Professional Documents
Culture Documents
I
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
& FIREARMS
92 -4
TAPE #229
4/15/93
6:24 P.M. 7:33 P.M..
>
Tape 229!
JOHN: -STEVE SCHNEIDER:
communication.
Yeah.
.-an
JOHN: You
recall our
lines were
down.
Everybody -STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: And so I Right. don't think it was anybody's
particular problem
unfortunate collection
or fault.
It was
just an
that occurred.
of circumstances
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: And, face with
situation.
Right.
you came face to
as a result,
flashbacks, which
was a very
unpleasant
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Well, really
that, I
don't
but it
It was
more the
idea
would do
the actual
thing itself
JOHN: Did
it part
your hair?
NOt at all.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
me, but
there was
kid days
had ear
problems for
kid
51
really didn't.
the second
bit. And
92.~-all
one even
I said
and still
stayed there
a little
JOHN: See, as I
a road mamager for rock and
Actually, like
about my
hearing and
usually trying
even when
to cup
my ear
or stay
as far
from it,
I'm anywhere involved. JOHN: Yeah, that can be a thing -Hey, have
you had
your meal
yet? My MRE?
a tossed salad or Caesar
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: Whatever.
salad here
with or
without anchovies
tonight?
hey, I'dlike
on the other
side of
Arturis, and
kind of
food
they've got.
is it,
by the
JOHN: Galaxy?
I thought
--
92
92
STEVE SCHNEIDER: - or
;./92
.4
the Milky Way.
JOHN: Oh,
oh, oh.
something really
1..~d
serious here
now.
-the
hypothetical
or way
to know
that there's
life out
there somewhere.
JOHN: Oh,
is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Oh, dear.
JOHN: Let
me see,
there'sa place
called
Galaxy, Texas,
is that what you
which
is a little
mind? I had
bit north
of Dallas,
had in
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
a feeling
that you
you were
outside of
what did
you -
your restaurant
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
When
Iwas
--
Ilove
Italian food
Hawaii where
and Mexican
food, even
though
Ilived
in
there's no end of
Oriental variety.
JOHN: Yeah,
here in, what is this? Waco?
but as
far as
food is
concerned
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Oh, Waco.
I never
/" J,
O e
5
eat a lot around Waco. I mean, more so
really didn't
here just
out to
well
known outside
the gate
there and
Yeah, he sort of
and he
If you a whole
to
hours talking
the
goes, you
like a
page out
l 9
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Oh, no,
really?
JOHN:
Yeah. I
can imagine
Jesse wandering
into my
and doing
restaurant and
the Bible
standing in
business.
front of
my cashier
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: Yeah.
Amen, brother.
thing I
saying is
amen, brother.
He wasn'teven
JOHN: Remember,
if this
1 .
/5>~ ~
1' 0
he's going back in.
Pardon? STEVE SCHNEIDER:
soon,
JOHN: If
<..-0
this --
if you
he's going
back in.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: If we don't come out he's
going back
in where?
JOHN: To you.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: Yes.
Say what?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
here?
Are you
trying to
keep
us
what
Ihave
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Idon't know.
Imean,
I--
you know,
if you
I mean,
say so.
-- what
I don't know --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
circumstances the
imagine you
people
JOHN: No,
times.
no, no,
no, you'rerational at
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
At times.
Oh.
you reliability
times.
coefficient, we're
4/
listening to with you.
~-an
..0"79292
you are going to
U
wonder what's happening
7
those
I'm using
one of
my favorite
reliability coefficient,
sometimes.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.
we're concerned
the way,
Ithink,
you know,
we a galaxy
to Jesse
Yeah, he
is. From
what he
he
Yeah.
is.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
.I believe
he
is.
JOHN: Way
on up
on. some --
was a friend of
place, and
scientology and
in the
same
in
this guy
he --
over $100,000
JOHN: Oh,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
been on Mars and
JOHN: Ohhh. STEVE SCHNEIDER: and --
he had
traveled --
He had
traveled there
92
JOHN: Yeah,
down in
-- they
get
a big
hang
'
guy, you know, he
was an
M
guy, he
really
scientology. I
about anything
could carry
He was okay.
on a conversation
I really that it
--
-- labeled
spiritual beings
JOHN: Um-hum.
I mean,
supernatural phenomena,
ouija boards,
typoosum phonetic
about --
I mean,
sometimes get
of Hinduism
into
where
sp.!, something
it's actually
year.
-- it
takes
place
in Malaysia
once a
JOHN: Right. STEVE SCHNEIDER: and pull carts. I They put hooks on the back them run
QI
:92- rs;
~-92f
92
the cheeks.
92a{-/ 9
JOHN: Well, this is
rods through
something I talked to
of Eric Von
David about,
s-f
and I
think I
sp.!.
made mention
Donegan phonetic
yeah,
seen that
a few
that with
you, about
things -left.
the different
interpreted numerous
ways.
Well, really it can't,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
though. I mean -JOHN: You mean about
the lions
or the
--
can as
weird as
it is
JOHN: Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
And they
definitely
harmonize when
given the
opportunity. I
able to
mean, no
really do
one
has been
a good
job. There
was a
of Dr.
Waterhouse,
4. 2
Douglas Waterhouse, up in
<
92 .0
Michigan and he'd --
cause
Col. Waterhouse
is
a very
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
I think
I have
heard the
--
Yeah,
Col. Waterhouse,
JOHN: Um-hum.
I think
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Waterhouse is
a big
name in
Hawaii. They
of the
there.
Yeah. They're
accounting
crowd, too,
Price Waterhouse.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
true, they're them. But He had done one of the -I was of work
Bible, Revelation,
taken about of research
hope that kind of
Ezekiel, Zechariah.
with, then in the
In fact,
I had
him. And
meet David. that would
I wanted be.
to see
JOHN: Um-hum.
now.
commercial
base with
David about
setting this
He, he
thing up
will definitely
with Clint?
do
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
,!
:92 11
it.
He hasn't,
but I,
Iwill
--
I'1l be my way in on
there for sure at
just a
few minutes.
So he will be
7 then?
him -
Ithink
he
what
Ishould
he knows.
JOHN: Yeah.
And --
You want
me to
give you
either way,
however You
want to
Or just
give us
a call
back at 7
would be
fine,
picking up. STEVE SCHNEIDER: Okay. If is try can get you don't mind, to have a second
Is this
JOHN: Graham?
Who's this?
Craddock or somebody?
STEVE SCHNEIDER: good, very good.
JOHN: I5 he --
That's it,
that's it.
Very
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
"Gilligan's Island"
professor.
92 P ~
JOHN: Okay. Yeah.
might be considered, you know, I Graham's backgroundis, but
mi
92
- 12
communication going
or anybody
now. We
Craddock
actually finally
so stationary --
got it
like this.
techies are
JOHN: Our
going to
take
a lot
of
heat over
taking bows
that one.
for it.
They were
the
ones -They're
it's very
stationary and
firmly attached
fact --
to worry
about the
If you
saw what -I
- it's a mind
what I
did, you
know, the
JOHN:
up the line.
Okay. The
bottom
line is
don't screw
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Oh, no,
no,
no. No,
no. I
believe seriously
he -And,,
1
1 _. ,. 1,; re ;___ -_ ..-
it
O 13
you know,
from the
JOHN: You
screaming and
Q.-4
yelling at
us, do
you?
now, John?
face the
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: You
Say what
don't want us to
technies, screaming
and yelling
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Oh, I
at us?
thought maybe he was
already around
don't touch it.
there, sitting
there and
saying no,
Or else
man, why
David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
I will.
JOHN: Then
a call back? Then
about 7:00
me
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: --
away we'll
go. Okay.
Okay?
Bon Appetit.
Bye.
JOHN: Bye-bye.
** 1 *
Hello,
John?
-- I
'92
0
that'd be fine.
14
JOHN: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: in about
s.-an
i
He said I'll be down there And
15 minutes or
whenever he'll
be around.
then he
tape out to
says, Steve,
those guys
but still,
so they
that
Any, any
it up
here or
to get out of
a little
sticky
know, to be a big
in and
there, 'cause it
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Is
it really?
on up
there, but
don't too be
When David
might have
and you
an answer
get
on the
phone at
on that. Okay. So
7, hopefully,
we
for you
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
you, you
don't
think you
can do
any moves
earlier to
do anything
then?
in 15 - what have we
That's funny about that. I
-p.
.1 . ~ 92 I
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DQVGI 8Vn ""
15
JOHN: Nothing STEVE SCHNEIDER: is every easy. I thought -were easy, you'd be here out it was. I
.14
thought all
Well, hey,
I'm on way my
better
hurry up
'cause, you
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
You know,
I mean,
at least
I JOHN:
concerned about,
Um-hum. See,
what the
command is
up there
one of your folks
is
up there
that.
might take
a shot
at them
or something
like
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Good Lord.
I mean,
here we
are trying
have good
to save
times forever
your souls
and yourselves
-know, there,
so you
can
JOHN: Um-hum.
there
are some
those things
things
in the
past that
kind of
-- remembering
that occurred.
it. We've
concerned about
into security,
and boom --
I, l= t
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, look
' 16
at --
Yeah, but
look it,
I've
out here -
Imean,
to
Idon't
see me.
JOHN: But,
that time
little concerned
remember, you
took some
and they
stuff in
a
were
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Oh, that's
not true.
No
one ever
- We
never had
an agreement,
did we?
And
that was
never was.
never brought
And, and
JOHN: Um-hum.
up about
since then,
anything like
I have agreed.
that,
And --
-- you, problem.
you know,
you've
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
and -JOHN: Yeah.
But
that was
with John
Cox
STEVE SCHNEIDER: by the way, you've got me JOHN: Right. STEVE SCHNEIDER: battery pack which was
-we back on
went to that.
drop -
Oh,
'Cause Isent
you out
my and
a six-hour
battery pack,
' E
92
I I,
I've not seen it
I have.
17
since, nor the original onehour pack
JOHN: Well,
on it. The other
a good
concerned
price
thing that
about, people
and out.
keep popping
out on
the roof
and going
in
sure. Just
a few
minutes ago
didn't your - or
whatever got
a flashback?
something that
mean, that
is not
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
know. And,
go along
with that.
You know,
we don'tneed to
go
through it
has stopped,
again, but,
also.
you know,
with Dave
Jones, that
just a
pile of
things
Iwould
like
are out,
.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
18
Remember, the only two
out, in
the two
and, of
--
course, they
that, can
know, we
to and
basically state
know.
JOHN: Um-hum.
And I
was mad
under both
and I
- if -I found
I were
in your
can understand
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
out about
Jones and
I found
out about
this other
guy doing
that, I
-- In
fact, I
either.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
And he
said if
the guy
--
anybody does
something like
that
again you
get to
have
them irregardless.
JOHN: Yeah. control of your guys
'" y
Here, here's -- You're losing in there. Did you hear -Let's not
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
' 19
beat a dead horse now. Now, let's --
.4
other. Okay.
Okay.
JOHN: But
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
you know
what we're
Of course I do.
saying here.
JOHN: And
run out as much
this is
why we
And --
thought that's
something
JOHN: It's
not
a bad
idea.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
I thought
maybe it
would
give
Clint
a little
to hit
him
with something
homework and
solid and,
what about
do his
say okay,
that?
JOHN: Um-hum.
.It's --
I think
would have
we're
guess it
is or
something like
David's going to be
are, these
are indeed
hard
, '.
Q
times.
20
Let me a violin and give you symphony. Iare on the same page a crying
here and
think you
on
that one.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Well,
Iknow
where you're
coming from
very clearly. JOHN: Yeah. I guess it's beenthree funthere has been some
filled weeks
high spots. STEVE SCHNEIDER: JOHN: No, -Marriotts or Disneyland? there anymore.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
JOHN: I'm back on
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
out? "
Okay. when
are you
heading
thought you
the next
going to
be coming
day or
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
knows? who
knows?
Imean,
he's definitely
working on
these
things, so,
the seals.
Imean,
Idon'tknow. I
myself have
all
JOHN: Umhum.
I only
have
a very
cursory I've
OO
waiting for.
been waiting -Actually, it is the one
=1
H
that we've been
JOHN: Well
--
._.-4
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
And after
going through
all
six and
then, all
28th
happens. You
that: why,
bingo. So
-I understand I still have to call how that do a few us back works. more odd at around
Have David
they can
like that.
solve all
the world'sproblems or
something
Okay,
will do
it.
Talk to
then.
JOHN: Right,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
a
CLINT: HellO?
Hello. Clint
maybe?
This is
Steve.
CLINT:
Hello, Steve.
How are
you?
Q
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
me. I He says
e.-4
Q =2
Yeah, David's right behind
him. He for said just a minute. I get to a minute until to get him just
the phone.
CLINT: Okay,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Steve.
is
think this
the first
you, huh?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
It's not?
CLINT: No,
srzvr SCHNEIDER:
talked to
you, have
CLINT: Yes,
I?
you have.
Man, how
long ago
probably a
couple of
Wow. I
don't remember.
Anyway, so,
this morning
answered gotten out then even
yeah, the
and I
questions were
on to
was hoping could
passed on to me
him. He actually
passed them
that he
with a to you
tape
which you
have looked
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
He's coming.
said get
there. So
him on
the phone,
he says,
just
he'll be here in
a minute
F.
92
"l I,
CLINT: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: two weeks
Q-at
23
_
So, so Idid speak with you
ago or
so?
I'm the one that introduced
CLINT: Um-hum.
you on attorneys.
the telephone,
you and
David both
to your
okay,
Ido
thinking more
trying to
work
CLINT: That's
understandable.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
you from, Clint?
CLINT: Well --
Right. And
so where
are
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
is. No more small talk.
Here he
is, Clint,
here
he
CLINT:
Iappreciate
that.
srsvs SCHNEIDER:
HR. KORESH: CLINT: Hello, MR. KORESH:
here for a second.
Okay, just
Hello, Clint. David. Oh, boy. Good to
a minute.
get
a break
they said
that there
were problems
commanders or something.
3
24
can I up there
will you
papers, on
on your,
your side?
my side?
Yeah.
I can't recall -
on my
side,
Clint, one
of your
to the
questions you
opening of
were asking
was, was
in regards
the seals.
Let me, let me tell you where
CLINT: Yeah.
my questions
are coming
from, David.
kind of
a second. with you.
give you
[gap] One [gap]
an overview
moment. One
on
be right
HR. KORESH:
I'm here.
CLINT:
Yeah. To
make a long
story short,
my
in my
car and
opening
HR. KORESH:
too, so
Clint.
I try not to do that, but when
'
92
Q
one's drivinga rental
me give get on
~..-1
Q
car, that
you and
.5
me, let
know, can, you okay?
happens. Let
I can,
so that set of
scriptures together,
All right.
HR. KORESB:
CLINT: What,
what brings
me here
is not
to -you to
What brings
do anything, of there
me talking
to you
is not
to convince
you're you to
try to
coming out
it, and
do
I believe
I'm nothere to
influence you
would like
one way
to see
or the
other. As
an FBI
agent, I
see it
this resolved
for all
of your
an interest
in your
as a
in what and I
just so
guess my
that I
better understand
here to duel with
you. And,
you, okay?
Bible swords
understand
your position.
almost, than
a personal
thing,
thing. And
thing
have
beliefs.
that brings
a better
me to
your doorstep
you and
right now,
some of
is to
your
understanding of
- MR.
KORESH: Well,
there's nogreater
92
26
profession than the study of heart to heart, which is
the whole
isn't it?
~.-I
purpose of
I mean,
Christ coming
even with it? okay. You
in the
first place,
know, it was a
Pilate, you
heart to
I've taught Sunday School and been a lot involved in, of years. you
own personal
MR. KORESH:
church for
Uh-huh.
I guess
say been --
that
other Christians,
I'll do it today,
CLINT: Let
me look
at Psalms,
Proverbs,
because
that's nice
and comforting,
and I
CLINT: Yeah.
do the
same
thing
with
your children.
that anyone something --
And they're, they're just -can understand. is a book And I that people think need
5 _ F
27
but shy
away from.
And I
think we,
as
historically done
that. And
I'm
a I've got
interested in
number of
~_,-4
it and
passed some
on to
you
through --
A
HR. KORESH: Yeah, I have them right here
in
my hand
night And
I just
a little believe in
how you
bit of those
feel
an
understanding of
areas, what
influenced in
your teachings
each of those areas.
MR. KORESH:
Okay, Clint.
Well, first
Of
all, the
was given
CLINT: I
by Moses.
understand.
MR. XORESH:
Jesus Christ.
CLINT: Um-hum.
But grace
by
HR. KORESH:
And we
see
that the
whole format
of the, to put
the burden
of Matthew,
Mark, Luke
is
through, through
the writings
inspiration of
world and
so selflessly
and what did
in this
he
do
how did
that power
with
that power?
doing of
good, bringing
I-
Q
man to God through the works
of a
when we a lot
6 =8
man and
start off of different
his
our
testimony? well,
first students,
a .-4
basically,
we deal
we have
with
to
denominations and
first glorify
to the
Christ.
cross, you
You know,
people point
know, and
Well, did
our sins?
they say
he die
And what
well,
for our
were our
this man
sins or
died for
did he
our sins.
die because of
know, Isaiah
53, we
hid our
faces from
was stricken,
smitten of
was wounded
him so,
right? But
know, the
he
transgressions. You
first commandment oh, Israel listening they listen they hear the Lord is a talent
of God
to Israel is one
as beings listen to
Did they
Did they
understand
were listening
Well, the
theological world
2,000 years
ago
in Judaism
was about
as theological
as anybody
can get.
a man
forgets what
he says,
might forget.
CLINT: Let me ask you this, David, and as we
- 92
92
Q
go on, let, let me interject, too, just for my own
also, and
there
is areas
that I
teach in
that
know, I
I can
right off
It'sa part
of my
head.
I can
start either up to
know,
can go
whatever
And -Uhhuh.
CLINT: --
one doesn't
have to
have an
academic background
to understand,
one has
to have
thirst and
a hunger
HR. KORESH:
for knowledge.
Umhum.
CLINT: And
I guess
I think
that makes
the
student and
someone who's
occupying a
HR. KQRESH:
Well, the
Christian, the
true
wants to I mean,
words of
Christ, to
read Matthew,
.so
you feel that, in essence? Do you get a chance to, do
Well, first
of all
--
CLINT: --
go into
the field
that you're
teaching, that
the time?
everything you
say is,
is anointed
at
right? But
through the that if
that which
book of any man
I received
John he
of my
father. All
how know
will do whether I
He says, you
have life
and there
they which
testify of
to the
scripture as
to teach the
he began of my
they'll say
excuse me,
teach.
before you
began to
CLINT: Okay.
