KTR00186

LOUIS BRITSCH, III February 5, 2009
Page 1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA
IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION

CONSOLIDATED LITIGATION
NO. 05-4182
"K" (2)
PERTAINS TO: MRGO ROBINSON JUDGE DUVAL

NO. 06-2268
MAG. WILKINSON
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
LOUIS D. BRITSCH III,
140 Helois, Metairie, Louisiana 70005, taken
in the Offices of the Department of Justice,
400 Poydras Street, Suite 900, New Orleans,
Louisiana, on Thursday, February 5, 2009.
JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

Page 2 Page 4
1 APPEARANCES:
2
1 STIPULATION
3 ANDRY LAW FIRM 2
BY: JONATHAN B. ANDRY, ESQ.
4 610 Baronne Street 3 It is stipulated and agreed by and between
5
New Orleans, Louisiana 70113
ATTORNEYS FOR THE PLAINTIFFS
4 counsel for the parties hereto
6 5 that the deposition of the aforementioned
LAW OFFICE OF JOSEPH M. BRUNO
7 BY: SCOTT JOANEN, ESQ.
6 witness is hereby being taken under the
855 Baronne Street 7 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, for all
8 New Orleans, Louisiana 70113
ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS LIAISON 8 purposes, in accordance with law;
9
10
COMMITTEE 9 That the formality of reading and signing
SHER, GARNER 10 is specifically not waived;
11 BY: CHARLES TABOR, ESQ.
909 Poydras Street
11 That all objections, save those as to the
12 Suite 2800 12 form of the question and the responsiveness of
New Orleans, Louisiana 70112
13 ATTORNEYS FOR PLAINTIFFS 13 the answer, are hereby reserved until such
14 14 time as this deposition, or any part thereof,
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
15 BY: KARA MILLER, ESQ. 15 may be used or sought to be used in evidence.
SARAH K. SOJA, ESQ. 16
16 Torts Branch, Civil Division
1331 Pennsylvania Avenue NW 17 * * * *
17 Room 8095N
Washington, D.C. 20004 18
18 ATTORNEYS FOR UNITED STATES OF 19 ROGER D. JOHNS, RDR, CRR Certified Court
AMERICA
19 20 Reporter, for the State of Louisiana,
20 UNITED STATES ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS
BY: JENNIFER LABOURDETTE, ESQ.
21 officiated in administering the oath to the
21 7400 Leake Avenue 22 witness.
New Orleans, Louisiana
22 ATTORNEYS FOR USACE 23
23 24
24
25 25
Page 3 Page 5
1 APPEARANCES CONTINUED: 1 INDEX
2 PAGE
2 3 Exhibit 1.................................. 10
Exhibit 2................................. 160
3 4 Exhibit 3................................. 161
VIDEO BY: Ken Hart Exhibit 4................................. 161
5 Exhibit 5................................. 175
4 Hart Video of Louisiana Exhibit 6................................. 181
5 6 NED-275-14................................ 181
Number 7.................................. 184
6 7 NED-27519................................. 185
7 REPORTED BY: ROGER D. JOHNS, RMR, CRR, CSR Exhibit 8................................. 187
8 NED-275-56................................ 187
Certified Court Reporter, Exhibit 9................................. 188
9 NED-275-77................................ 188
8 State of Louisiana Exhibit 10................................ 190
9 10 NED-275-79................................ 190
Exhibit 11................................ 190
10 11 NED-275-81................................ 190
11 Exhibit 12................................ 191
12 NED-275-88................................ 191
12 Exhibit 13................................ 193
13 13 NED-275-90................................ 193
Exhibit 14................................ 194
14 14 NED-275-95................................ 194
15 Exhibit 15................................ 196
15 NED-275-139............................... 196
16 Exhibit 16................................ 199
17 16 NED-275-10................................ 199
Exhibit 17................................ 208
18 17 Exhibit 18................................ 227
19........................................ 256
19 18 Exhibit 20................................ 287
20 19
20
21 21
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:.................. 7
22 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:................ 286
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:................ 290
24 23
24
25 25
2 (Pages 2 to 5)
Page 6 Page 8
1 VIDEO OPERATOR: 1 Q. It's a very informal procedure,
2 This is the videotaped deposition 2 basically a question and answer period wherein
3 of Louis Britsch III. This deposition 3 I'm going to be asking you questions; however,
4 is being taken on February 5th, 2009, 4 you have been placed under oath so it's as if
5 In Re: Katrina Canal Breaches 5 you were in Court and you must tell the
6 Consolidated Litigation, the Robinson 6 truth. Do you understand that?
7 case. We're located at 400 Poydras 7 A. I understand.
