEVE SCHNEIDER: place.

There are

weapons

in

this

DICK: All

right.
we never had said
that

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

there wasn&#39;t,

Dick. what I&#39;msaying, then,

then

DICK: What,

obviously you time because

weapons.

knew the you --

ATP was coming at

some point in
with

people were

waiting there

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

They were

--

DICK: Are up and Is that got their what happened?

you suggesting ATF hit

to--

that they

ran porch?

weapons once

the front

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

You&#39;re going to get

to see
I want to

the whole

report. In

fact,

I-

you know,

I,

J &#39;4
tell it advised -way more
92~-1

.1
but I&#39;vebeen I&#39;ve said
the

to you

in detail not should. But

right now, in fact,

you -than I

you know,

I don&#39;t care, because

truth is
well, you

the truth.
know, I

I&#39;m trying tell to

understand all that, but,

these attorneys
still, the

truth will
happens to

prevail whether I do or not or whatever

me.
DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -let&#39;s talk

.
let&#39;s -I -about the truth.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Dick,

Iknow

for

a fact

where Iwas

and what happened

DICK: Okay. STEVE SCHNEIDER:

and --

You know.

And I,

I&#39;ll --

I&#39;ve told you before, where the

gunshot from

Isaw first things

nothing. I Iheard

was in

a place

fir-- the

was, was
is

the outside.

That is

true. That

positively true.
DICK: How were coming from?

And then

after -tell where the gunshots

could you

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I was right down

at the

--

I&#39;m, I&#39;m fe-- I know, by where

was feet

away. You&#39;ll get to of the building, ultimately, very position.

see, you like I

the diagram

Iwas

standing, the it was I mean,

I mean,

mean, all -the truth.

a shocker, I did

Dick. I&#39;m telling you about somebody

hear something

J
coming, but I never
at a

Q... 52
-- I thought it would be
of that

like
nature.

someone knocking Seriously.

s-ad

door, something

DICK:

Well,

what were

people doing

then?

waiting? If to just

the knock shoot people?

didn&#39;t come then they I mean,

te--

were going

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Never. There

-- you&#39;re

going to

find out
DICK: Okay.

there was
Steve,

no plan.
listen --

There wasn&#39;t --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Nothing was

indiscernible! -DICK: People had to

be standing -- say, As you there with

fire. Is

there with if,

weapons to

return fire.

I, I

for instance, are suggesting. weapons

that not

if ATP

did fire

first. Okay? be standing

to return

Then people
waiting in, In other

had to
in order

true?

words, you

didn&#39;t run up and

get guns

out of
bedroom.

the arms

room up

there in

Da--

near David&#39;s

The, the

people already

had the

guns down there.

one, see,

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

Well, number

there&#39;s some things you&#39;re going to

learn

that I

--

it&#39;s --I -your information

you know

it seems

like you&#39;ve information, got it&#39;s not But, so.

but anyway,

is inval--

I don&#39;t want --

DICK:
that.

Well, straighten

me out,

then, on

*
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I&#39;d better not law,
..-0

&#39; 53
do it

now. Because if I&#39;m going to come out into a court of

which I&#39;ve got to do, I&#39;d better save that not that for true? I&#39;d the like courtroom. Isn&#39;t that, isn&#39;t

to tell
you only told me that anyway.

you the

details right
Ican where, where

now, but
tell you -- but

I,

Ican

tell
have

my witness. when and

what people

you&#39;ll get to hear

DICK: I&#39;m sure we

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

will, and
But --

that&#39;s what --

DICK: --

we suggested -- but

-you will find out --

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

DICK: --

that you
I,

come out
Ihope

and tell
that the first

us.
ATF shot,

STEVE SCHNEIDER: themselves did take a

video even

before the

because that&#39;ll exonerate us.

that the later after start looking vehicles on press were here. I,

It will.
Idid

And Ihope
see cars there finally course,

everything settled. out the that road window, in front

when Isaw of the going to both for

Idid

two, of

complex. And be a lot of press

I&#39;m, I&#39;m hoping that got pictures. a lot

that there&#39;s of videotape,

sound and

DICK: Well,

certainly there&#39;s

some of

that.

But I&#39;m going to

you can

tell you

the truth,

the press

is, as
I&#39;m

-- you&#39;ve heard these

press conferences,

Ki
sure, haven&#39;t you, the last few days? some of it. You STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, y--

54
is a lot of times I&#39;ve either
I, I&#39;ve --

know, what&#39;s happened

e.-an

been late.

DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- missed like a lot of the

beginnings, so

I&#39;ve not heard everything.

it&#39;s very, it&#39;s very clear,

DICK: Well,

listening these press to conferences -I&#39;ve,not I&#39;ve

been there watch them. in person, but I do listen to them the interest and I in this do It&#39;s very clear that

matter
are fed

is waning.
up --

I mean,

it absolutely

is. People

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -with this.

I&#39;m s--

STEVE SCHNEIDER: wouldn&#39;t be surprised. DICK: They

I&#39;m sure.

I am

s-- I,

are completely Rick sic!,

fed up

with this.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I don&#39;t doubt

it. But, place was

humanity. It

see, my, never for

my decision any reason

to be of, of

here

in the

first for
God

the world,
in this

was first because

I believe

that I

believe spoke

through all

the prophets

about

this very

-DICK: Steve,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:

I
I don&#39;t doubt --- time.

Y
DICK: -STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: However --

Q
I don&#39;t doubt that.

ss
That&#39;s why

you, youup ended there to begin with. However -But that&#39;s why I&#39;m -~.~-9!

STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: --

-- still

here, Dick. that had

we&#39;ve gotthis event

transpired and
my personal

we&#39;ve got deal to

belief, is -Okay.
a lot

with this.

My belief,

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -that

of David&#39;s

reluctance

or, or

a lot

of this

-- these

-- you

know, this

waiting

for, for
is, is
knows he

God to tell him

this reluctance
has to face. Now

to do these
to come
-- He&#39;s not

kinds of
face

things
what he

out and

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

a man

that fears

death, I

can tell

you that -we&#39;re not talking about

.He does--

DICK: Well,

death.

STEVE SCHNEIDER:
fear --

he doesn&#39;t

DICK: I&#39;mnot talking

about death

here.

We&#39;re talking about coming

court of law and telling his

out and
story.

standing up

in a

STEVE SCHNEIDER: in those kind of

He&#39;s been those in situations before.

kind of,

environments and for years.

He&#39;s had death threats

I&#39;ve had death threats.

I&#39;ve been with him.

*3
&#39; &#39; ~ ss

DICK: Okay.

Nobody&#39;s threatening your life.

John, John Pazano, who is a

STEVE SCHNEIDER:

musician that we brought here in the

<-u

month of November,
I, I, I
one of these

I think

it was

the last
the time,

part of
but he

November,
called into

believe about

radio talk And he

shows. I said in fact, of one

got to

hear what

he had not --

to say. no other than

he

you know, way or the other

he has

affinity of,
he saw David as

with us

a musician.

He&#39;s amusician. And

gave his
or David he gave [End of

honest opinions,
or waus what tape 233.] the situation, he --

whether good
the place.

or bad,

about us

You know,