Now, see,
that's -- I, I
think
questions, though.
I mean,
you know,
M. KORESH:
the Holy Spirit.
Basic Christianity,
praying for
Q Q
CLINT: As
lot of things that
.1
an FBI agent, though,
do that
there's a
I don't
have time
mi
and drop
to my
my eyes B.
Always.
point
HR. KORESH:
CLINT: And,
before you ever do
M. KORESH:
and cover
yourself
in prayer
something.
Amen. That's the way we're
supposed to
walk
in the
spirit. That's
what Christ
told Nicodemus,
be more
to the
spirit like
from but -Qkay, of people
the
you can
wind.
see the
they would
That's just a
Christian factor.
you know,
I like
to think
in and by
me hearing
your voice
of it.
a question,
the honest
scriptures, though.
jl_ I
see, there's nothing more in the tune of prayer than
32
spirit. And
in the mind of
praying in the
we have to pray
if we pray in the
God. In
spirit,
other words,
faith is
C.
things that
CLINT: The HR. KORESH:
are hoped
substance of
for.
things hoped of things for. not
Exactly. Evidence
seen. Abraham
I'll go out into
did not
this land
just say
one day
I just
will
think
out here
and God
it to
spake which
of faith.
to believe we say
in we believe
what God
given to
him.
by the
testament of
men's witnesses,
Well, because
trying to
teach God
in the
days of
of God
Christ could
in no
that Christ
cross, Jesus
what I wait
added an
a minute.
working of
Although he
in the
flesh.
of
law, he
was a keeper
the law.
anybody, did
Be, as
he?
the living
oracle, did
not condemn
0
CLINT: Do you feel bound by
.as
"the law" MR. KORESH: No, I never have. You see, the
anymore? _
question may arise, like CLINT: No, speaking of like that. the law in Matthew and understand of the federal court 23 -I'm not just or something
92..-I
in Christian
No.
terms of
the law.
CLINT: Okay.
MR. KORESH:
No. See,
understand that
the
law is
hearts of
something which
men. For
the New
instance, Paul
Testament places
says -the Jews For
in the
instance, like keeping the law, not shadows of. would have Eve kept kept in
in Colossians, Sabbath, the even understanding They were to say was in that the no wise the
have been feast days really were some event. that Adam day And we and as a
the
that Moses
Do you Well, I to
understand? mean, you, a Sunday, happens is you don't do you? is that -to
attribute the
No. What
would like
I.
Q O
HR. KORESH: Oh, well, sure. But the facts
=4
murderer, he
CLINT: I
was a
was a killer
that.
of Christians.
understand
HR. KORESH:
And he
had that
right by
the
state. It to Damascus
In the light,
thou me call himself to Moses - the
Christ, says
pricks. Well, for? Well, the burning
a prick in
that spake
a thornbush,
the that was law, divine
was the
same person
that was
is the
to give
Moses
God, which
same person
we accept
accepting forgiveness
Father, forgive
And so we have
based upon
they know
a broad
our ignorance.
not what
area between
them for
to leave
they do.
our
of God
so that
we might commit my
into thy
hand I
CLINT: My
MR. KORESH:
spirit, okay.
Okay. so now, when we come to
the final
which John
revelation of
the Revelator
Jesus Christ,
receives on
which is that
the Isle of
Patmos, remember,
the Christian
Church
is already
U
established. The Apostolic Church
Spirit. And
~--.
'
from the Day of
that all relations, Ephesians,
as
to bring
to the
unity, speak
in the
happens is
John the
Revelator,
receives a he gives
message from
the to
in Asia, Ephesus,
Philadelphia, Laodicea.
well and their works
Now, these
were being
alive and
done in
their day.
But yet,
John, the
the
spirit of
Christ
tell them what
conversed through
Apostle, to
was pleasing
to God
and what
was not.
I mean,
they had
to have some correction, Well, this important as Romans or difference is, up to maturity in is a
didn't they? revelation of Mark, Luke Ephesians. Well, 4, and this is faith, in to come I will show Christ just and John the where we Chapter up hither, you that which come 4 say, or as
heaven, and
OQ
must be off and hereafter. Now, leave the this is where we usually take unwilling behind, because the
:6
subjects brought
~44
to view
4, 5, able to of the
and 6 actually
will be
subjects that
no one together in
judicial system,
The same
living creatures
that Isaiah
in vision
this chapter,
in Chapter 6 of
Chapter And they 4 of say God
holy, holy.
creator of
We see
all
in the
Verse
ll that
this God
things. This
the Christian speaks of.
is the
one and
only true
God spoken
that Christ
of by
this is
the God
the Apostle to
John's writings
that Christ
consistently referred
his doctrine
we have
not being
his own
that
but his
father's, then
to the
to understand
a revelation
gentiles, there
is to
be another
revelation of
Jesus
Christ which
God gives
to him.
in the latter days. The
So there's no excuse
God in
my father,
Chapter 5,
has a
Verse 1,
book in
the father,
his right
your father
hand and
and
it's sealed
mighty angel,
O O
judiciary system to all those who are holy in heaven
=1
seven
CLINT: Let
here. How believe do you that John feel
me, let
about John
me ask
you a question
one, do was you
- Number that he
wrote Revelations,
inspired to
Z
on the island?
MR. KORESH:
of trouble.
If he
CLINT: Yeah,
Ithink
--
M. KORESH:
CLINT: Is
But what
that what
happened is
you feel?
-Do you
believe that,
though?
HR. KORESH: Yeah. Well,
reason. In
I know
it as
fact. And
here's another
Corinthians --
okay. Just
Iguess
not resolve
MR. KORESH:
through you
Sure.
are say
that John
when he
in visions
wrote this
that he
was contained
received. And
read in
various writings
that
Q
throughout your life you've had various find
-..-A
.as
dream things between the
own?
visions or
dreams that
John
had
HR. KORESH:
states is what John
Well, remember
states and is there
that what
for any
John
man to
read. John
the Isle
clearly states
of Patmos he heard
to the
a voice
church that
behind him,
while on
as a
and from
to
thou has
which shall
be hereafter.
was writing
to the write
responsibility to
the responsibility
Well, it's not a matter
to write?
of
of
it
is is
has already
that after
stated, and
Asia
churches of
their independent
Christ, which
counsel given
is known as the
to him
Holy Spirit,
by the
angel of
that
we see
John is
told by
the same
angel to
be shown
a vision
up
hither, and
judgment which book in the
the seven
of God.
to be
is something
But --
CLINT: Okay,
but where
does David
come into
I i
IO
this, yourself?
MR. XORESH: Well, what
:9
y
happens is --
CLINT: No,
92...4
I, I
mean --
I guess
I'm talking
personally.
MR. XORESH: In Chapter 22.
CLINT: No,
and I
personally, where
Revelation and
were you
your knowledge
first introduced
and your
into
study and
at what
point did
you had
-- did
you you
had additional
Do you
essence, do
-feeling. is
inspired, is Revelation, to
chapter?
you, or
what, what
to
that more
than any
HR. XORESH:
Well, that's
not, that's
not --
CLINT: That,
you back to the rest of
that leads
the scriptures?
Okay. Well,
you back,
that leads
it'srevelation a
MR. XORESH:
what reason? To show
Who gave
to his
it to
him? God.
For
servants.
CLINT: All
right, now,
where, where
--
92
40
David -,_-a
do you
Where do yourself to
stand in
a prophet?
Christ? Where
-- who
is David?
MR. KORESH:
Well, remember
Matthew 24?
counsel that
your Lord
disciples leaders
temple? In
Christ and
CLINT: In
Matthew 23,
his teachings,
weren't they?
Matthew 23?
MR. KORESH:
Right. Ye
hypocrites, you
nice
are you
at in
I don't have
you, but
instance, in they
the scribes
Moses seat,
6 '92 I
OO
right?
CLINT: Umhum.
.1
MR. KORESH:
=4
They think
they're equal
to
He says not as
not
to do do not.
they do
And then
they bind
heavy burdens
grievous to
lift them
be borne, which
with
one of
them all land and
their fingers.
through there. sea to convert
know, he
begins to
tell go over
one,
him they
make him
- son
than they
teaching their
their scriptural
CLINT: Okay.
Then we ye called
to 8,
though, one is
where we
your master
read but
--
be not
-Christ
ye are
And those
brothers.
who exalt
be abased.
CLINT: Okay.
Now --
' ma. KORESH: Okay. CLINT: through, work David, stay with me and, and work
through this
with me.
IQ
HR. KORESH:
CLINT: Is
42
Okay. y
David the Christ?
MR. KORESH:
~41
root and
offspring of what's
David. I,
Jesus, have
angel. That's
stated in
things in
Revelation 22,
the churches.
right? To
I am the root,
show unto
you these
I
which means
of David,
the bright
of David,
he that
opens and
no man
CLINT: Okay. MR. KORESH: you know in Psalms -Shut and no man can open. Now,
CLINT: Is,
is your
basic premise,
is your
basic premise
then if
you have
No. What
the key
you must
be him?
happens is .
this. No
you have
remains to them O,
Christ tells
Jerusalem,
which
as the I would
prophets
that
into thee.
as a hen
have gathered
and you would
problem is
Israel won't
*u
Q
listen to
Behold, your a temple
xi
Ithe prophets,
house
you know.
-- you
if the
people
of the
whereby the
the earthly
there? If
The word
temple is
to be
built for?
What good is
of God are they is not rejecting?
building when
they reject
of God made flesh.
CLINT: And
I look
in Matthew
23:34 where
it
said I
send unto
you prophets
and wise
men and
scribes.
them
MR. KORESH:
Scribes and
you'll stone
and kill
upon you
them and
may come
persecute them
all the
from city
upon the
to city,
earth
to the
but
blood shed
the blood
Abel to
of Zechariah
Barachiah who
they
slew between
the porch
and
Definitely. They
in
see that
didn't accept So it
shall
Lord.
Zechariah's message
says you say blessed shall not is he
CLINT: Yes. MR. KORESH:
his day,
either. Okay.
until you
the name of the
me henceforth
cometh in
Now, if
come in
person who
won't know.
claims to
CLINT: You,
what we
run into
a lot agent
of times,
David, and
question
as an FBI
U 4". .
I "
many times is that over the, you know, 25 years or so
I've encountered a lot of people who have_either
44
claimed that
-. .4
they functioned
divine
guidance
--
MR. KORESH:
Divine inspiration,
yeah.
it might
be.
stands before
and
and
part of
know, I
kept sending
messengers to
you and
everytime I
did that
you didn't
had to
someplace else
to go
and their
word
wasn't heard.
In essence,
seen many
messengers
that have
or very
come and
their message
has gone
unanswered,
few messengers?
MR. KORESH:
We need He wrote to listen of Christ, CLINT: Yes,
MR. KORESH:
Well, let
me, let
the best
me state this.
we can, right?
to Matthew
first. You
know,
we need
to listen
to
what _
'cause we know on
the Day
of Pentecost
those that
sons of
believed
God. The
him to
they gave
ye power
to become
be
Pentecost was
something to
undenied, correct?
conversion of
the
I_
Q
Apostle Paul Christ, claiming and the mighty works he did none power to himself
'
in the but only unto
45
name of
ashamed of
God.
the gospel
I mean, reasoning of
Everyone that
the gospel
of Christ of God
is more
is not
the
unto salvation.
than just a
just a we read
because how
New -
Steve Schneider
to all
eventually
of Revelation,
find
that what
must be
hereafter is
that God gave
revelation of
Jesus Christ
to him,
that you
and it'sgoing to
and every other man
be according
in this
to seven
world can
seals
see
pertains to
forth.
a red
horse, black
horse, red,
pale, and
so
CLINT: And,
responsibility to
be able
to discern
false prophets.
MR. KORESH:
CLINT: Be
Exactly.
that an Oral Roberts or be that
!
46
--
Jimmy Swaggert
You know, you
or whatever
you
one
not believe.
Robertson. I,
find
a ground
that is
not common
enjoy his
teachings.
H. XORESH:
CLINT: You
on, I
know.
do,
too.
um. xonssa:
men --
These
know,
James type
MR. KORESH:
Fundamentalist. And
that's
there are
that one
Translations.
so many
can use,
different
but --
-but
I like ~
The Bible
-- I'mvery comfortable
MR. KORESH:
of the
Reformation --
CLINT: And
MR. KORESH:
from that.
Reformation is
one of
the most
-- When
you go
you read
to Israel
and study
with
--
the greatest
rabbis and
CLINT: Yeah.
their translations
HR. KORESH:
- it's
almost word
for word
King James.
That should
tell you
something.
'
I0
CLINT: Well, you know what Ihave to, what
4-
I
have to
work with
one,
is you've spoken to
Ijust
many people
more
here
and, number
v.-.1
to hear
my voice
and Iwant
here and
mankind that
front of of the
by some
at times Christ or
as the
the lamb
of God.
Now, I
I'm saying --
Ineed
to who
a point
you are.
to begin
has the
He can
key of
open, and
man can
you understand?
that.
CLINT: David,
Okay. So
Okay. I've
7 3
P. Q
CLINT: Okay. HR. KORESH: And I'll go -I y won't quote,
.8
I'll just read it right out of the King
CLINT: Okay,
to Psalms.
wait a
MR. KORESH:
This is
Psalms.
CLINT: Okay,
got to understand, my MR. KORESH:
CLINT: Yes.
I know.
Ilike
that. a Christian
when 30 years
that's been
nice crisp
one and
the pages
won't
CLINT: It's,
because I've writtan in so
in mine
that real
does mine.
David was
inspired, 11
the
tell you,
Lord put
in Psalms
trust. Now,
0 . 92
O
question is
we believe right?
92..~a
.
was he
he was
49
I mean,
his offspring,
serving the
because Christ
right Lord?
came as
we,
CLINT: Well,
when he
says in
the Lord
then
he's referring -- do
MR. XORESH: End of Tape #229.!
you believe
He's referring
K I
Q
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF
Q 1
THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF
ALCOHOL, TOBACCO
& FIREARMS
vii
TAPE #230
4/15/93
7:33 P.M. - 8:17 P.M.
I
Tape 230
5 2
MR. KORESH: - Asians and David sees things
nature. Okay. say he to my "In the soul flees Lord, put a bird all my to your
of heavenly
--ad
trust. How
at the
foundations be
What are these is in
can the
righteous do?
David's talking
about? The
Lord
his holy
in heaven.
temple.
Is that
Is that
true? In
true? The
Revelation 4
Lord's throne is
and 5,
David's offspring,
Christ, is
in heaven.
He takes
the
book from right hand of father, andit the the was that
Christ who gave David
CLINT: Now,
to Revelations 4 and
MR. KORESH:
his kingdom,
David, you
5. Now,
Uh-huh.
who anointed
just, you
David.
just went
now.
I'm in Revelations 4
you? Iwas
11.
just referring
to
me a reference,
C 3
because --
-I
MR. KORESH:
to the reference after
All right.
we
Well, then
Psalm. This
that we
we'll go
-can
finish the
foundation so
is a
what
he was and I,
CLINT: I
know,
years, you
tried to
I really
want my
in Verse
4 of
Psalms
heaven. His
his eyelids
children of
the wicked
men. The
in him
the righteous,
violence his
that loveth
soul hated.
Upon the
wicked he
shall rain
and shall be
Lord loveth
brimstone and
portion of
the horrible
their cup, for
the
righteousness and
upright." Okay.
So in
his countenance
doth behold
the
the Book
of Revelation,
where all
the
books of
the Bible
meet and
and ends in the
end there,
Book of
every prophetic
Revelation,
utterance meets
we're going
to see.
In Revelation,
Chapter 4,
John is
>, .
92 e
D
told by his accompanying angel to
This is
. .~Q
Q 4
come up hither and
Verse 1.
4, Verse
"And the
1.
first voice which I
heard was
as it
were of
a trumpet
me," up hither
thee things
be hereafter."
Every Christian
CLINT: It MR. KORESH:
in this.
CLINT: Therefore,
MR. KORESH: It will
it will
be. It
be?
is. And
immediately I,
throne was
John, "was
in heaven."
in the
What must
spirit and
be? A
behold a
throne in
on a the throne
stone." Now,
the Psalms
rock, correct? CLINT:
M. KORESH:
and Prophets
referred to
That's correct,
"And there
David.
was a rainbow round
about the
there's no
throne, in
reason to
fact like
be confused
unto to
here.
an emerald."
So
what do we go
the --
' '1
I
from jasper
green?
Q 5
which -to an emerald, from
there in
a yellow
--
to a
What, what
significance is
in the
of the
Aramaic
is the and in
when the
4. Now,
of the
you see,
dust of
who's made
the earth,
CLINT: Umhum.
MR. KORESH:
But when
we deal
with the
redeemed body
brilliancies of
or the
celestial body,
creation that
man, without
as the
12
instance, in
Lucifer had
these 9
stones as
his covering, is is
such as that
in -the high
these 12
substance of
stones. It
creation, what
has something
man
physiologically is So what
made out I do
before I
things with
things of
beautiful stones
my students,
the obvious,
as Igo
such as
as a
into the
these brilliant,
rock. It
more simpler
show God
doesn't say
he
was a
jasper or
-- stone,
but
the prophet
was implying
kg
I
that as the brilliancies of these brilliant, or
~--U
I6
polished which were more so, than these. But he'ssolid,
thing of
it is throne that
it says
he saw
this
about the
You see?
CLINT: Um-hum.
was like
a jasper
MR. KORESH:
A rainbow
that was
like
an
is that
well, okay, no
And this
to an
emerald. Now,
we know
that
a rainbow
is created
by the
refraction of
In the word. We
light, but,
really, the
lesson is
simple.
by his
MR. KORESH:
And then
the time
came when
God
spake to end to
Noah and
God said
I will
bring
an
have made.
CLINT: Understood.
I'll bring
a flood.
v s 92
.3 1" 7
impossible thing
The laws of creation
to place
in the
reversal of
far beyond
creation.
what man
were broken
could comprehend
92. ~11
to stand flood I
so then bring
he tell
us that
MR. KORESH:
keynote is,
is this,
is is
that
salvation, their
escape impending
they thought
upon their
the Tower
to be
a judgment
of God,
was totally
based
own confusion,
of Babel
called
we turn
away from
up ideals
that are be a
this is
Clint? And
truth,
part of
the one
here, Brother
this God
sits on
rainbow, there's a
a memorial
of his
II
IO
everlasting covenant, his word. Okay? Now --
8
I'd likebe to
whole purpose
in a very
answer you,
to understand.
too, you
And I
know. My
see you
here was
comfortable teaching
position, and
I think
that's,
I'd back and
And yet, we go
have the
chance to
interact as
It's just
I,
not --
understand that
question and into the
back.
and go
I'm thinking
on. But
of before I
if you're asking
my reaction can give to it,
a
you're
next sentence
the reaction
memorial round
He is the he can
Exactly. the
"And upon
.*
09
elders sitting clothed in white raiment, and they had
this judiciary
out
"And
were seven
of God.