8 Street, Suite 900, in New Orleans, 8 Q. One of the things that's important
9 Louisiana. 9 to do is to understand that the Court Reporter
10 The Court Reporter is Roger Johns 10 is taking everything down, taking down
11 with Johns, Pendleton. 11 everything that's said here and will produce a
12 Would Counsel please introduce 12 transcript. It's like a booklet that you'll
13 themselves. 13 have a chance to read and decide whether what
14 MR. JOANEN: 14 was taken down was accurate. Do you
15 Scott Joanen on behalf of the 15 understand that?
16 Plaintiffs. 16 A. I understand.
17 MR. TAYLOR: 17 Q. One of the things that allows for us
18 Charles Taylor on behalf of the 18 to have a clean transcript is to allow me to
19 individual Plaintiffs. 19 finish my questions before you answer and,
20 MS. MILLER: 20 likewise, I'll try and grant you the same
21 I am Kara Miller for the United 21 courtesy in allowing you to finish your
22 States. 22 question before I start with my next
23 MS. SOJA: 23 question. Okay?
24 I am Sarah Soja for the 24 A. I understand.
25 Department of the Army and the United 25 Q. Also, I'd ask you to give me verbal
Page 7 Page 9
1 States. 1 responses such as yeses and nos, not nods of
2 MS. LABOURDETTE: 2 the heads and shakes and "uh-huh" and "uh-uh",
3 Jennifer Labourdette on behalf of 3 because we want to make sure the Court
4 the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers. 4 Reporter takes everything down accurately,
5 VIDEO OPERATOR: 5 because this transcript may be used later and
6 Thank you. Would the Court 6 we don't want it to be unclear and people not
7 Reporter please swear in the witness. 7 understand what was being said.
8 LOUIS D. BRITSCH III, 8 Do you understand that as well?
9 140 Helois, Metairie, Louisiana 70005, after 9 A. Yes.
10 having been duly sworn by the before-mentioned 10 Q. Also, if at any time you feel that
11 court reporter, did testify as follows: 11 you don't understand a question I ask, either
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 12 I said it artfully or if I just slurred the
13 Q. Mr. Britsch, my name is Scott 13 words and you don't understand it, just ask me
14 Joanen. I'm an attorney here on behalf of the 14 to repeat and I will be glad to do so or I'll
15 Plaintiffs in the MRGO Robinson case, which is 15 ask the Court Reporter to read it back to
16 case number 06-2268. And the purpose we asked 16 you. Do you understand that?
17 you to come here today is to ask you a number 17 A. Yes.
18 of questions about not only your background, 18 Q. Also, I don't know how long we will
19 but primarily about the report that you've 19 take today, but if at any time you need to
20 issued in this litigation. Okay? 20 take a break, whether it be for water,
21 You'll have to answer -- 21 restroom break, just to stretch your legs,
22 A. Correct. 22 whatever it is, that's fine. I would simply
23 Q. -- yes. Have you ever given a 23 ask that you allow me -- answer the question
24 deposition before? 24 that's posed, if there is one, before you ask
25 A. No. 25 for the break. Okay?
3 (Pages 6 to 9)
Page 10 Page 12
1 A. Yes. 1 they're -- they're -- something comes up that
2 Q. As I had said earlier, I have a 2 they would be useful.
3 telephone conference I am required to attend 3 Q. Do you know whether any of those
4 with the Court at 10:30, so I am going to try 4 maps would be responsive to the items of
5 and push on until about 10:30 if we can and 5 inquiry, the 16 items of inquiry listed on
6 then we'll break. And we'll from there break, 6 Exhibit A?