Before the
throne were
The first calf, the
four beasts
beast is third beast like a
full of
eyes before
and behind.
a the
has the
fourth beast
was like
You know,
a flying
this is
eagle."
one of the subjects that
view in of them
they
were full
of eyes
holy, holy,
is, and is to
within and
holy, Lord
come."
they rest
not day
and
night, saying
which was,
God Almighty,
CLINT: Okay,
future, the past.
there
we're talking
the --
about the
all
on
ever, the
sat on
and
5.
92
>
10
has created
an-1 were created."
all things.
And for
thy pleasure
they all
So the
matter
must be
subject is
this is definitely
obvious in
the simple
of what
in that
a revelation
event of
hereafter is
an awesome
God residing
on his
of this,
throne and
to be
the prestige
of being
in
a participant
a small glimmer
able to
even realize
of the to clarify
him that
the back
authority of when it
sit on
side sealed
in the
written within
the throne
with seven
and on
seals.
does God
there? Well, to be
with
a question
proclaiming
asked. "And
a loud voice."
CLINT: Do
Gabriel?
you believe
that to
be the
Angel
Well, if
to give
you an
it, you
know, our
very, very
CLINT: Well,
I mean,
do you
feel --
If you
said it
would be
an opinion
Well, I
or do
you know
as a
if ---
MR. KORESH:
know it
O0
CLINT: -MR. KORBSH: as a fact? it as a fact. I know
11
I was
to make
a statement well go
that God
that I
then I
that I
might as
know who
ahead and
is. Do are.
those 24
elders
MR. KORESH:
are.
And who
those living
creatures
CLINT: Well,
I guess
what, what
- The
question to
know the
me, David,
answer, why
MR. KORESH:
that begs
not give it?
the answer
is if
you
1
Well, because
it wouldn't
benefit you
well, how
because even
does David
if I
said yes
knows? I
or no,
you'd say
know,
think he
mean, you
difference at
okay.
this point.
MR. KORESH:
When I
start opening
--
CLINT: Getting
does make a difference.
past that,
Okay? It
we talk
just know
does make a
that it
difference. Whatever
about makes
a difference.
here
,=
Q
CLINT: That's correct.
Q 1.
-
So, therefore,
not
burden to
angel. Okay.
emphasis on
the lamb
and the
subjects of Within
up to you,
God,
the lamb.
open them
then you'll understand more seraphim, God this question. strong angel, the question on the
about the
throne, and
this angel
all those
CLINT: Okay,
How can one differentiate,
David, let
how can
take, as
take a
learned
if we to me,
say David,
M. KORESH:
CLINT: --
Exactly.
the content of that. And if one
-If
have the
you -But
academic --
if others
have that
same key,
they have the
they
the ability,
spiritual ability,
that they can open
they, they
my mind
have been
to those
covered
in such
how
seals, then
Q0
does one discern the various prophets?
13
takes place you'll is
says no
the earth,
as we
progress, scripture
neither under
man in
was able
heaven nor
on earth,
neither to
look thereon. 22 is
If
that is
true, states
when Revelation
fulfilled, which
Christ says
every man.
I come,
my reward
is with
me to
give unto
CLINT: Wait
22?
a minute.
You're in
Revelations
MR. KORESH:
CLINT: Verse?
Revelation 22.
This is
over here
-- Still
in
You were to go to 16
I think, back to
16. to you these
7?
mine angel
things in
David, the
the churches.
bright morning CLINT: Now,
I am
the root
and offspring
of
2:28 --
MR. KORESH:
Okay.
I will give
him
promise to
the
ql" I,
churches of Asia. Now, we see here in Verses 7 of
14
dealing with
the City
Chapter 22
water of
s-Q4
the subject
life that CLINT: Wait,
the river,
of God, in Verse
the
right? 7 of
comes from
wait. You're
what? Of
22?
MR. KORESH:
Twenty-two.
I come
is
keepeth the
sayings of
MR. KORESH:
don't understand,
And you
correct?
CLINT: That's correct.
I John I had
heard and
feel down
to worship
before the
And this
feet of
the angel
which
angel is
the angel
CLINT: Okay. -- Is
there to retain there may
your interpretation,
is only one who the knowledge be multiples
MR. KORESH:
reading of
at various
is only
is, there
lamb --
CLINT: Yeah,
MR. KORESH:
but
- in
-heaven.
' _
Q
CLINT: That's -- Okay.
I15
And I, I agree with
knowledge, there
willing and share that.
And even in this
who are
And where
situation we're
is discerning he says
at Verse 18.
who or --
MR. KORESH:
Well, let's
CLINT: Okay, honesty, if, person is, lamb, then what may be
let me
just in
a prophet. a con
you're not a
may he
If I'mtrying to
show you
the
CLINT: But
to show feel on the
the question
Do you --
is why
do it
do you choose
because you
because you
That way
am.
don't listen,
92
.0
30, where, states very
descended? You
Q.-Q
16
where Solomon clearly who's says -Well, look at, Solomon ascended to heaven? Who's
wind in his fists know, who's bound the
the waters
in his
is his
name?
And he
says the
word of
the Lord
David, I, I start
you're talking
MR. KORESH:
CLINT: And,
me.
do that
to
MR. KORESH:
you, but what we're,
down to
what we're
trying to with a
do here, lot of
that
people who
MR. KORESH:
CLINT: In
-- every
fact, in fact,
time I
people that
do know
CLINT: Wait
the scriptures.
a minute. Wait a minute. The
seven seals
First Peter
are something
that there's
reserved. Peter
a salvation
says in
that's reserved in
Q
states wait for the graces
Jesus Christ.
17
to come to you at the
a The seven seals are
subject that
the sin
of the
and pieces
of what
truth, but
when Christ
a testament
far beyond
warnings of of Chapter
CLINT: Wait
a minute,
the words of
the
unto these
that are
"MR. KORESH:
from the take away words of his part
"Any if
of
away
God shall and out of
the book
the holy
this book."
and it is
city and
from the
things
which are
written
this book,
in
We cannot
almost a
add our
opinions to
foolish statement
for someone
to say
:' _.
0 18
they know the meaning of this book unless they are 100
you think
there are
of this
others, David,
that understand
the meanings
MR. KORESH:
all around the world
Absolutely not.
and one of the
the most
trouble is
is that
I began
to open
the
I come he bring?
quickly."
Icome Isaiah
strong
His reward.
with a
will come
hand, his
what is
reward is
his work?
with him,
Gathers his
his work
flock like
before him.
a shepherd.
I mean,
in the
latter part
of Isaiah,
the
Lord proclaimed
thy salvation
we see that Christ
to the
cometh, his
end of
the world,
saying through
Imean,
man, zero,
reward is
with him.
that no
receives reward
not, can
reveal. John
couldn't reveal
it. He
could
of the to take
would be
days of
there
the Apostles
in Philippians
there in
the
Corinthians, look
all
kinds of
inspired of
spiritual insights.
is the
opening of
the
1--IQ
declared tohis servantsthe prophets, harmonizing the prophetic teachings the perspective seal to and trumpet
as foundin Revelations Chapters 6 and Chapters and 8
so forth.
CLINT: -- as far as the understanding of the seals. You know, I, you know,to me, you know, I've,
would helpme. Haveyou opened fifth seal? Do you the feel that the fifth seal has been opened,if you don't
want to ascribe it to yourself?
minute, Clint,
in heaven -,
:; I
20
the judiciary
throne. The
lamb on
the sea
of glass
a truth
is revealed
alter, and
When the subject is Christ. This and of
of the
trumpets.
the his our Lord a '
become the
his Christ.
begins to in heaven
a woman the
of
and she
was to
is the
rule all
one that
nations
brought forth
with a rod
And the
dragon makes
war against
the woman
and the
dragon was
cast down,
because the
manchild is
in Chapter
talks about
11. Now,
the two
MR. KORESH:
in Chapter
witnesses -Um-hum.
ll, Verse
3, where
it
CLINT: --
there are
some who
say those
two
I've a husband
and wife,
indicated
who in
that they
a place
called Jasper,
were --
Arkansas,
I don't know if
and Keith them?
were, they
them. They
sp.!. Did
you ever
Ki l
/92.
v ,.,_ 2 1
iMR.KORESH: NO. I
CLINT: Okay. a number
~-vi
of years
-- In
traveled and
days.
they had
MR. KORESH:
Clothed
in sack
cloth?
CLINT: Yes.
Yes. And
they felt
that they
had been
inspired to of in
that
had, in
at that
-If
they sound,
in their
own way,
in their
own knowledge
very lucid.
case brought authorities, in Revelations
And
about
Chapter ll,
would happen
Verse 9, that in
to them. MR. KORESH: CLINT: Well,
three-anda-half days
what
scripture say
have happened?
No, we
know they
didn't
92
QO
believed -believed what they -I honestly, totally believe they they said.
Exactly. believed what
and if one would
2.
they said.
hear their
MR. KORESH:
~.-A
CLINT: They
one would hear them
And if
what they
had gone
point and
the analogies
the scriptures,
understandable, they,
that. But
one could
they -true.
it wasn't
MR. KORESH:
No,
it
wasn't.
days later
they were
still so.
still -her
is
still in
the ground.
MR. KORESH: CLINT: And it's sad, isn't it? number of
Well, it's,
it's sad in a
different
ways.
It's --
I, I
guess
as a
Christian I
like to
there are are divinely
think that
those out
people have
there who I do
the insight
really feel mine and
and that
their lives_ as I believe
inspired, as
you, you
know, yours
is, too.
What's
f.
/"92
1
,
D0
me it's greater a
growing more
23
knowledge of the scriptures,
-- It's -- In
it's
an
Christ-like. That's
earthly example,
92-C
it's setting
an example
for my
wife
and for
for you
and that
the various
things that
for in my
I believe
life and
to be
true
my life.
responsibility. If
that's my responsibility. But
know, I'm one of that, that's that or -- I
I'm a missionary
to
share the
word,
is it
to believe
the two
you
no, to say way.
to believe
to function
Right. Well,
--
totally renounced
is brought to view,
which is
of the
Chapter 10,
seven thunders
declared to Zechariah view, revolving seven eyes
being uttered
his servants these two around the
and a candlestick
0 24
saying this might nor is the by power, word of the Lord -- saying seven eyes the same not by of by my spirit the say about Zechariah had
92--A
'" /1
somewhat to
4 and S.
revelation
of Revelation
So if
whatever Zechariah
had to
say is
true,
rock with
seven eyes,
that he true
a book
engraving thereof,
will sit on a throne
must be
does have
and he
did write
it and
it would
be given
to the
lamb
spirits of
God.
we're supposed to
thoroughly the seven be
seals. Otherwise,
of Chapter
11 will
misinterpreted, just
4, 3, 2, 1.
like Chapters
10, 9,
8, 7,
6, 5,
The Revelation
of Jesus
Christ which
God gave
to him
is nothing
other than
that. There
latter reign, and the to the
is one
which subject will prophets by is to
final
be a the
Christ according
why in Matthew 24
many shall
shall deceive -me skip over
forewarns of
my name them that
CLINT: Now,
false prophets,
am Christ, shall say
saying I if they
many,
wait, let
me, let
here. You're
in Matthew
--
f92
*5 Ow
MR. KORESH: Twenty-four.
CLINT: -24.
25
_
Let me turn over there real
MR. KORESH:
sup
And what
verse are
you at,
Let me out of
Okey 1,
desolate in
listen to
Chapters 23,
the prophets,
because, you
right?
know,
Well, I
mean, if
you go
back
"Behold your
what --
house is
left unto
you desolate."
MR. KORESH:
Okay. All
right. Now,
in
Jesus went
out and
to them you,
verily I
say unto
here one
Has that
Oh, definitely.
happened yet,
Definitely.
though?
92
1
CLINT: No, no. I mean, do
U 26
you see an
analogy between
Do we have --
another temple
that need
be destroyed?
92....,p
MR. KORESH:
Well, instead
of getting
into
the theological
deciphering of
what Christ
is saying,
him while
of Olive.
telling upset. He
of the
this temple
know, this
Okay?
Verse 3, "And as he set upon
the Mount
of Olives
the disciples
came him
privately,
saying tell
be the
us, what
shall these
things be?
I mean, who do
What shall
they think
sign of
they coming?"
to destroy
CLINT: Yeah.
M. KORESH:
they? CLINT: No,
did
they didn't.
92~
/ 2.,
MR.
Well --
CLINT: And
-~'!5
get into
four where
he
cautions us
to take
MR. KORESH:
CLINT:
-that's
not just
a caution,
that's
a responsibility.
MR. KORESH: man deceive saying I shall hear
not troubled."
y
Yes, to For many the disciples shall come that no in my And you that you
Christian
name
be
I mean,
that's what
is, right?
CLINT: Um-hum.
MR. KORESH:
So all
these things
must come
to
pass, but
the end
is not
yet for
nation shall
rise
against nation,
be famines places.
kingdom against
and pestilences
kingdom. There
shall
and earthquakes
in different
CLINT: Okay.
Is,
is that
end drawing
near?
MR. KORESH:
troubled.
He says
but not
your heart
be
CLINT: No,
not troubled.
no. I
know. And,
and my
heart's
MR . KORESH: Right.
CLINT: You know, I mean, that's,
.I
/' .-
2e
drawing near is not a trouble to me.
but
wars and
things are
shall they kill you.
the beginning
deliver you You shall
of sorrows.
up to the afflicted of all
be hated.
Verse 9,
"Then
be hated
are to
my
namesake." Christians
one another."'
die for it, I shall hate mean, one
another."
it. And
accomplished everything
put on this earth
that you've
to accomplish.
MR. KORESH= about Christ. everything he Christ may set out CLINT: Yeah, everything his
the -MR. KORESH:
what we
question
accomplished
father set
No.
CLINT: That's
the
issue.
why,
'3
i
He's going to finish here's the thing. "And and shall
-.--an
it from
everyone breaking
cold. But
the Christians
shall endure
the end,
the same
shall be
saved." You've
got to
keep that
CLINT: I
old heart
agree,
going, right,
David.
Clint?
"And this
gospel of
preached in
and then
see the
all the
shall the
world for
end come.
a witness
When ye
desolation
abomination of
spoken of
place."
by Daniel
the Prophet,
standing in
the holy
CLINT: Okay.
you speak
interpret or
to attach to it,
you do you
When
of preaching
how do you
--
word you
we want
want
to put
whatever,
with it,
that's fine.
But
MR. KORESH:
Christ's resurrection,
Well, later
he reiterates
on, remember
over these
after
subjects. Then
they understood
a lot
of things But he
they tells
ministry before.
30
them "Who so readeth, let him understand." Now, that
was a
note put
in by did Daniel
words, what
n-'4
desolation? Well,
it, in First and
Thessalonians talks
will continue
on through
Corinthians, Ephesians,
know, even the Book
Galatians, Philippians,
of Revelation, all of
as in Revelation
14, the
and then
which be
this. "Then
the mountains."
Remember in John
woman at the well?
Christ was
talking with
the
CLINT: Where,
MR. KORESH: Matthew 24.
where are
We're here
you at
in Verses
now, David?
16 of
CLINT: Okay.
What I
was saying
was in
just to the
when Christ
was talking
CLINT: Sure
I do.
MR. KORESH:
He says
the time
is coming
to
1
deny us, when they that worship
but in
mu!
31
the father will worship
spirit and in truth. we? We Remember, we come up hither, right? have a Like
Galatians says,
Jerusalem which
is above,
which is
come not
him which
take anything
the field them with
of his
return back
house.
to those
And wonder
child and
suck in in the
flight You
still commands
then shall
be great of the
not since
ever shall
the beginning
be."
known or
MR. KORESH:
shortened. The"e
"And except
flesh be
those days
saved. But
shall be
for
should no
the elect's
sake, those
days
shall be
MR. KORESH= who are you, then Christ or is Christ, the elect? if any
Well,
question is shall say you lo, No one John the unto here's can say
now
it not." I mean
this
Baptist said
V
behold the lamb of CLINT: Well,
know,
-.
32
God, but who accepted have him it? saying, you we also
he.
MR. KORESH: I have what?
Iam
CLINT:
Iam
he. You
know, the,
the Lord
took responsibility
for who
he is.
MR. KORESH:
that finally got him CLINT: But MR. KORESH: had to run from city to
Exactly. And
crucified. he was willing to
that was
the point
because people
he came
and whence
were trying
front, he
to kill
says you
him. And
both know
finally,
who Iam
to the
miracles and
said yet
they believe
not.
CLINT: Do
Iunderstand what took
you feel,
place on
David, that
the 28th
I,
Do you
feel, notwithstanding
trying to MR. KORESH: kill you?
that situation,
that
people are
Well, see,
for here.
importance of
' CLINT: No. And, and David, the I'm withyou there, person so that Ican but
Ineed
to understand,
appreciate what
seals.
. /
1
MR. KORESH: Well, you me to you allow
V,
can't understand you the you're in Matthew the
33
dealing with.
24,
which is
this point shall arise show great
the only
right now,
person to
is that
really be
interest
in at
he forewarns
were possible
how come
very elect.
it's not?
have told
wherefor not
other
he's in the
chambers," In
CLINT: Have been tempted to reveal MR. KORESH: subject of the, the
who have
know, the
horse is
ages, the
the resurrection,
pale horse
the alters
to end
being the
the
be M
CLINT: Well, to have the various if we were to have, if that you've we were theologians, ones
studied with,
~~u
and yourself,
truth and MR. KORESH:
how does
one discern
by a teacher? truth
between the
is the
spirit of
all the
of their
prophets and
it perfectly
The
harmonizes all
testimonies together.
theory is - and
and
Uhhuh. No.
You see,
the seven
seals are
previews of
more in-depth
the foundation
realities spoken
of the world. And
of by
the prophets
last miracle
from
the only
to be
given to
is that
in
a time
great knowledge
increased, somebody
well, why
what the
kind of
looks at
And
of Jesus if anybody
prophecies, what
and what
they're going to be
CLINT: David,
an overall
understand the
do you
needs to
you can
view of
Revelations before
seven seals?
MR. KORESH:
No. One
has to
acknowledge
that
//5 .-
35
on the throne. That has to be the main
God sits
subject, and
that Christ
is their
lord and
savior. And
then when
QM
can reveal
these things,
able to, you provide view or and in
CLINT: Well,
your sharing
will you
give a or an
-- will idealistic
a overall
a futurist
of Revelations?
be, it will be word for
MR. KORESH:
by Christ right
of God,
all one
Father. It's
faith, one
Christ,
are they
receive redemption.
the east, also the Verse 27, coming of
lightning cometh
into the be. west, so
the Son
of man
Now, that'sclear. when there's lightning, plainly as gives his God can thunderings, and say, God
you come
up hither, as
voices. And
book to Christ
who is
Testament, the
seals.
New Testament
revolving around
the seven
David, how
long have
you been
1'
*
back from
2_
as
when I got
MR. KORESH:
Ever since
1985 is
Israel and
to open
up and
thoroughly bring
5-'1 are.
to men
of what
these seals
CLINT: Are,
MR. KORESH:
are you
NO.
tired, David?
CLINT: No?
Okay.
Imean,
you're, you're --
I hear
-- it's
your voice,
--
sometimes
it goes
into what
to me
is
MR. KORESH:
Don't, don't --
a little
chilly.
CLINT: It
either sounds
condescending or
he making
me answer
these. And
answer --
if
questions you
MR. KORESH:
don't want to
No, no.
that's fine
with me.
Okay?
You're being
too cautious,
CLINT: No, voice, David. Iwant MR. KORESH: you're probably sitting
but there.
it's cold
CLINT: No.
a matter
the air
conditioning is
on.
Okay.
Q
CLINT: But what Iwant
<.~ 1'
you to understand,
that -I,
Iwant
MR. KORESH:
Well, Clint
--
no dishonesty
in my
voice.
Mark, Luke,
nobody ever
and John,
interrupts him
you notice
until he
how in
the scripture
stops talking?
thing about
Judaism that's unlike Judaism, just like in to hear after and then the a
world. In
states, you
know, that
we are
they're to make a
on what
so debative.
will interrupt
I'll begin
me
way most
well,
theologians
what does this
it's not
guy really
teach? CLINT: Well, it becomes though. You whether know, Then it Imean, we
a speech,
the President
~
_
QQ
make a speech and CLINT: Okay.
v--Q!
- /=
3a
said and something is know, like
be it
can ask
share, David,
a question
and when
I teach,
or any
other course if
I'll tell
because
need. And
that or on people
if I
can give to do
are going
and I
was about
a day-and-a-half
of the Korean
into
National, member
military, raises
his hand
and he
says is
this the
bomb
disposal class?
to that. And I
anything close
I just --
Korean, he
said, you
know, it
nothing whatsoever
ever asked
before he
the question.
So I
if, if your
guess that'swhy I
revert back
to -
And
you
way of sharing
is different
than that,
>
the way
that Iim
used to
in that
The same
years ago
that dealt
with political
knowledge of
tradition that But today And so,
sociological format.
required men that's not to, to
You know,
listen, you of our talking to
it was
see.
the
for instance,
explains in the
as
east shines
will be.
world, that's
his convent
to come. the
Verse 28
Father's name
forehead. But
Christ states
"For wheresoever
the
carcass is,
there
will the
eagles be
Now, whatever
1! as
it is. He knows what the carcass is. He knows who the
40
verse that is Verse we're going bring to 29 of Matthew 24, the sixth because seal of
that verse
those days
darkened and
stars
heavens
give her
the powers
light and
of the
the
shall
shall be
heaven and
CLINT: Okay,
End of Tape #230.!
that
takes us
back --
'
92 .
y
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY
BUREAU OF
ALCOHOL, TOBACCO
& FIREARMS
~44
TAPE #231
4/15/93
8:17 P.M. -9:04 P.M.
O
Tape 231!
DAVID: could
to do altar
~.-4 CLINT: Um-hum.
G
the fifth
are souls
2
under the
eeel be something
with -.
a carcass?
If there
in the remain a
fifth seal
long
the carcass
fifth seal?
of Matthew
And if
be something
what about
with the
the lightning
third, second
is coming
and first
pertaining to
seals?
the fourth,
CLINT: Okay,
when we move from the fifth
but what
to the
happens, David,
sixth seal? What's
then
the responsibility
of the
sixth seal,
place according
has to
fellow servants?
take
DAVID; Fellow
CLINT: Yes.
servants?
are
know, if
it's
necessary that
brethren that
they should
be killed as
they were
should
I I
I3
be, as they were should be fulfilled. So what or Habakkuk what first of Iam does the or Zephaniah trying to all to prophet or establish acknowledge
that
Christ Do you
what must
in a
be after
way different
knew
Christ. in the
agree? He
knew him
flesh and
spirit. Do
you agree?
CLINT: DAVID CLINT DAVID CLINT DAVID
what I'msaying?
Ido.
Okay.
Yeah.
So in other
words, if
he knew
Christ
both in
ascend to visions, he
the flesh
heaven states
and if
in the that wheh
he really
spirit and
did
in the
spirit
awesome again it will
be like
west. And
lightning from
he also states that
to the
have to be an
to prophets are
here
is just
with is
Before the
darkened, there
are to
be the
gathering of
the eagles
| .,~, *92 4
to the
carcass. Now
that carcass
does not
have to
be a
It can
be a live
person. I teach? If
the prophets
let's turn to
Isaiah 40.
CLINT: Okay,
DAVID: Because
just a
moment.
Isaiah was told to
you know,
seal his
book amongst
CLINT: Just,
the disciples.
just a second. Mine is not
tabbed, so
I have
to work
through. Work
through my
dog-eared pages
DAVID
:You'll - Isaiah
probably get
40.
there before
me
so laughing!
CLINT DAVID CLINT DAVID
: :Are
41 yet?
:I'm
:Can
you speak
up a
little bit
louder,
Clint?
CLINT DAVID CLINT DAVID CLINT
: David,
I'm at
37 and
rising -at.
:Okay. : Okay.
:NOW :I'm -at
-- okay.
I'm at
Isaiah 40,
chapter 1.
DAVID
:Okay.
Now notice
the message
of
comfort to
saith your
OO
Lord.
'
5
verses 10,
hand.
DAVID: Right.
behold, the
92 .-Q1
Lord God
will come
Right?
CLINT: Um-hum.
DAVID: His
arm shall
rule for
him: behold,
his reward
is with
him, and
his work
before him.
Okay,
so,
so in similarity
we see
in the
last chapter
me.
of Revelation
n
than the
word of
of his
work, okay?
seal the it not
His work
144,000 with
before him.
the seal of the to those
feed his
If Christ
comes to
will
have to
be according
He shall
Verse 11.
he going-to
shall gather
the lambs
carry them
that are
in his
with young. Well, the
bosom, and
shall gently
lead those
to see he says
of his
magnitude of
measured the
what this
water in
mean
how deep
is this
truth going
to be?
Meted out
heaven
with the
span, and
comprehended the
dust of
the earth
O
in a measure,
the hills in
I6
and weighed
a balance?
the mountains
in scales,
and
And are
Who --
we talking
--
-- the
Hello?
fifth angel
here then?
Are, are
angel at
we into
the same
the fifth
time? now, what
angel? We
talking the
fifth
DAVID:
Well, remember
we're
forward to?
the carcass.
talked about
came 2,000
years ago
he was
a
into the
like anybody
here that
we find
-- of,
in
Wait. Wait,
wait. Isaiah
40,
Verse 30.
It says
even the
youths
shall
utterly
faint and
fall: But
be weary,
they
and the
that wait upon
young men
shall
shall
the Lord
J!
OD
renew their
eagles; they
I7
strength; they
shall run,
will mount
and not
up with
wings as
weary, be
weary; and
they shall walk, and faint. I mean not who are these
--I
eagles as
Matthew 24? CLINT: And does this take place after the
sixth seal
is opened? DAVID: Absolutely CLINT: When DAVID: What does it not. take place? when he who will before.
ask one
to come up the
see something
of your term? Or
flock
in there
with use?
'
that
what term
DAVID: Well,
to
CLINT: Okay.
DAVID: -pastoral term anyway. CLINT: All of your flock based right. If, upon the you feel if teachings we are Iwere that David in time? If to ask one has one you know, that's, that's a
provided you,
where do
has a
time line,
and you
time lines.
know, to
and understanding
92
OO
God's time different. But
where do
q.-~i
8
times it, were to
we are
line. Many if I
on the
of the
where we're
DAVID: David's
CLINT: Now see,
right here
that's, that's
they'll say.
the -I
use the that your giving them their mind say what
T.
Well,
AB
what they --
would tell
opposed to
well, that's
true, Clint,
but
to deferring let me
that.
Clint. The,
the
to
man's opinion.
him into a little
and put
L -i
9 teaches.
the Lutherans
or Presbyterians.
We're not
CLINT: --
DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: Okay. challenge.
DAVID: In, in itself
And even
then in
itself
--
one man
who is
of
in Chapter He says
independent. Let let them come near, to judgment. the his foot,
us come
near together
Here's the question. Who righteous man from the east, called
raised up him to
gave the
nations before
Now the angel from
him, made
him rule
over kings.
is is ar
8
going to going to
obvious. These
Most people
theological world
understanding
CLINT:
already have
-Yeah.
somewhat, they
feel, an
OO
God is
-..-A
I DAVID:
the rock.
-- of Scripture like
If we are to say that and how
in Isaiah 28.
we know they will the be
fulfilled in
seal number testament of
the latter
one and
days,
we have
to begin
and exhaust seal.
with
the
you feel,
David, do
you believe,
would you
out to
like to
see your
and share
flock have
the ability
to go
all nations
you? I
DAVID: Well, is where what the only judge think the again people subject is, us by gospel is CLINT: Now they're going trying to not being their narrow supposed to you told limit in aware of perception of do. me earlier, down. But first felt David, and how long the that I to. But see this
what they
when you
DAVID: I
CLINT: No,
didn't study
when were
this.
the seals first
revealed to
pertaining to
up and
the seals
which is
in for
the Bible
its presentation.
was opened
thoroughly locked
,_
Q
That's what makes me different from
Q 11
the rabbis in
Israel who oh, say David, you need to learn Hebrew, you
know?
mi
you know,
what, you
me ask a question,
continue to move on
David, okay?
and continue
And to
to hear
If in
first
have felt
to commit
your knowledge, .
your understanding
You know,
this, if the knowledge
one, my
question, if
increased but
you've had
the
has not
paper --
I've
been I first
what I
have supposed
met a
opposition. Why?
where did
Within, within
no, no, no. No,
no.
CLINT: Okay.
that
._
Q
opposition -~
Q 12
DAVID: No. The first opposition came when
and people see what I to teach the subjects,
we began
wad
teach.
CLINT: Well,
why would
people be
opposed to
l
a question? you and I say you what do I can How get want you
time before
feel about
this, David?
you think
say is
states --
CLINT:
know a person
-you
know, you
take in what
have to,
they say.
you have
You
to
before you
know, one
be to
scripturally
unless you
CLINT: No.
doctrine.
_
DAVID: And
hear. This is the, if you look at
unless you
to say. he was a In
Christ going
into the
temple,
00
Christ is
earth. The
5-
13
he was the, the biggest dog that walked the face of the
anything to do with God. On the contrary.
that are
in
I mean
and John.
it's very
Matthew,
they were
Christ was
if Christ
to wear
What do
a robe?
we
have long
might be
we know to be. For the seven
CLINT: Yeah,
but also,
you know,
I have
to
and
to be
understand, you
have discernment
you have
person is
before you
to penetrate
the folds
of your be there in
to
seed there
that shouldn't
DAVID: Well,
remember
that if
there's any
seed to
be planted,
Christ is
the
seed sower.
And
1!. 1"
remember that after I
yourself.
,4-0
14
looking at the first seal in Revelation, the book that, you've still got
expand on
I have
first come
never taken
and that
any student
that have
out.
not
and heard
And they
have to
go, and
they have
to talk
scholars. You the key that opens man can shut it.
mind of
once it'sopened no
just don't have a
their own.
bear
with me.
know, I
You know
who Margaret
Mead is?
CLINT: And
she in
South America
one time
or
in the
South Pacific
And she it was
I should
say was
on a
small island
such a
would, you
similar to
would bring
a flock
the village
or, you
know,
of people,
you would
bring them
92.
and to
i15
they would in the all sit in a circle. And then group would have the point of what they opportunity to view on had to a topic. say and present their would say
And then
then would
this person
sit down.
a question,
the one
a question,
simply contemplate
next person would
chance to
talk. And
they
group where
each the
would have
that. And
do something like
it's just,
society really
doesn't, really
today because
tradition
that we've
of times
in my,
in my
presentations I
and to
before you
them. And
know it,
after about
sit there
to
they
30 minutes,
finally realize
CLINT:
I'm notsaying nothing. You know, then with with, in -and I guess of the
there'sa lot
' >
O
background on okay let's, the seals
s.-4
O 16
this seals. I mean one just can't say and you know, got let's go through Revelations here. You
quick, we'll
YOU ' QOIIZO . I8
45-minute study
on Revelations
It can
be.
You can
It can
It can
carry it
be.
--
from here.
If it's in the
hands of
the right
teacher it
Well --
into Revelations
to paper
opportunity before
that's because
DAVID: Well,
direction
like
Iwas
telling negotiators.
Ihave
a commander.
Remember.
we all
do.
Imean
you're, you're saying not Ihave, Ihave I work DAVID: Well, a commander for here.
than anybody
my father
is different
so far
everyone
QO
else's father in heaven. I mean I know what Ireceive
1'
they have
I know
because I
can show
doctrine. Not
clearly. And
once.
gainsaid my
They said
said that Isacrifice
that
I'm a child
molester. They've
said that we
babies. They
They say
that we
everything they
can say.
stop me
of the life, life
or
into the
false light
CLINT: well,
definition, David.
where one man's child
Life
is a trip
through definition
Imean what age was
molest --
Mary when
she was
impregnated? What
does Scripture
age was
say?
she?
-
DAVID: What
you.
know. Iwas --
CLINT= I
mean if,
if you
look
at the
age
that Mary
what, 13. 12 and
was and
She was 14. And
then one
13 at
could say
the time
well, she
was
between if
.!
00
you say well, that's the case. Or maybe she was older
18
know, I, I'm going to have to look back
--
I can in fact
women were
how old
considered ripe
live in
at the
Biblical times,
time because
35, 33
what,
--
did one
DAVID: Well,
be 80's and 90's
CLINT:
no. They,
they lived
over to
and 100's.
Well --
lot of
scholars that
a lot
of people
take it
as there's
really isn't.
a lot of theologians about the Bible.
You know,
of things
more books
Bible than
with knowledge
CLINT: Sure.
of the
DAVID: So
you get
into
youknow,
a
to prove
it. They
going to
deal
person to eye,
to me ear, word
John saw,
based for
a
upon straight
word. If
the first
seal pertains
19
---1
he goes conquering conquer, when forth of the a person says well, I think that thatmeans this that I'm or going to listen tothem. And I'm going them to say to well, would liketo hear you what Ibelieve. If they want to listen, thenI'llwell, what believeis say I
that only the Lambcan reveal this.
you
the mystery of
* '1
>l ",
The alleged
miracles were believe. So done 2,000 today, when
20
cannot be deceived. Because
they would is going not to be
when
totally contrary,
mi
then Thessalonians
delusions that
says that
they they loved shall
God will
damned because
to know
not the
truth
the truth,
the whole
and nothing
but the
The revelation
truth. And
of Christ
it? The
please help
that pertains
us, God.
to the
Christ that
first seal,
what is
revelation of
the second
is it? a lot
we
songs here.
see the
angel who
you and
me. Seven
And it
The sound
of life.
goes I
You know,
want to
know, I
want to
life.
know, seven
thunders.
it's the
And so
sound of
where that
foundation is
Psalms 11
says if
glass, if
that foundation
be destroyed,
the waters
earth, if
if
that sea
like
of
we can'twalk on
on the waters on
in safe
Peter walked
we can't come
we can'tsee in
Christ about
honesty
the man
first seal,
on the white horse
' 1
N I.
is something foundation of we need to know, then we've lost the Luke and John, Romans, Matthew, Mark,
21
Ephesians, we
to full
Acts, Corinthians,
~40
have failed
somewhere.
David. Do
you, do
you believe
and, and
in the
Scriptures where
find it if we need
I'll, I'll
to, but
where the
apostles had
authority and
established that?
validity and,
DAVID: Surely.
power. Paul also in says in Galatians, man. CLINT: Or
seen Christ also?
They establish
know, like you the in power.
it by
Paul words of
the
says
wisdom after
did they
establish
it by
having
DAVID: Well,
the thing
of
it is,
Paul had
not really
the flesh. funny how prolific apostle given
actually seen
But he it is and zealous
Christ and
him
believed in
in the
him in
believed of of all
how out
writer of
he's a gentile. CLINT: Well, how, how did Paul see Christ?
So he
saw him
in
a vision.
the church
Q O
have not followed -he's talking to the church. He when we,
mi
22
made known unto you the power of
his coming,
but we
We were
were eyewitnesses
on the Mount,
of his majesty.
of
the Mount
Transfiguration. We
heard a
voice in
most excellent
glory saying
pleased. But word of
this
is my
beloved son
says we
who am well
have also a more sure
then Peter
prophecy. CLINT: Hey, have you, how you have you establish your established in a discussed
Well, remember,
my authority
is
different than
David?
DAVID: Well,
their power giving of from Christ the gifts
again, the
through the from Christ.
apostles receive
sacrifice and Right? True? the
CLINT: Go
DAVID: And spirit of earth with pertaining to
what must
ahead. Yes,
through that relayed it in testimony when John
is that
it is.
power, the to the of the eternal church on future events says
the
the Revelator
sit on
God must
00
throne, and God
23
must give will come the question can reveal the book with this to the Lamb. And he reward that church on church remains what the seven by the
the Lamb
says he
received, then
xaf
the church
CLINT
spoken of Well, I,
reveal that,
Well --
Idon'tknow that
David.
there
is a
church that
can
DAVID CLINT DAVID
Christ indiscernible!
--
-- there's a people
of doubt.
here that
know
beyond shadows
CLINT .DAVID
is there
a --
well if
-trying
that'sthey're what
to tell
you.