7 push on until about lunch, and if we need to 7 A. They may be.
8 go after lunch we'll come back after a lunch 8 Q. Okay. As the deposition rolls on,
9 break. Is that okay? 9 we'll be going through this Exhibit A. Let me
10 A. Yes. 10 just first get an understanding of your
11 Q. I understand that you do live here 11 background.
12 in New Orleans so we don't have to worry about 12 Do you have a resume or curriculum
13 you catching any planes or anything this 13 vitae with you today?
14 afternoon. Is that correct? 14 A. No, but it's in my report.
15 A. Yes. 15 Q. You're from -- Are you from New
16 Q. Do you have any other appointments 16 Orleans, Louisiana?
17 or anything like that that will limit the 17 A. I was born in New Orleans,
18 ability of you to sit here until 5:00 o'clock? 18 Louisiana.
19 A. No. 19 Q. And with whom are you currently
20 Q. I would ask you to look at the 20 employed?
21 Notice of Deposition that I placed before 21 A. U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, New
22 you. And for the record, I am marking this as 22 Orleans District.
23 Exhibit 1. 23 Q. And how long have you been with the
24 Have you ever seen this document 24 Corps of Engineers, New Orleans District?
25 before? 25 A. Since 1990.
Page 11 Page 13
1 A. Yes. 1 Q. When you were hired by the Corps of
2 Q. And when was the first time that you 2 Engineers, was it with the -- through the New
3 saw this document? 3 Orleans District or were you with another
4 A. This morning. 4 branch and then worked your way over?
5 Q. Okay. I would like you to turn to 5 A. I started with the Coastal
6 the back of it, it would be the third page, 6 Engineering Research Center in Vicksburg,
7 you'll see there is an Exhibit A. Did you 7 Mississippi, Waterways Experiment Station,
8 have a chance to review this Exhibit A as well 8 which is part of the Corps of Engineers, in
9 this morning? 9 1984.
10 A. This letter? 10 Q. What is your current job title?
11 Q. The Exhibit A, which is attached -- 11 A. I'm a supervisory geologist.
12 A. Yes. Yes. 12 Q. When you were hired in Vicksburg in
13 Q. -- to the deposition. And this 13 1984, did you have any specialized degrees
14 Exhibit A is documents that we have requested 14 over and above a general college degree such
15 that each of the witnesses who's being 15 as a Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Science?
16 deposed, each of the expert witnesses who's 16 A. I had a Master's of Science in
17 being deposed, to bring these documents with 17 geology from Tulane when I hired -- when I was
18 them or at least we have asked the government 18 hired in 1984.
19 to tell us where they are if they have in fact 19 MS. MILLER:
20 produced them, because the government gave us 20 I would just like to clarify for
21 about ten terabytes worth of information. 21 the record, I think you may have said
22 Have you brought any documents 22 1994 rather than '84.
23 with you today in preparation for your 23 MR. JOANEN:
24 testimony today? 24 I meant '84. Thank you. Yes.
25 A. I brought a couple of maps in case 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
4 (Pages 10 to 13)
Page 14 Page 16
1 Q. In '84 you hired with Vicksburg, you 1 A. I became more involved in the
2 already had a Master of Science in geology? 2 engineering geology, mapping of coastal
3 A. Correct. 3 Louisiana, and that's also when I was the
4 Q. What was your undergraduate degree? 4 principal investigator of the Corps of
5 A. Geology. 5 Engineers' land loss study that was funded by
6 Q. When did you obtain that? 6 the New Orleans District.
7 A. 1981. 7 Q. The land loss study, was that ever
8 Q. And from what institution? 8 published? Was it ever published -- was there
9 A. Nicholls. Nicholls State 9 a publication resulting from the land loss
10 University. 10 study?
11 Q. When you first started in 1984, what 11 A. Yes, there was a couple of Corps of
12 was your job description? 12 Engineers publications and it was also
13 A. I was a research physical 13 published in the Journal of Coastal Research.
14 scientist. 14 Q. Do you know what year that was
15 MS. MILLER: 15 published in the Journal of Coastal Research?
16 Again, I think you meant '84. 16 A. I don't recall.
17 MR. JOANEN: 17 Q. Do you remember what years the Corps
18 I did. I'm sorry. I'm moving 18 of Engineers publications would have been
19 too quickly here. I'm trying to roll 19 issued or made public?