CLINT
No, David,
are you
saying that
your
flock believes
the identity of
DAVID CLINT DAVID CLINT DAVID
or your,
your flock
Is
believes they
that what --
have
that person.
Exactly.', '
--
is that
what you're
saying? you.
you.
They're telling
CLINT
you. No,
I'm not
come to
. F
'-92._
' 24
that's, that's why I wanted to
to the speak to
DAVID: But
-..-4
my authority
it be.
in the
I'm a man
flesh is
like you.
not
respected and
nor should
If you
look at can teach
was to
that guy
see me in Wal-Mart,
over there. seven -I bet that would
I think
one of --
Hey, I
me the
if
I, I
think if, by my
if you works. of it
knew me,
if
you don't
judge according Christ warned And if of God, in Romans. another? You you'll escape righteous revelation Now in
is asked. And that
do. Judge
men don't know the righteous fail to understand what who art same things. thou that
then they
He says
judgment of
Christ?
God? The
of God
is
ready to church is
And the
hope of
the Christian
O 25
one another by their works. Of course, there are
hope of to them
of
come a grace
the revelation
at the
Jesus Christ.
And so
those who
know to
fight for
the unity
judging one
looking
when Christ
the knowledge
in
days, they
Do you Iknow
On a --
It's not a feeling. Okay, David. a continuum as the last days? you see you, you What is On a, on
can you
function on
on that continuum
this question.
knowledge of
the first
back again.
to the -Okay.
And I've
and as you
say --
92
9 0
DAVID:
26
If you'll show me that, then You see? And then, I'll and then the seals. hoping that, are in the But regards to you that I was
show you
what Isee.
Isaid
in the
tape to
would receive,
seals
CLINT:
none of
you all
are the
Well, I
mean Ibelieve
my name
is
written in
there.
DAVID: CLINT:
there.
DAVID: CLINT: DAVID: CLINT: book. DAVID: CLINT: DAVID:
-- you
I -Wait a
Ido
know. I,
I--
Iknow
my name is written
in the
don't know -know that. Clint, the is your Yeah. first seal name there? Where's your is a
man on
Now where on a
sets of
The second
name there?
red horse.
books.
There's two
CLINT:
No,
man on
the
horse has
anything to
of life.
do with
Idon't
my name written
--
in the
Lamb's book
DAVID:
Yeah, but
you see
--
0 27
CLINT DAVID-
-- really
-- the
think so,
David.
contains
92 -$4
the seven
seals
CLINT DAVID
Where, where
does it
say that
so I
--
Well, right
there in
Revelation,
chapter 6.
CLINT DAVID CLINT
Let me
get to
that. Revelations
92 i
Okay. Okay.
Now you
see what
Iwant is
so you Iwant
can to
better understand
92
first
what you
Iwant
you to
have learned
and
way Ican
if
Ibelieve it's
in the,
you say
5 where,
contains the
. 2a
names of all those --
you've been
everywhere
rename my
John. There's
John
is a
a revelation
of Jesus
in Chapter
Okay?
5, verse 1.
hand of
God.
other words,
it's amystery. No
one in heaven
knows
what's init. No
thereon. You see?
one's been
capable to
even look
So when
Iused
to go
to certain
ministerial
know, I
would this is
ask a
ministers preach
name is written in
wait a
you
Igo
do
minute. The
know? Well,
Well, no,
This book
says it contains in
contains just
chapter 6,
what the
verse 1.
Scripture
Christ opens
the first
seal just
like on
a letter.
You open
the
hr
I
seal. You open it up. And the
I29
subject pertains to
behold a white
him had
.4
horse. Verses
A crown and to
2. iAnd
he that
sat on
went
a bow.
to him,
and he that's a
you ask
But I
take away
what you're
saying. But
to me, it's
an interpretation.
Because I
book. And
But I
believe my
it
says it's not. And not, Idon't want to give that DAVID: Okay,
know, again
I'm
I'm not
willing to
well, let
me, let
me make
it
this way.
see over
Let me state
here in CLINT: In DAVID: Yeah,
it
this way
-- okay.
then. Okay?
We
chapters 21 -- you
point blank
this
is where
God makes
is God heaven and
a new
00
and first
30
passed away and there
sea.
earth were
was no
more
CLINT: Yes.
~....4
I
John, saw the holy city, new
DAVID: I,
Jerusalem, coming
as a bride adorned
down from
for her
God out
husband.
of heaven,
prepared
And I
saying, Behold, he will
and God
heard a great
the tabernacle them, and
be with
voice out
of God they shall
them, and
of heaven
is with be his
be their
dwell with
himself shall
nor crying,
the former things
neither shall
are passed
there be
away.
any more
pain:
for
And he
I make
these words
that sat
new. And
upon the
he said
throne said,
unto me,
Behold,
write, for
all things
are true
and faithful.
It
is done. end. I
of the
the beginning
of the
unto
is athirst
fountain
life
freely. He that overcometh shall inherit and he shall be all things; my son.
and I
will be
his God,
fearful, and
and all
31
the lake
which burneth
with fire
and brimstone,
which
is the
second death.
Now we see here in chapters
t
20 the event.
Q--~14
I saw
an angel
This and a
1. Having
in his He laid hold
the key
hand. on the
dragon, that
old serpent,
which is
years.
the Devil,
and Satan,
and bound
him a
thousand
And cast
him into
the bottomless
pit, and
shut him
deceive the
were fulfilled
little season.
up, and
set
a seal
more,
upon him,
till the
must be
that he
should
nations no
and after
thousand years
loosed a
that he
And I
saw thrones,
and they
sat upon
them,
and judgment
them that
was given
unto them
for the
and I
witness of
saw the
Jesus
souls of
and
were beheaded
for the
word of
God, and
which had
not worshipped
the
mark
thousand years.
lived not This again is the
until the
first resurrection.
thousand years
holy on such
is he
that hath
part
in the no
the second
death hath
00
power, but they shall be priests unto God and of
32
the thousand out of go out years are the prison. and deceive of the the nations earth, Gog and expired,
Satan shall
battle, the
number of
of the
And they
and compassed beloved city
and devoured
went up
of the
on the
breadth of
the earth,
and the
came down
out of
heaven,
And the
devil that
deceived them
was cast
into the
lake of
fire and
brimstone, where
the beast
shall be
tormented day
saw --
CLINT: We,
then, right? DAVID: Well,
CLINT: Okay.
we ned
to jump
forward to
12
there.
DAVID: And
him that sat on it, from
I saw
a great
white throne,
the earth and
and
whose face
heaven fled
found no
place for
them. stand
saw the
before God
and the
books were
another book
!
33
which is of those
of life
and the
were written
CLINT:
According to
now there
the --
there we
I mean that, that
have men
being judged
gives
not
a
gives, that
you're
be
see, the
you, and
the names Christ.
the other
of all
prophets
those who have
my, my
name can
be written
on
book being
the
name can
pages of
opened. it says here,
without the
verse 15,
of life
and who
was cast
written in fire.
the book
CLINT: Absolutely.
those who believe that and have
And if
the works
my belief
for
is for
which
they will
be judged
that our
names will
be written
on
Q
that book.
34
DAVID: Okay. So what happens is,
in the -my name is already
is when
the Lamb
L --1
who is
to be
judgment
receives the
written on
that book.
when I
I believe,
You know,
I don'tbelieve, I
that's not a belief.
That's not
a thought.
know it.
DAVID: Okay. reveal the know the you an seven seals, seven seals, understanding ~CLINT: Okay. seven seals opened prior DAVID: In
ever has a chance to
Imean
I'm here to
not the
earth
received
he is the
father judges son that father. a part of the the Lamb man
no
should honor
experience of to come
those who
is
and judge
the gentiles
the Jews
were to
as
be judged. The only difference is 2,000 years ago the
But in to be
the time
of the
end when
much 11 and
knowledge is 12 tells
increased as be directed
-Bible --
us, we
are to
knowledge.
CLINT: --
where does
it tell
us, David,
in
will come
to write
it says
that you
CLINT: So
how does
that then
give
justification to
with a greater
one coming
interpretation or
and producing
overview of
a manuscript
the seals?
DAVID: Well,
is a witness to. It's to what is the
with me. ~ Now father is the reward
remember, what
not an he was
John has
written
John And My
.
final testament
his
the book
with seven
only can
properly reveal
what the
seven seals
are?
Well, you
know the
144,000 will
be sealed
with this
Q
seal. They seals. And
east.
Q 36
will they receive the do so by the knowledge of angel who the seven sends from the
~.-4
his comes,
clear, it's
he comes
book it's
according to
written of
Psalms 40.
me. Let's
In the
turn to
volume of
Psalms 40
the
with
of David, -CLINT:
how it
states
Well, how,
how do
from the
sealing
DAVID:
a seal
truth of
God's word
And those
receive a
knowledge of
the work
that God
is
CLINT:
don't, you know, I right here have -dog-eared pages without adding in these
mean I old --
have the
truth of
DAVID: CLINT:
looking at
right
DAVID:
here without,
So did
the Pharisees.
You search
the
Scriptures daily And they Even if law, you testify you were of yourself
cannot fulfill
Christ can
fulfill the
law for
you.
Q,V that wayyou canbe saved grace. And ' 37by I And
you don't have to stand in the judgment next to the
law. You
Christ. ~..-an
stand
in the
judgment by
the righteousness
of
And so Christ to the seven Christians and body the way the
there's one last righteousness And that it will is he gather all only can the true
of reveal
true saints
together into
one
it's supposed to be. church and that church There's not there. position of says this is one
So I'm going not saying well, and Luke. within itself. see the what they seals. And think about CLINT: Well, right, David, but they DAVID: No, I think No. You
God, the
they, they
have a
don't have a responsibility. but I do. That's why I live. seem to actions be
That's why I'm here. That's whymy actions so adverse should be. to what I mean, CLINT: Yeah, again? You know, what, a lot of people -going back the authority? think my
to authority
who has
>
Q r0
DAVID: We're going back to the chain of
:8
l
has the authority.
to make
DAVID:
-the
divine credentials
every man
prophecy you
take away
cannot add
the testament CLINT: Let
your opinions,
that's there. me -David,
and you
cannot
let me
ask you
this.
Would you
one would authorities that
say your
say what
what is
opinion of of your
-what
your flock
opinion if
of the do
complex? What
they represent?
is there Babylon? _ a teaching
Do --
is there,
is there
an opinion
or
provided that
this represents
DAVID: Well,
contrary to God's word.
Babylon
is anything
that's
-agree?
CLINT: Why
authorities, why find the, agent, I contrary to you know,
would you
think that
the
why would and as you an FBI
my responsibility
DAVID: Well,
you would not be
if you
were an
the FBI.
apostle, then
You'd be out
working for
. 92
T
39
ministering like
Paul the
I, I
apostle.
can do both though. I can
CLINT: Well,
minister --
DAVID: Well,
~..@
not really.
within the context of my
CLINT: --
still agent.
carry out
my what
I'm supposed
DAVID: Well,
now, Clint
--
CLINT: No, that I've spent years, saying if supposed to want to give up nothing
was told
to understand, as an FBI
field, I
I'd
mean
quickly move
that. But
out into
I'm in a field.
if
I'm in a
mission field
a -_
but did I
require
me
I've not been told things, and told stay And, and go out where you
Turn all
you
are.
pa,
40
do.
of your
David, is
complex. You
I think
know what,
what
bothers me,
sometimes there's,
there's a we
the branch,
against us
where your
type of
flock is
mentality here
the we,
where
and everybody
outside of
your flock
that's not
that you
talk about
is taking
that
'
place. And
I don't think it
think actions
have caused
certain measures
to be
done.
DAVID: Exactly. outside the jumped back door, and inside the CLINT: All
DAVID: Another
CLINT: -DAVID: --
day I
was
was I
elderly gentleman
if -next to me was shot dead.
--
CLINT: If,
DAVID: Now
if I
that was
was in -a mistake.
okay -We
forgave -CLINT: If I was in your position, I would want I was in your would as to bring position, David, a Christian, the situation, as a number if
believer, I
xx
I
one, to the world's attention so DAVID: They're
-I
Q 41
they could hear going to.
into man's court and
DAVID: Clint,
nonetheless --
But
CLINT: What's
-- no,
David. See
now that
--
okay. That
bothers me
DAVID: Well
---
when you
hear honesty
and you
DAVID: You're calling it you're moving right back Bnd of tape 231.! --
honesty. But
<5
1.-~41
U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF THE
TREASURY
BUREAU OF
ALCOHOL, TOBACCO
8 FIREARMS
TAPE #232
4/15/93
9:04 P.M. 9:51 P.M.
3 0
Tape 23
2
CLINT: Well, so am I, David. You know, I, DAVID: So are we going back to the
I --
<11
negotiation
part
-I --
CLINT: No,
DAVID: --
or we
going back
to the
fear of
God? '
CLINT: -let's say I'm saying -I'm,
you can
do some
upon your
negotiator, I
discernment in
my voice
me so far.
DAVID: Well,
in the voice in respect everything that
here. And
according what
I'm saying.
Then let's
have respect
to God.
CLINT: So,
. ":~ -
. 1
O3
get caught up in titles, okay? Let's --
I like
-- I'ma carpenter.
what
DAVID: I
build houses.
I like
to build
CLINT: Well
--
DAVID: I
in the world.
things we
do
okay, and,
furniture before.
DAVID: Praise
the Lord,
so?
you know,
first, you
we can
say, you
know, as far as
know, I
I'm
DAVID: Exactly.
and we see God on the throne.
book to
interested in.
the Lamb.
Okay? Now
know, I,
I have
authorities
i
there are
"0
your complex have, and yet I draw a very both, because who want see the to resolve between the mission of out here many Christians
this positively
xi
Lord's hand on
this situation
DAVID: But
who are not Christians
that there
And because
are many
--
CLINT: Well,
I mean
let's talk
about the
know, if,
how many
if you
want to
are
take
FBI agents
hands. Does
that do
you know,
have two
different
I understand
you're saying
And you,
man's clock, to punch to bring it to
the authorities
out
to
the courts
that understanding,
when each
going to
time I
felt so
positive when
because I really saw
you said
it's
be resolved,
the Lord's
, J }
intervention and
and let'sget it
is 0
saying good,
on, okay?
God,
and let's
get it
92-~-QC
resolved in
and in
shroud of
me as
a positive
the eyes
the Lord
nature, non-violently,
protection
takes place.
on one
in
the courts
and the
And for
when it
the reluctance
a Christian
part I
say he
has to
wait for
the other
giving honor
flock has
part I
say is
this given,
to the
is this
situation
each of your
and glory
to stand
Lord? And
Lord and
before the
account for
this
and account
for whether
you've givenhonor
Lord.
from the
I want
to see
that
take place.
see the want to the Branch stand. done. You see
accountability, I
want to
and I of
DAVID: And
to get
I bring
the first
up the
day of
realities that
the assault
CLINT: But
DAVID: Wait
92 4/
'
CLINT: and today. We're intoi --
a Christian
reality and
a worldly
reality.
DAVID: wait a minute.
this, this
rising now.
is as
true
--
CLINT:
and as
strong. And
this is
as
cutting, David,
There are
right now.
with, and
two realities
need to
And you
and everybody
have brought
shame upon
have brought
honor. God's
word is
takes like
the most
honorable thing
ago the
in heaven.
son of God to
Even if
be
it
2,000 years
crucified. we
No, we don't.
happen today,
do we?
You see,
the Constitution,
this great
but it
nation stands
on not
just
on
stands on
bylaws. Stands
you
say the
prophets had
an opinion,
would
.5
say well,
CLINT: And,
that one can only
and there,
there are
on. And
some things
there are knowledge.
some things
that one
ascribe divine
the prophets.
the gift
of discernment.
And I
have to
can we person is
turn to
Psalms 40 and
who this
a minute.
[939]
say 14
or 40?
CLINT: Forty.
DAVID: Well,
Okay. Where
the Psalm.
at in
40?
We don't want to
Q 8
take it to pieces. I mean, you know, that's where most
~--0
CLINT: I,
and he inclined unto DAVID: Now
I waited
me, and is this
patiently for
heard my cry.
the Lord;
David talking,
or is
it
of a
horrible rock.
upon a
CLINT: Which
that we have to stand on.
is the
word. which
is prophecy
DAVID: And
Christ taken
been? The
established my
a pit, the worst
tomb. was
goings. Well,
pit that's
God set
was
ever
- did
out of
crucifixion. The
Christ set
God his
himself upon
father?
a rock?
Is God
the rock?
Is
CLINT: Yeah,
but is
this talking
about
Christ, or
is this
talking about
= find out.
David's life
put upon
established his
a rock,
did the
father give
had put
him a
a new song
goings? He
in my
a new
mouth. In
song --
Revelation, does
it not
say they
sing
CLINT: Sing
DAVID: -before
a new
song.
the throne?
,._
.0David. '
CLINT: Sure.
We sing
that every
0 9
Sunday,
it. What
will they
the
seven seals?
And fear,
Blessed is
and shall
that man
Lord.
his
that maketh
trust, and
aside to
respecteth not
lies. Now it's true God one that is to
the proud,
nor such
as turn
a throne.
It's
Anything contrary
to that
is
a lie.
H Many,
which thou ward: they if I
would declare
of them,
they are
than can
be numbered.
Who only
can reveal
what Christ
has to
reveal in
the seven
Sacrifice and
offering thou
thou opened:
hast not
burnt offering
and sin
then what does
required. Well
said I,
lo, I of me.
is written
92 '92 _92' .
0 10
sometime after, hereafter.
CLINT: And
a Christian,
ea-n
see what
let
my responsibility
me take you back
is as
to 40,
David, let,
verse
aside to
4 again
lies.
where we
talk about,
nor such
as turn
DAVID: Exactly.
and to
me lies are
false
CLINT: Okay?
determine false man, we
And I
have to
be able
to
a
teachings. And
when -and
have certain
capabilities. And
these are
measure the can hear his
very small.
word of words. And
But part
a man
of what
we do
who he
is, is
is, so I you
and whether
want to
you know,
hear this,
I look
David, or
to strike
whether you
that balance
believe in
that I have to
it,
between Christianity
DAVID: Well,
and responsibility.
sure.
balance
DAVID:
teaches the seven
-you
seals before
know how
to judge
a man
who
he even
teaches them,
:' .92_
,92__,<_;" right?
I'm saying that is
~44
9292 .~ H
Q
needs to
w
know the man
11
doctrine. Because
father's. '
his doctrine
verse 9,
have
comes to
then he of this truth.
seals in
with
comes to
CLINT: No,
where they were, David.
DAVID: Exactlyu
but, but
Christ also
met people
CLINT: He,
he met
them exactly
where they
--
he didn't care if
collector or a whore
they were
a taxpayer
it was,
or a
he met
tax
them
or whatever
where they
were and
dealt with on a
them at
that level.
level that
they would
understand him.
never conformed to the wishes
people of he would
his day.
They tried
to make hated
him a him.
They tried to
get him
they wanted
5, !
and he
ld not.
He made himself of
no reputation.
12
the people
right now,
you a prophecy
this one.
in fulfillment.
89.
It's Psalms
you say
that tongue-incheek,
or
- look.
Sighing.!
you know,
I --
there -
I, I I
you know,
I'm herefor
DAVID: Are
you here
to
learn the
seals?
I think this
is what
is something
the
that'shere. Christ
is the
root and
covenant about his
offspring of
that he
David. Now
reveals in here. He
son Christ
come through
his
kingdom in
out what
happens.
Says I
will sing
of the
mercies of
the Lord
92
, 9292
V
13
if O
forever: with faithfulness to shall be
92~
my mouth
will I
make known
my Mercy
thou shalt
built up in the
establish
faithful than
I have
made a covenant
I establish
thy throne
shall praise in the
generations.
O Lord: saints.
The
thy wonders,
thy faithfulness
And it's true. The
also
congregation of
received Christ.
heavens have
heavens have
book that
I have
right in
DAVID: Exactly. be compared mighty can Noah. Not the prophets. to the be likened Moses. Not Nor even, God is greatly of the
that are
For who
in the
any of
feared in
assembly
all them
saints, and
about him.
to be
O Lord
reverence of
of hosts,
who is
a strong
like unto
faithfulness round
rainbow.
What's
Thou rulest
the raging
of the
sea:
when the
92/rs
14
Now howis
servants, the way
saved by
faith. That's
Thou hast
scattered thine
enemies with
thy
strong arm.
thine:
hast founded
the earth
fulness thereof,
the south
also is
thou
thou hast
as for
and the
north and
created them:
name.
Tabor and
Hermon shall
rejoice in
thy
a might
arm: strong
is thy
hand,
is thy
he hold
right hand.
above all
His son.
called justice
throne. Well,
and judgment
mercy and CLINT: And
are the
habitation of
go -about those
thy
truth shall
we're talking
two
things being
about justice justice, and you, you
I believe
resolved in
taking place. see maybe
this situation.
we're talking
and I,
that book.
and maybe
where we
that book
I believe
his hand.
take place
And I
in the
believe
that justice
and judgment
everyone that was
will
situation for
' ~
15
but I don't see a
CLINT: But,
but I,
reluctance spoken
~._-an
about here
to face
that judgment.
the Psalm. Okay?
DAVID: Well,
let's finish
Mercy and
to come
truth shall
and reveal
go before
this? The
thy face.
Lamb.
Who's going
Blessed is
sound. It's called the
the people
song of
that know
the Lamb.
the joyful
They shall
father is
watching you
He's watching everybody. name shall they rejoice shall they of their strength:
be exalted.
Lord is
defence; and
the Holy
One of
Israel is
our king.
have laid
help upon
of the
one that
people. I
chosen out
my holy
oil have
him: arm
be established:
The enemy
taxes, nor beat down the son his foes
shall not
of wickedness before his
exact upon
afflict face, and
him, which
him. I plague them will
is
0
that hate
be with him:
92
16
him. But
and in
I will
my faithfulness
my name shall his
hand also
exalted.
his
set his
sea, and
Q--44
right hand
art my
Also I
in the
father, my
will make
rivers. He
shall cry
of my salvation.
than the
kings of
the earth.
keep for
him him.
forevermore, and
What is his
shall stand
seals. I make
fast with
to endure
for ever,
and his
of heaven. my judgments
If his --
children
forsake my
the
DAVID: It
seven seals.
is. The
New Testament
CLINT: No,
there is much rare
they
to the --
-there's -- okay.
New Testament than the
Now
seven
The new
-the
seven seals
is
of the
the New
New Testament.
Testament.
That is
the
CLINT: But,
gospel which is part of
but what,
the New
what men
Testament.
need is
the
ii
4 17
So but
..-4
if they
break my
statutes, and
keep
stripes. But
not utterly
to fail.
nevertheless, my
take from him, nor
lovingkindness
suffer my
will I
'
faithfulness
will I
the I sworn
out of
by my holiness
seed,
and
that I
know is
as the
will not
lie unto
David. His
endure forever,
which we
Christ, shall
sun before me. It
his throne
shall be
established for
witness in the
ever as
heaven.
the moon,
and as
the faithful
Sure. Come
Christ. See the witness?
on up
hither. See?
See the
There
is
But
seven seals?
has cast
with thine
Thou hast
made void
the covenant
of thy
servant: thou
hast profaned
his crown
by what?
Casting it
his hedges. Thou hast this. Terrible
to the
ground. Thou
on this
hast broken
place outside to ruin.
down all
here. Look at
strong holds
what happens
to Christ.
All that
pass
92
E. 1
0 18
by thzway-CLINT: Well,
DAVID: No,
prophecy --
no, no.
_
we can
you
DAVID: I
never found
on. You
nothing illegal
CLINT: No,
minute.
no, no,
David. Now
wait
DAVID: Now
let's finish the Psalm
let's wait
--
a minute.
You --
CLINT: David,
okay,
know, if
you want
to start
that
took us
out of
the Scriptures
and outside.
outside again.
had you
to step been
resolve this,
no hedges
DAVID: Ever
since day
one --
CLINT: No
DAVID: You
hedges would
know why?
have been
torn up.
92
I'm hereto --
God and
man. And
will resolve
because
the Lord
will have
his
DAVID: You're
not informed.
CLINT: Oh,
DAVID: You
CLINT: No.
David.
need to
From, from
Imean
go back
tapes.
day one
willingness to
come forward
and in
the Scriptures
that
come forward
man and be
Lord and
judged if
Isin
or if
I didn't.
--
DAVID: Clint
CLINT: And
David.
do that,
DAVID: My
here that I'm not able
book is
to teach
going to
teach everything
every
you. Because
time
Itry
to go
interrupt. Because
and when
something start
to come to light,
no.
you fight
against it.
CLINT: No,
DAVID:
It
says in
verse 41
--
92
3
him: he hast set
92.-.4
_}
" CLINT.
See
--
20
pass by his neighbors. of his the way spoil thou has It says adversaries; thou They think
DAVID: is a up the
all that
made his,
funny.
his enemies
to rejoice.
it's
CLINT: No.
DAVID: Thou
sword --
has turned
the edge
of his
CLINT: Let
anything -DAVID: What
me tell
you that
I, I
don't think
battle?
CLINT: --
is
funny. But
responsibility to
discern
and identify
whether one
is
true prophet
or a false
DAVID: Okay. CLINT: And
DAVID: Let's
prophet. And
I'm troubled.
CLINT: My,
DAVID: --
my heart
the word --
--
CLINT: --
and my spirit is
troubled with,
Q/A
with what I hear.
DAVID: Let's finish the word of God. It
~92 -~
=1
be at the be right
Those who
seven seals,
are.
throne down to the ground.
Sure, you
love the
Lord, Clint,
right?
CLINT: Absolutely,
DAVID: But
him.
David.
you you don't know
I'm telling
CLINT: Yes,
I do.
I, I
do
--
DAVID: The
shortened: thou
days of
his youth
him with
hast thou
shame.
hast covered
CLINT: No,
right past
Lord --
now see
And to
that again.
DAVID: Who
CLINT: --
is this
that's not
person in
this Psalm?
not
correct. That's
correct, David.
relationship --
."
i VDAVID:
0.-i
22
happened -that's wrong.
CLINT: -
really believe
DAVID:
honest.
2,000
years ago,
Clint. Let's
be
CLINT: And
personal relationship
DAVID: Hey. CLINT: -
away a
I have
and that's
incorrect.
to Christ,
be the
not sons
God. Christ
born of
tried to
tell them
shame. Thou
opposite. It
hast cast
says thou
his -
hast covered
him with
is the
I'm
Lord and,
and it's --
upon me.
You're
CLINT: No,
no. It's
bringing shame
upon the
Lord, David.
DAVID: Hey, CLINT: Who DAVID: I
the seven seals or
l
who do do you know who
not?
.4
23
CLINT: No,
David. who
do you
-you
know,
if, if
not, then
and I
.~
you feel
I have
say it.
But if
the Lord,
relationship with
is with you.
you shouldn't go by
your
we turn This is
today. CLINT: If,
to Psalms a problem
2 real
quick and
look
that we'reactually
if we
get to
Psalm 2
that's,
that's a very
Christ. And
Christ.
messianic Psalm.
I don't have the
It deals
strictly with
DAVID: Well,
know that Psalms 2 is
we
and the
a vain at it
Your Christ,
The kings
the rulers
they?
of the
earth set
themselves, and
together, don't
you know,
if, if
to
David. But
to answer
can't say to me
are the
that.
expect me
not seen
you
Christ. Because
evidence of
DAVID: Okay.
at
.-
=,
a5
Psalms 2 and look at the evidence
j _.,
of Psalms 2 of
24
who
Christ is.
stumbling block.
-"a
brought
it it.
responded to
you that
the
you the
that so
seven seals.
--
to receive
CLINT: And,
and who
is the
Lamb?
here we
~
CLINT: No,
you know,
it's just
that by
implication, David,
seals --
can open
the
DAVID: Then
I am
Christ, the
son of
God.
then men
God.
should proclaim
you're
DAVID: Exactly.
am Christ, the son of God,
But I
will never
not
say that
because that's
x
25
have a problem.
~.--at
Because it
can be
only the
Lamb. And
Ican'tsay that
Ican'tcontinue on
Is that
this is
spiritually wrong.
about me.
DAVID: Why
wrong? Forget
There's nothing wrong with the earth set themselves, the Lord,
one is
together, against
We know
son of
and against
Christ, Jesus
his anointed.
Christ, the
the anointed
God.
us break
us. What seven takes me on --
their bands
do they seals. back to not
5, moving
DAVID: Chapter
4, exactly.
92 -92
92. .92
V!! 9
2s
and --
92~qI
laugh. The
to the
Lord is
laughing
the
who will
--
not listen
man teaching
CLINT: No.
worthy, David. And -DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: --
No, no.
I --
it says
he who is
And you
I don't --
--
DAVID: --
won't knowuntil he
comes to
show
here in
verse 7
Thou
unto me,
art my
Yes. I,
Son; this
I begotten
did say to me
thee.
I have
I am he. And
begotten thee.
again. Now
understand --
I was begotten
that may
hard for
you to
CLINT: No,
begotten again
and, and
I can
go
And I
DAVID: Well,
is you
being
Islamic, all
can only
faiths who
.9 92
~U92 ~
for the safety of
If you
Quad
27
C
and you was taught you do that what
a rock,
and if
you're in
Christ. That's
come from.
to come this. My
honestly,
opinion is
well, those
are
claim to
talking, and
married in
the king
Revelation 19.
is Christ.
I want
get
of the
want to
unite the
minds of
is the
which is
bring about
God to
place, that
basis. And
union takes
to say
place within
me on a daily
the seven
that until
you reveal
92
seals to
me that
that union
is not
correct I,
I really
-i
now, it's not complete.
CLINT: He,
s--1
he is,
-put him
away from
he is in
me, David.
And
there?
me.
there? there.
minute, when you was a
child, who
I'm asking.
first told
you about
Christ? That's
what
CLINT: What
are you
getting at,
David? you
someone told
in meekness
you -
the spirit
,
of Christ
in take
DAVID: Exactly.
CLINT: Two,
mean someone can tell
two different
me about
situations.
II, or
I
someone
World War
can tell
me about
Buddhism or
Catholicism or
something
else, but
to take
it in.
92z;<i'
DAVID: Right. And so
v =9
I'm asking you and
receive what
I have
CLINT: Well,
until --
you know,
at the
door, you
CLINT: --
in my
heart, until
in the
me
and what
and, and
I can't show
-I can't
deceive you.
Either it's
CLINT: I've --
going --
DAVID: -
to be
the seals
or it's
not.
with
a predisposition
that's given
who others
* '~.
thy book,
as yet
which in
there --
fashioned, when
CLINT: How,
Isaiah 53? _
how do
you identify
with, with
DAVID: Well,
Isaiah 53 a continuation
very clearly
of Isaiah
you can
52. In
see in
Isaiah 52,
we deal
with the
tidings.
Therefore my
people shall
They shall
name?
I am the
CLINT: Yeah,
DAVID: Then --
see now
I --
CLINT:
David.
-I
can't ascribe
that name
to you,
DAVID: Well,
wait a
minute. You
don't know
that name
of God.
yet. In
Revelation 19,
,
his name
is the
word
CLINT: Yeah,
difference. I ascribe the know the name to
see I
word of
- no,
see
that's the
I don't
you from
DAVID: Well,
CLINT: seen. I
then in
from what
honestly don't.
But you
haven't heard
you keep
1 ~
$8
interrupting me.
3*
Let's takea look at Proverbs 30 real quick. that we 30 is
look at.
Now Proverbs
Q44
a, is
a very
wonderful truth
see Solomon taking on
should all
Here we
of
unto Ithiel
and to
wait. You're,
you're in
Proverbs 2?
30.
30. Now
a minute.
verse 2.
DAVID: Surely
man, and have not
I am more brutish
of a man.
than any
I
the understanding
wisdom, nor
knowledge of
the
heaven, or
wind in
his fists?
bound the
all the
is his
waters in
ends of
his garment?
What is
the earth?
son's name?
God is trust in
unto his
pure: he him.
words --
is a
CLINT: Add
reprove thee --
thou not
unto his
words, least
he
Q!
h DAVID:
CLINT:
3
And thou
and
3.
ar.
a liar.
be found
thou be found
40 it
that make
not the
in the
proud, nor
volume of
such as
the book
turn aside
that's written
to lies.
of me.
I come
cum: I
DAVID: If
seals --
to tell I wanted
that I
to
discernment
can understand.
that he's
And I
granted me
so I
fruit
in you
that allows
to believe. allow me
And I to identify
is, the
truth is
the Lamb,
CLINT: Well,
DAVID: If will know truth will set the seven
the truth
we continue seals which is But if
free, David.
doctrine, we And the time no
us free.'
longer we
do not
allow
a brother,
a brother to open
that we up to
may
not understand,
us the
92
0
seals, we might just
Christ.
CLINT: You know --
O 34
find ourselves
i
fighting against
m.-1
know.
CLINT: How
earth, David?
spend on
DAVID: Thirty-three
years.
CLINT: And
the seven seals?
he talk
about
DAVID: All
that his doctrine was
through by
not his
trying to
establish
the preface.
own, it was
his spirit
of Christ
hand of
that really
God. So
that
Christ
was the
fulfillment of
prophecy. And
that finally
in
the latter
are called
to have
to this
the up like
have a chance
would open
Matthew, Mark,
at, and
I don't want to
take away
from your
word to
your flock.
listen and
But to me
discern, I
as a Christian in
don't hearit, David.
my ability
to
I'm sorry.
No, and
It's justwhere I,
it's
0
just where I feel the Lord moving you're sharing and with where you
there, David.
sand
' as
through me with what with what's taken place and
are in
Lord in
this matter.
DAVID: Well,
You know, in, in
CLINT: The
earth, he
seven seals.
over the
head with
the
DAVID: Oh,
wait
a minute.
is
beats the
truth
the wicked
the wheat
says what
a
is
word like
hammer? Does
the prophets.
it not
break in
pieces? I
mean listen
to
I do. --
I --
I spent
more years
--
on earth
than
the prophets
that's true.
CLINT: --
in all
honesty. I
really have.
I wanted
to share
with
brother Christian
U 36
a willingness,
92..-A
to do that.
not tell you I was
DAVID: I
writing out
out as
I not
tell you
I'd be
soon as
CLINT: David,
DAVID: That
you've said-way --
things. You
anywhere in
the Scriptures
2,000 years
quickly? Answer
me that.
Can you
honestly -
the world
say Christ
if
we want
to tense in
Greek and
talk about
what the
Greek meant,
you didn't --
you know,
said
DAVID:
Fine.
CLINT: --
you said
you didn'twant to
get
into these
it again.
type of
dissertations, and
a
DAVID: well, what does
37
quickly mean in the
Greek?
CLINT: Yeah,
l
well, what's, what's your
I mean it means
-exactly that. It
h CLINT:
about a day is
indiscernible! is
many years
day --
and how
many
DAVID: Well,
to Daniel and Numbers
each day
25 and
for
a year
the thing
according
of it
29. But
is that according
years.
to Peter
a day
unto God
is 1,000
talking about
pretty quick.
2 days.
DAVID: I.didn't
you think I said 2 days?
say 2
days. Did
you, did
if we'resaying
a day
is to
1,000
years, we're
days.
CLINT: Right?
5 . I 38
DAVID: Right.
the carnal mind would
So the thing of
that be considered
it is
a true
but to
Ican
tell you
long.
CLINT:
that would
DAVID: Well,
Because like,
15:4 Ibelieve
you know,
it is
if you
says
through the
have hope.
Scriptures might
You know, consolation grant another according have the the seven
things too,
God of
and towards
if we're
to
shouldn't we?
CLINT: David,
that if you believe, if you
I,
Iguess
know that
where I'm at
your
is
responsibility is
come out, I think
to complete
you should
your manuscript
do that.
and then
I've got to. think you should -the other hand from
DAVID: Because
see on
.__
0
your point of view, I agree
see
39
with you
in my
too. You
past records
know,
- now
that 1988
out, you
~-.4
deal if
know, we,
you really
we did
look at
nothing wrong.
it you'll find
I mean
were
you
might say
whoa, what,
guns. But
see, we
instructed also.
with the
and we plan to
And as
this one
too.
their
those who
have lost
lives, we
merciful.
regret that.
But we
know that
God is
to sit
to us
here and
say that
because I
was anything,
know that,
offense to
that. But
remember, you
comes down
ones too.
of love.
And now it
going
to the
God is
God is
for those
who have
show mercy.
is a God
of mercy.
going to
be any
time for
me to
sit down
and say
well,
fl:
I I,
let's turn to Psalms 2. Let's turn to Psalms 40.
40
It's
just not
going to
be.
David, the same time that you
CLINT: Well,
Sud
better conditions
They it -DAVID: That
than what
you have
right now.
is not
true.
CLINT: on,
DAVID: It
it is.
is not.
CLINT:
I'm lying to you, never would lie to
It is.
David. And you. And
Well, see
beliefs were. to a
And every
and slightly
Really you
brought in
you're --
have your
CLINT: No
0
CLINT: You've never given answer, David, as to - '
If the DAVID: Look.
Q 41
me a straight
seven seals are true,
of God.
the are
are true.
But you
my testament,
because you
haven't heard it
CLINT:
Well, I'll
--
DAVID: You
of the doubt. Look CLINT: --
the benefit
I'll look
forward
V DAVID:
on
the other
hand all
I am
is a
good friend
look forward
to reading
your manuscript,
DAVID: well,
don't expect from anybody expect you always been.
CLINT: No, I,
praise the
any respect
Lord. Otherwise,
that I don't
to give
anybody else.
Iwould
never treat
you any
way other
than I
would treat
myself or
expect
--
is Christianity. be treated, you find see, a bum every man David. in the street, is a son
sons
to
too. You
of God
of God
that. Some
Some sons
don't know
42
of God don't knowwhat we know. You're appointed a
~.. honest --
basis in an
is
is what
your responsibility
forthright way.
now it comes time that we have to
the final
the seven
faith
seals.
And I
cut down
anybody's interpretation
of
the seven
CLINT: David,
through my
discernment
--
well, I
think you
your time
your manuscrip-,
shared, I think
what you
need to to
understand
is God on
your reluctance
stand before
the outside
of your
DAVID: I'm
--
' 43
CLINT: -is, is only has to do with the
transcription of
that's not
sq
needed to
lost in
souls
will be
weeks if
them that
share that.
you feel
the faster
And I
the seals
you got
see that
is going
out the
to impact
faster you
upon
could
of
as a responsibility
yours that
responsible for
David. And
you're
I appreciate
truth is
step to
take. Because
that's
anybody in back.
I don't think I've ever met that's gone there yet or come
CLINT: Well,
DAVID: Well, things about something to it. Because consider.
I look
forward to
it.
show you some
have. That's
CLINT: Well,
if --
see maybes
and possible
and
DAVID: Well,
if I
told you
had you
wouldn't
believe me
Laughing.! I
David, come
2,000 years ago.
on.
Christ says
I tell
you the
truth, and
D
me. Then they, then they brought him
Are thou will not
44
- after all that he did tell
tell
they, they
us now. you, you
v--n
before the
or no?
Pharisees, well,
He says if I
a greater
many prophets.
through
through Joshua.
through the
the prophets.
Judges. Christ
spoke through
Isaiah and
just, I
just want
you to
be
that, that
on Christianity.
DAVID: Well,
now I
think Christianity
nominally speaking
has brought
much dishonor,
discredit
upon itself. You know CLINT: And DAVID: history. each new -Christianity L person that has a pretty -dark
CLINT: Each
makes a claim and brings DAVID: Exactly. those two witnesses are
new person
more upon
that stands
it. as far
up and
as tells you
was shown.
And I
show by
two anointed
earth. We
whole
on the
Mount of
-.
Elijah appeared to him, correct? correct.
4.5
CLINT: That's correct.
DAVID: And we know that Christ is the one
Q...-an
who bridges the Old Testament law of Moses and the New Testament grace which was revealed through Elijah, he for 3-1/2 rebuked strongly. years. But it was strictly to Elijah. bring his
CLINT: But
End of tape 232.!
just
-the
--
U.S. DEPARTMENT
OF THE
TREASURY
BUREAU OF
ALCOHOL, TOBACCO
8 FIREARMS
~--:9
TAPE #233
4/15/93
Pu: _
' 4/16/93
AOMO
~ .
O O
Tape 233!
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT: -- message you have to
2
that mankind needs to hear it.
share is
Q4
so important
The reluctance
to complete
it in
the most
-- in
the
--
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:
DAVID KORESH: - about
them. They're
going to
Every man
be lost
is going
based upon
to be
what they
don't know.
does now.
judged by
what he
this crazy
that's supposed to be
teaching the
what is
David --
to themselves:
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:
DAVID KORESH:
place --
over
the
you
think your
level of
do that. And -been easy with some
responsibility is
have to
say, I
show you
every time
we start
looking into
it --
you that
spirit that
' 2
I
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:
I
What, what I want,
David, is
for you
then to
feel led
complete your
and to
manuscript if
and to
share that
bring your
flock out,
DAVID KORESH:
further share
that message
the glory
-of our
Well, that's
-- as
quickly as
To not
of heart,
stand before
men judge
likewise.
when
you come
out, David.
DAVID KORESH:
would you
like us
to send
the
tape to
you so
you can
study
it more
thoroughly?
is made
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:
The decision
anything up
Oh, okay.
like that.
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:
decision.
my
DAVID KORESH:
Okey-doke. Well,
DO
UNIDENTIFIED AGENT:
4
forward to
We'll look
it, David
DAVID
KORESH: And
I'lltalk
to you
later
.41
then. Bye-bye.
**** DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE
Hello?
SCHNEIDER: Good
Steve? SCHNEIDER: Yeah?
morning.
"
How are
you doing?
too bad. It's been a
SCHNEIDER: Not
long
time
DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE
Oh, yeah.
Been awhile.
have you been?
SCHNEIDER:* So,
here then
or DICK:
--
for, for
a little
bit.
STEVE DICK:
SCHNEIDER: So,
Well, you
af-- so
Oh, yeah.
Imeant,
meant
I.
U O
DICK: Just when, right?
5
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Yeah.' There's been always
that time
element.
DICK: Yeah. Well.
v.--v
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
what
to
best as
we can,
DICK: Well,
you mean
by
that. What
ears?
words are
you talking
about and
whose deaf
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Well, you
know, they
a lot
a lot
of the
phone calls
lately have
been us to I
more
will be
court that
doing. But
I fear
than any,
all will
yourselves, you
know. We
DICK: Well,
you, you
know, I
know what
of course
Yeah, I
I mean,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: You know.
Oh, it's an --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
The reason
I was
going to
%- '
il O
give you a ring right now is because one of the were Bradleys ran
right in
-.~-vi
6
into the building where
there, and I think
the children
-I
their room
don't know
if one
there was
-if
it hit
a number
right by
of them
the crib
started crying.
or what, but
just recently,
you
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Yeah.
DICK: Just
moments ago?
Yeah.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Did, didn't
they tell
you
ahead of
time they
DICK: Well,
were going
to do
that or
it, but
--- you
I'm notaware of
know, it,
your word.
it's certainly
We --
possible. I'm
not doubting
side of the
what happened,
now? What
building are
we talking
about?
Well, I, I think you
I'm, I'm
YOU
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
It's right
in the
front.
DICK: Okay.
just moments -STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Right in
front of
the building
Yeah.
Q
DICK: ago?
Yeah. STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Okay.
~--vi
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
They just
came and
told me
that the
one that
children were
was right
DICK: Well,
crying. Apparently,
there in
I-
there was
there. So.
the room
we, we
can check
on that
and, and
I'm --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -not sure
okay.
why. But, on the other
hand, I,
I certainly
am not
doubting you.
No. I'm, I'm sureyou
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
wouldn't doubt me.
DICK: You
know, the
- you,
you mentioned
-you
know, you
talked about
out sooner
Um-hum.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
all
know that.
And
that the
people
with you
at least,
over
the last
that's --
couple of
far as
that's
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
.' _
0O
DICK: And,
about when
8
of course, there's all this talk
- you know, writing the
David's finished
his interpretation
...4I
seals, that
be meaningful.
well --
course, someone
Did you
get --
to hear
anything about
the conversation
or the
I mean
either comments
tape itself
DICK: No.
wi-- for some --
I, I
know that
he and
Clint spoke
concerning --
what, nearly
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -the seals.
STEVE SCHNEIDER
3 Correctly
that, of
answer your
truthfully, no,
DICK: --
--
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Isat
there by Of
the
all said.
conversation.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
But --
DICK: Well,
I know
Clint was
-- in
fact, I
II
think he
.~92
tried to call in last night
Yeah, he
,
and talk
did.
9
to you --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -for --
~.-'1
to get
me.
It
important is
it,
I asked them.
And then
Isaid
well, you
know, if
they mentioned
to sit up when
the questions,
it was so
Iwas
freezing
so,
he wrote them
Yes. Scott did. Yeah. Scott
down.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
did. And
--
DICK: And
it was
answered,
Ithink,
to some
degree today.
terms of the --
Well, how
did, how
did they
leave
it in
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Well, he
--
DICK: -David --
the conversation
today?
was
~ STEVE
SCHNEIDER: -Of
course, he
-- well,
he
got off
know, you
pretty abruptly,
and Iboth he really
--
Clint did.
know that had a he never
Idon't-- you
calls for for the
reason because
himself to
deep interest
DICK: That's
--
now, that's
--
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: --
-- indiscernible!.
at all true. In fact --
that's not
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Oh. Well,
may--
well,
I iD
maybe it was -DICK: It was with some interest. In fact
10
--
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
M!
I see. Isuggested
DICK:
In fact,
probably period of
it was
not a
reasonable thing
to do because
this thing
about those
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
things.
Uh-huh.
- so, about --
in, in
fact, Clint
is very
I don't
--
I'm resigning
not have an
interest in course, all the majority influence in comes right plastic Jesus
Imean,
of
America,
some kind
And -want to
or whatever-in or isn't.
Ithink, but
their imagination
DICK: Well,
they think
that's -- is true,
92 i
I} I
each of us --
11
---
..-4
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Yeah,
but the
DICK: --
belief system. -only, the only this person source in of and all different forms 2,000 its of
STEVE SCHNEIDER: the world years ago traditions and that ever -I mean, the rituals, like
talked about
denominations, no still comes that really And, and it says guess, all Jews were were. They
matter which
one you
it Eiplg,
of 2,000
does it
speak about
what he did
taken 2,000
unawares
never expected
him to
come in the
did. If
and you
those four
gospels
"thus the a
here,
prophet -of
in the
- later,
the Gentiles
- how
challenge is
it's, it's
D O
in a -- it's bizarre in worked contrary
DICK:
_.-4
12
its setting, to that but since kind of
I understand
when has
God ever
a setting?
what you're
Well, Steve,
that I
guess most
that's quite
and what
apart from
the, the
events of
followed. I
your concern And, of
own beliefs.
mean, we
and that
understand what
you have a lot
course, again,
But -STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: --
the central
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
me, Dick. You -DICK: Pardon me?
-- share
your beliefs
with
beliefs with
me.
-- you
-- that's
what we're
Maybe, maybe
you would
have done
the beginning,
then.
I might
here right
DICK:
Well, Steve,
{ ~
ilb '!
DICK: -are law enforcement officers.
13
Yeah +I know you are. I
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
realize that.
e.-4
for some
there somewhere
more than
you can
but for
the book.
I understand that. But how does
that resolve
mean, you can
this issue?
--
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Well, well
--
DICK: --
have your
beliefs -there's
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
a God that v
was a God that
long before
spzke with
that February
this person,
the 28th,
showed him
there
things. And
the proof
for me
and all
those
that have
taken the
time to
listen, which
is,
which is
that you two ears,
I finally gave it a
process of
listening, I
be here,
from six-and-a-half
years ago
to this
very
._
. .
ll!
92
O
time. And,
controvert, so
consistent source
I1
and, in all honesty, I've notbeen able
It's been the most
ever seen in
to
that I've
my life,
92_-C
the iblg
DICK: Well,
and the
person showing
what you
that.
say. The
Ibelieve
only problem
is
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
give anything
if you
people could
find someone
that
claims to
can -
be a Christian
or claims
has four
languages, has
If you
understand what
world looking
around the
individuals.
DICK: Steve,
I hear
But, you
know, that,
you can
---
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -we can
would happen
and ever. If the dam
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
goes,
there's good a
little -
a good
earthquake over
here in
this Waco
of a you
bearing with
think?
yourself
DICK: Well,
well, when?
I mean,
you know,
eventually, maybe
that dam
would go
What if
-it's tonight?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
0
DICK: well, if
,
it goes tonight, I'll tell
15
-Good. Good.
doomsday. However
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
you know,
we can
all, we -can't. I
can all,
haven't
EVEI .
DICK: Well,
listen. Let
me, let
me --
STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: -these calamities I mean, just say will come,
DICK: --
in time
-Like Nostradamus.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Yeah.
They were
forecasting Mount
St.
Well, eventually
these disasters,
it did
blow. All
events or
these
calamities, I
right. But
mean, eventually
the, the --
you're goingto he
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
I agree
on --
with you
on
that. I know, in
the difference
is, you
you know,
92
4O
that to me if you -I mean, you mumble-jumble -DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK:
,3
16
it'll be
--
couldn't --
No. It's
not that
I couldn't
Q. >-ed
SCHNEIDER: No,
I'm -SCHNEIDER: Well
you
--
--
I, I
won't. But,
now listen
--
SCHNEIDER: No,
I know
you won't.
-- I
might give,
I might
give --
SCHNEIDER: I
-my own --
know you
won't --
SCHNEIDER: --interpretation
because you
and it may
-not be
the same
SCHNEIDER: Well,
it wouldn't
be --
-- and
it sure
isn't going to be
the
SCHNEIDER:= Because
I don't
--
--
as David's.
SCHNEIDER: No.
It wouldn't
be,
can
read
it all
day long
understand -DICK:
Okay. SCHNEIDER:
I understand.
STEVE
DICK: STEVE
-the
language employed
--
SCHNEIDER: --
in the
first place.
.1 92
I!
Q
that -STEVE SCHNEIDER:
emu
Q 1-,
DICK:' Absolutely. not understand Imay all
A
And if you do belong to a
you're notgoing to
answers.
DICK: Absolutely.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
a --
That's thewhole
-- the
--
body.
This is
you're, you're suggesting that, people -Well, in suggest to that you fact, we us that would like have talked
David's interpretation
seven
seals
is certainly
different than
they suggest
to understand
those folks
that, that
what it
that
we will
is that
David
than is
debate
'
' 18
that point. What we'rehere to STEVE SCHNEIDER: here -~,.-0
No, no.
if you
-but
we-- well,
listen
--
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Listen
- like
myself
Let me just
--let me
to me.
finish what
would love,
there --
I was saying. I
you and David and,
understand that
and, and
you guys
others out
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
I know
say before
you say
DICK: No.
it, but
go ahead.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK:
-you
guys would
love to
speak about
those kinds
of issues
and -forever.
--
And, and,
you
Dick? I
let me
DICK:
-let
me tell
I think
you this
that
ti-- it's
--
--
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: --
been a
long time.
O
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- mankind
' 19
wants to see
movies, the
to
DICK: Well,
mean?
live in.
I think
before
they want to
take place
give a judgment.
it too if there
has
you're, you're
this world
all.
of us
and if
if at
think all
have those
concerns at
-STEVE DICK:
SCHNEIDER: I
do.
-- at
life.
But maybe
--
right.
Q 2.
DICK: STEVE But --
SCHNEIDER: But
some -for
some of
us
DICK:
Absolutely. It,
can't quarrel
it certainly
with that, for. I
is,
because am not at
Steve, and
I'mI -
you're looking
this point
are.
in my
life as
concerned about
that as
you
SCHNEIDER: Um-hum.
And, and
others are
--
an hon--
I like
of people
- on
that
the ri
have
STEVE
--
DICK: STEVE
I totally,
So, I
-
mean, for,
for someone
out
there
or someone
to
-here,
to try
to force
our views,
whether they
-- or
other views
--
.!
.21
STEVE SCHNEIDER: I mean, you know that never
would one ever force one's view, one loves human but
beings so
~~-n
~ and is
like you
I'm
one has
to and
that'sI'm, --
way. But
in the
sand, and
I do we
you do
know, I I mean,
here, what
resolved. And,
do you
folks do
there, to,
we know --
to get
this thing
you know,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
We believe
God. We
believe
that --
the much
have seen
much opened
We've heard
much that
lectures on
science. We've
heard and
the why
this, why
that, the
deepest come to
have ever
asked. We've seen answers are not till they second, third, so apt finally
-now,
fourth, fifth
been the clear to
seals opened,
final one, those that are and the
the sixth.
picture has not
The seventh
been that
has
here still.
.,
has been developed. And came out all - well, of a that statement it --
5 2.
sudden, of course, now, it's about
two-and-a-half days
Qw
ago, I
came out
I've seen
the morning
since
before and
thing
least
some kind
of direction
other than
just wait,
wait, wait.
-Imean,
And, I
that
DICK:
mean, other
first time
than those
--
two letters
was the
Okay. What,
what are
you specifically
referring to?
STEVE
SCHNEIDER:
Well, first
of all,
you
know,
came.
there was
- Friday
and Saturday
those letters
DICK: STEVE
yesterday he
there was
gave me
written some
a piece
of paper,
of which
DeGuerin. And
on
statements to
before he
read
with DeGuerin
and that
himself,
was the
those statements
to DeGuerin,
first it to
Italked
Igot
to hear and
see of it.
And I for
some of the
to, to
negotiators today
Wayne and John-5 and
Rick. But,
anyway, in
that with
the process
them,
about how
Iwent
all
through
of a
a little
bit
now
of
sudden he's
supposed to
or in a written
publish the
form.
seven seals in
manuscript form
Q Q
DICK: Well, I, Ithink one of the questions
..
you know, seven the
there, and in time all of to go a ahead down to you folks out this point put some,
not new
some of
his thoughts
on paper.
nothing more
my belief
is this
--
is
technique.
Oh -okay --
Imean
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: --
I,
Ibelieve
-- okay,
that
that -okay --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Ibelieve
that --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Dick? Can
Ireact
to
that?
way these stalling tactic you what pull the Sir, now
people are,
If you
want a tell
or something be by
nature. I'd
crap. people
are. when
seen things unfold stalling, what big --
we believe
in God,
you can
Abrams. Go
right through
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
people --
and
9 0
I'd come screaming out and all the rest. If you think
=4
and I'm -not
remember, Steve Listen to -me. Dick? --
do, Dick,
DICK: Well,
talked about
Dick?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -that before.
I know. to do that.
don't want
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Dick, Dick.
get to
see what
they're may
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
you
and were
DICK: I
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
it'llbe a
cold day
and tell
in hell
you. But that's
:,
Q0
-- I'm being honest
is. DICK: I don't doubt --
=5
with you. That's not way the it
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
92.--0
People --
that you
believe in
God, that
you
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK:" -belief in
These people
God.
--
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
No, no,
but, Dick,
these
expect to
And if -- you
you think
know, think
not so.
I'm telling
you that is
DICK: Let know, all quarrel with is watching your -of you
Steve. You or
-- no--
you know,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
unders--
do that at,
at
in his
hands and
when
allowed,
Q Q
you read the stories of the iplg from with his Genesis to so-called Revelation, all that he'sallowed
2.
a minority.
we are -or
contrary, not
quality life
better one
here and
that doesn't
on into
same time,
a
of
to get to be
the of
Noah, only
chose to
eight people
hear that truth
out of
for
billions
that day.
listened or
It doesn't look
good ever
with mankind
cities of of that.
in the
days of
Sodom and
Three people the Exodus
In the
experience,
Caleb and
Joshua out
of over
two to
three
million people
wrong with mankind? their religious mouth religion,
rest is -- of
made it
into the
They want
promised land.
it their They want way. They to, to
What is
want -b--' The
hour out
of the week.
never
is their
own. It's
me,
into something
Steve Schneider
be just
for me,
what I
can get
out of
like everybody
else. Eat,
drink, and
sleep, for
Q0
DICK: Well, it certainly is --
=1
for a lot of people. For me, if there is it's one extreme or a God and that iglg
here can do
But if
me what
And Iam
up on
anyway. But
giving
this whole
to
mean, why
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Well, because
A --V
Because there's a for
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
and I,
of
yourself as enough to
understand where
for me,
Ireally
do.
But because
because of
I've taken to
is
a weight Ilook
is
And when
see that
harmonize, which
when Iwas
before, different
denominations, they
know, Christians
will go
and say
well, the
gible
QO
harmonizes. But
I don't care to
v-~~i
E1
#' '
28
when you
really put
them to the
test,
you. There
scholars can.
saw, what
Amos saw,
in light
of -DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
to, like
me an
agent their, what you're
the phone.
in the
first place.
true. I understand.
DICK: That's
- so,
obviously,
any degree
has been
I think it maybe he
courtesy do with I
maybe something
you know,
motives
that I'm
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
at the,
but
at the
same
time, we
could only
here --
oh, God,
if I
could only
ma-if
have hours
to develop
without interruption,
Ithink
would
.,-92_ _
Q! "'
start wondering.
book 1:18, says
a-an
29
the God of that,
that, as together, sayeth the way we have
I believe
of that
in Isaiah your been
is
conversation of
not want to hear
wasn't his
DICK: Well
-- motive was it
Because he
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Now,
listen --
h srsvn
DICK: --
to that.
Give me
a chance.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Well,
Istood
here and
I'd
let me start to
And at
it was
just say,
Iwas
right to clarify
all
be
read something
the same
cut off
time, then
and he would
of time. Icould
So,
really did
not want
to hear
this developed
I
DICK: Well --
30
questions.
ilg -I -From the
4 DICK:
here.
You know,
Iwasn'there.
Iwas
not
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Iwas
though.
Ido
has got
say.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
But David
seals. And
then asked
he told
him well,
David he knew
then you
them. Well,
show
if he
knew them,
and show
--
--
DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:=
to Da-
DICK: And
I--
again,
he
knows about
of written
the seals.
word on
I,
Ido
know that
much of
there's a lot
the seals,
which doesn't
have anything
to do
with what
David Koresh
says --
they
represent. And,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: --
an argument
that ---
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
- interested
9 Q
DICK: we don'tneed to enter into,
31
V
STEVE SCHNEIDER: But, but, Dick, if you want
because -
~..-1
now.
Iwon't as I
knows something to be
seen in
he does,
on the
phone with
one or
two
minutes there,
phone, and
making small
Icould tell he
talk until
David got
an
to the
didn't have a -
it was
not me
he wanted
to talk
with.
he was
obvious. Whatever
kind of
a Christian
or is
and what
are, else. A
Iguess
they're not
of Acts
and the
their total
ones
- one
that others
was not
-Christ
interested in
The apostles,
those that
they reached,
none of
them
this of Noah
in a
in and
you have
and a
mouth service.
it would be. So, very things
But that's
we're, we're that they
the prophet
foresaw in
the final
days. People
are into
things,
O0
material things.
what they can get DICK: Well,
~~-:6
3.
They're into the here
out from it point for under the looks to me -sun. like -let me,
and the
now,
let me
address that
just
Sure.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: --
a second.
You know,
Ikeep
hearing
these material
don't meanyou,
things
Imean
you have
the --
no interest
-- and
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
No, no
--
Imean
Isee
you out
Isee,
there.
you
four-wheel buggies most of things, at STEVE SCHNEIDER: DICK: Oh, yes, you us would least of Did
certainly did.
You had
no --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -not true.
these things
they're here?
as
DICK:
Well, go
ahead.
STEVE scrmmonm
new people come and so forth
you know,
--qd
a lot
for
they have
can get where we into -
a total
sit there
DICK: You
your --
of exercise
riding
Exercise in you?
Huh?
my --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
a lot
of exercise
riding
C
In the -the truth of the
matter is,
they have
ra-- if
you look
at the
miles on
not
that there's
DICK: Well,
I understand.
But, you
know,
loJudy
of enjoyed
that, isn't --
I 34 STEVE
SCHNEIDER:
well, no,
I never
had a
Harley. Well
DICK: STEVE ~...-1 DICK: STEVE
was a,
used Magna
that
DICK: STEVE DICK:
Well, whatever
SCHNEIDER: And
was, you
--
-- apparently
at one
time enjoyed
that. STEVE
little period
bit of time where
of time
we did
or
-- yeah.
There
use it,
but at
I --
no, no
one's ever to
DICK:
at
all. I'm
in things
SCHNEIDER:
-- to
Well, yeah.
a degree.
is -but -which is
SCHNEIDER: Which
fine. But
at the
same time,
the day
being offered
it'sthere or
/S
-5
..
as
that the prophets talk about. And
I, I
think that
if you
a half-hour
to even
an I
connection there.
you know,
remember, I with you
early on
of the
in this
thing. As
that talked
you
early people
srzvz SCHNEIDER:
Right.
DICK: -
at some
length, both
you and
David.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
because we
thing. We
do believe
do believe
in it
in it.
DICK: Let,
we're stuck. Okay?
let me
offer to
you why
I think
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Okay.
DICK: I
have absolutely
no quarrel
with your
religious convictions.
talking about me
Nobody does.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
You are
welcome to having
all
I can
appreciate your
set of,
my own
of thoughts
as
K" 5
this has
'
to get -we have to move on
as
in this issue.
preach, to
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -
to do
those kinds
that's
of things.
where you don't
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
is for
us he
very consistent
and
clear and
not found
all that
he's presented,
On
fault with
that information.
the contrary,
that we
the incident.
have taken
to heart and
lived by,
even before
DICK: But
that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: Nobody
quarrels with
that.
-- you'retalking about that that God yet. That has not is the I would
the
for
to leave
I mean,
for my
own reasoning,
say
.8 o
yes to the same point. I
50%
..
I, like from do. But,
reason. I to know his
you, see
it
a carnal at the
was here will and
vantage same
because I want
positively, clearly
not here know God. his for that I want
time, I'm
I want to
to do
will. And
right now
in the being that issues There are
the
that's good
of our seen
than, say,
raised --
all over.
at least
know, the
have been
con. But
developed
that can
be looked
at very
openly and
honestly, both
political. And
in the religious
I -so, I
bent and
see that it's, a lot
also
it's healthy. maybe
I don't see
be
to do
and you
nor did
know the iblg,
I ever come
any
that
God does
decision has
hear or
know --
to
stay until
to
know exactly
wants him
0 38
DICK: Well, laws of man, do you not, you still have to deal with the Steve? '
I do. I do. But God I
srsvs scamaroaa:
fear first
N-an
though, Dick.
DICK: Well, I'm --
Way beyond
man.
not suggesting
you shouldn't.
suggest that.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, that's the reason
That is
the only
reason. There's
excuse. The God I only believe
has showed
thereby. And
him things
the very
that has
things that to controvert.
showed me things
he has So, for with the program. don't have shown me, that
moving along
DICK: That's
fine. You
know, you
to controvert
anything. Nobody
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
has to
Yes, but
do that.
that's what I'm
saying.
DICK: What --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
But, but
that God
is saying
telling
point.
us not
to go
out right
DICK: I'll
tell you.
-that
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
A S
God has
seven seals.
9292
said is to, to publish or
DICK: And then to
O1
to write
' edit those
O 39
out those
seven seals --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
s~d then.
Yes. To
get out
of here
DICK: --
and those
kind of
things. Well,
have not
heard even
anybody say
that. I
read it
directly off
the page.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: be honest tell me know, he with you. ahead of just handed DICK: Well,
throw a little --
And I
was quite
Iwas
surprised because
happening. You
let me
just
say today,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
you're correct
that.
DICK: --
next month,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: So, I mean,
{D
Q .
mean, that'snot
answer and --
E
an acceptable answer. It may be an
40
to give. it's
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Oh, I
- it
will.
DICK:
~..n
-the
only one
you plan
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
not acceptable to yourselves.
Like you
say, maybe
Well,
let me
say this.
Now, what
-go
ahead and
two fellows,
is he
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
understood.
No. That's
DICK:
Well, but,
but --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:,
what I've understood.
Just
-what
you asked
is
DICK:
That's what everybody
Well, what's
--
the time-frame,
though?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
if
:1 92 . .92
days now, the time-frame, the time-frame.
. 41
God will
tell you
come out?
92---II
DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
that way
with
the iplg
up to
is looking
at issues
or is looking
92 92 7
He opens
up some kind
of a,
a fantastic, for
now remember,
over those
was so I tested going to down with
and ultimately
beginning days
of my meeting
that time
with him,
even. I world,
which
mean, by I sat
professors of
numerous, numerous
rabbis. And I
ministers and
mean, he
priests and,
was so _
beyond. It's like taking that's four or five that has 10 doctorate
of a
sandbox a guy of a
years old
degrees. It's
difference, apart
scholars with
from -I
degrees. If
DICK: Yeah,
but nobody
under-
let's face
*<;_
paL.
O
it. Nobody
Now --
Q
say.
und
erstands what that man has to
92~-at
.STEVE oxcx:
SCHNEIDER: I
do.
Well, you,
you
--
SCHNEIDER: I,
I think
you --
-- you're exception an
SCHNEIDER: No,
listened, but
then.
you would
no. Dick,
yourself if obviously --
you
DICK: STEVE DICK: STEVE DICK: have come out o STEVE DICK:
Well, listen
SCHNEIDER: --
-to listen.
Let me
tell you
something. I
have --
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
-- talked
f that
compound. Okay?
SCHNEIDER: Okay.
was dealing
with
eople, none
e of ll say ve what he has
of whom
understand what
there for he has but none
he
years. to
been in
of them
They can,
but they
can't,
nitely repeat
say on--
it.
what --
It sa--
it says
only
It's
thereon, it
states in
that chapter
=:;, ~*1w
,.
I'llyou tell of it. the truth. I could make a lot of me of sense because I
At
43
they can. come out,
easier time
better than
these people
that have
like you
can mention
Brad or
come directly
with no
real religious
influences
by going
know what
to certain
individuals, you
know,
circumstances to
answer any
he was tape from -it's very
and all
kinds of
him, if to it.
questions, like
you've got that Because I think you
Clint, when
a, a
logical and
clear. I
understand what
I'm serious.
he is saying
when he
is speaking.
I,
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Let me
Sure.
ask you
this.
why do
differ in of the --
then, i--
I've talked to
%'l' 4|,
a couple of them personally and srzvn scnnzxnsn: DICK: -e.-at
Q, .
1
0
--
44
have they said?
they differ
Well, what
from what he
has to say.
" STEVE
know, if you could
very different
substance, certainly.
those things. It's --
the matter is
DICK: --
DICK: --
to be done.
know --
We're,
-.--r
Q.
here because of the Eiplg, because we believe
DICK: It's religious a It'sreligious thing a
~._-1
45
in God -Steve. thing in part, in part, and we're not
quarrelling with
that part.
However --
me, let
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
continue, please.
Okay. p has happened here is
there
have
been four
there, the,
There have
been many
folks inside
is it
that
the --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:four --
-why
do you
in fact
killed
DICK: Okay.
first.
I, I
know that --
,_*__~_ W
_ -/
~ "_-IIIIII
,-
positions that
Con-out
DICK: Now,
hold it.
powerful office.
I do
a job
IRS
-the
I-- all
these seragencies
that are
that
freedoms of many. I
this, but I never
still_knew that much about them, but I knew they were definitely abusive and theygot awaywith their, their
atrocities, I mean, long before this. So, whenthis took place, it didn't surprise me. It surprised me
that they
i: |__.
Q .7
And, I mean, when they killed a woman
was where.
laying in
bed just
Q-~-U
get to
their
see
that. These
names. I
people are
wanted to
already dead.
from the
give them
beginning, but
few people
thought it
at that
time. It
was my idea. I
wanted to plaster it
dead inside
close friend
to the
press immediately,
the -one of them
five people
a close,
here. And
of mine from
in his
a fly,
a record
man, he
always the
was a very
best intentions
everywhere.
four Federal
agents. Well,
and their
cry and
I, I
mourn for
who did
them too.
what here?
And,
families. But
I didn't see no
sheriff. I
to the
And out
in the
hallway. He
got it
immediately. Hello,
Dick? He
gThe
got it
wlA' ' these -the, the, the people out here. Women were
48
the trucks earth they
that out.
to see
what on
what was
You'll find
bring it
out into
DICK: And
his court.
that's what
And if
I'm going --
we said.
-- to
be reprimanded -
have we
not said
that all
But, no.
I was
here on
the
press conferences
and what
you say
-- you
talk about
four dead
agents. what
about these
thing, Dick. I have never ever
people who
- they
brought this
subject up inside
without mentioning
there. Never.
You cannot
=But what
didn't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -when I
do you
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
-- think
about
an agency
like that,
have a
though? I
chance. DICK: What
didn't even
I --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
What -
wait, wait
minute. Can
I ask
you something?
DICK: Certainly.
0
STEVE SCHNEIDER: And let's -- it doesn't
49
in your home and
you know, kind of had some
even have to be
some other
-.--.4
ATE/FBI. Say
you were
that --
agency of
power as a police
come to a gun your door
force or
and start
something and,
shooting, and and try
and they
you did it out,
just
have
somewhere, would
you go
to get
hoping that as
a last
resort --
use
it, but,
your wife
was it
that all
-- that
happened to
be standing
came up the, up
the roadway?
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
no --
all. That,
ask you this.
that's --
DICK: Well,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
it.
- the
first I've
heard of
DICK: You
-- do
you regularly
carry guns
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: never.
l
then, that
~
bullets came out
DICK: How
is it,
J .0
through the they were d-- through pulling up the sides or after - shortly
That never STEVE SCHNEIDER:
.~-vi
.0
walls just after
happened.
of the
as
--
DICK: Well,
there weap--
fire from
you folks
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
inside?
I know that there
W38 .
DICK: Okay.
Certainly you
know that
there
was. What
weapons, does
does that
it not?
indicate? It
indicates people
had
There are
weapons
in
this
DICK: All
right.
we never had said
that
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
there wasn't,
DICK: What,
some point in
with
people were
waiting there
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
They were
--
to--
that they
ran porch?
weapons once
the front
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
to see
I want to
the whole
report. In
fact,
I-
you know,
I,
J '4
tell it advised -way more
92~-1
.1
but I'vebeen I've said
the
to you
you -than I
you know,
truth is
well, you
the truth.
know, I
these attorneys
still, the
truth will
happens to
.
let's -I -about the truth.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Dick,
Iknow
for
a fact
where Iwas
and --
You know.
And I,
I'll --
nothing. I Iheard
was in
a place
fir-- the
was, was
is
the outside.
That is
true. That
positively true.
DICK: How were coming from?
And then
could you
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
at the
--
was feet
the diagram
Iwas
I mean,
a shocker, I did
hear something
J
coming, but I never
at a
Q... 52
-- I thought it would be
of that
like
nature.
door, something
DICK:
Well,
what were
people doing
then?
waiting? If to just
were going
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Never. There
-- you're
going to
find out
DICK: Okay.
there was
Steve,
no plan.
listen --
There wasn't --
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Nothing was
weapons to
return fire.
I, I
if ATP
did fire
Then people
waiting in, In other
had to
in order
true?
words, you
get guns
out of
bedroom.
the arms
room up
there in
Da--
near David's
The, the
people already
had the
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
Well, number
learn
that I
--
it seems
but anyway,
is inval--
I don't want --
DICK:
that.
Well, straighten
me out,
then, on
*
STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, I'd better not law,
..-0
' 53
do it
to tell
you only told me that anyway.
you the
details right
Ican where, where
now, but
tell you -- but
I,
Ican
tell
have
what people
will, and
But --
that's what --
DICK: --
we suggested -- but
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: --
that you
I,
come out
Ihope
and tell
that the first
us.
ATF shot,
video even
before the
It will.
Idid
And Ihope
see cars there finally course,
Idid
two, of
sound and
DICK: Well,
certainly there's
some of
that.
tell you
the truth,
the press
is, as
I'm
press conferences,
Ki
sure, haven't you, the last few days? some of it. You STEVE SCHNEIDER: Well, y--
54
is a lot of times I've either
I, I've --
been late.
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER: -- missed like a lot of the
beginnings, so
DICK: Well,
matter
are fed
is waning.
up --
I mean,
it absolutely
is. People
I'm s--
I'm sure.
I am
s-- I,
fed up
with this.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
I don't doubt
to be of, of
here
in the
first for
God
the world,
in this
I believe
that I
believe spoke
through all
the prophets
about
this very
-DICK: Steve,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
I
I don't doubt --- time.
Y
DICK: -STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: However --
Q
I don't doubt that.
ss
That's why
you, youup ended there to begin with. However -But that's why I'm -~.~-9!
-- still
transpired and
my personal
with this.
My belief,
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
DICK: -that
of David's
reluctance
or, or
a lot
of this
-- these
-- you
know, this
waiting
for, for
is, is
knows he
to do these
to come
-- He's not
kinds of
face
things
what he
out and
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
a man
that fears
death, I
can tell
DICK: Well,
death.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
fear --
he doesn't
about death
here.
out and
story.
standing up
in a
kind of,
*3
' ' ~ ss
DICK: Okay.
STEVE SCHNEIDER:
month of November,
I, I, I
one of these
I think
it was
the last
the time,
part of
but he
November,
called into
believe about
got to
hear what
he had not --
he has
affinity of,
he saw David as
with us
a musician.
gave his
or David he gave [End of
honest opinions,
or waus what tape 233.] the situation, he --
whether good
the place.
or bad,
about us
You know,