20 through. 20 A. I want to say 1987 I think was the
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 21 first -- the first one.
22 Q. In 1984 you were a research -- 22 Q. In southeastern Louisiana there is a
23 A. Physical scientist. 23 basin referred to as the Lake Pontchartrain
24 Q. -- physical scientist. And can you 24 basin. Are you familiar with that term?
25 describe in layman's terms what that would 25 A. Yes.
Page 15 Page 17
1 entail? 1 Q. And can you define what the Lake
2 A. Well, I worked for the Barrier 2 Pontchartrain basin, what area that covers?
3 Island Work Unit and my work was related to 3 A. I think on the north it's bounded by
4 barrier island processes, barrier island 4 the pleistocene upland terraces. It runs
5 migration. I also was the co-investigator on 5 south to the Mississippi River and then
6 a study of the geomorphic history of 6 everything east of the Mississippi River down
7 Terrebonne marsh, which is in Terrebonne 7 to I think it's Baptiste Colette on the west.
8 Parish, Louisiana. 8 Q. Would the -- According to your
9 Q. And how long did you hold the 9 deposition, would the Lake Pontchartrain basin
10 position of research physical scientist? 10 include the Reach 1, Reach 2, and Reach 3
11 A. Approximately two and a half years. 11 areas of the MRGO, Mississippi River Gulf
12 Q. And what was your next title? 12 Outlet?
13 A. I was a research geologist for the 13 A. Yes.
14 Geotechnical Laboratory also at the Waterways 14 Q. The land loss study that you were
15 Experiment Station. A different lab, the same 15 taking part in you, and you said that the
16 facility. 16 first publication was roughly around 1987, did
17 Q. As a research geologist as opposed 17 that land loss study include the Lake
18 to a research physical scientist, was that a 18 Pontchartrain basin?
19 promotion or was that just a change in job 19 A. Yes.
20 duties? 20 Q. And was your name listed as one of
21 A. It was a change in job duties, but 21 the authors or co-authors of that study?
22 it was also a promotion. 22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In changing your job duties, what 23 Q. Do you remember how many other
24 were the new job duties you had as a research 24 people were listed as authors or co-authors?
25 geologist? 25 A. I think the initial study, there
5 (Pages 14 to 17)
Page 18 Page 20
1 were two other co-authors. 1 study. You know, the land loss study wasn't a
2 Q. And do you recall their names? 2 one year thing. It progressed over several
3 A. Burton Kemp and Joseph Dunbar. 3 years.
4 Q. Were those individuals Corps of 4 Q. Do you know how the land loss study
5 Engineers employees? 5 is funded?
6 A. Yes. One is a retired Corps of 6 A. Initially it was funded by the New
7 Engineers employee at this time and one still 7 Orleans District by -- you know, through
8 works for the Engineering Research Development 8 several -- Several projects, you know,
9 Center in Vicksburg. 9 contributed funds to fund the study. In the
10 Q. How long did you remain a research 10 later years it actually received funding, some
11 geologist? 11 from CWPPRA, which is the Coastal Wetlands
12 A. Until 1990 when I moved to New 12 Protection -- Planning Protection Restoration
13 Orleans to work for the New Orleans District. 13 Act. And again, certain projects that
14 Q. And what was the purpose for you 14 actually were located in areas where we were
15 transferring to New Orleans? 15 doing the land loss mapping contributed funds
16 A. Moved back where I -- back home. I 16 to perform that mapping.
17 was originally from New Orleans. 17 Q. Was there a time frame by which new
18 Q. In order to move from Vicksburg to 18 land loss studies were instigated?
19 New Orleans, is there an interview process 19 MS. MILLER:
20 that takes place such that you're applying for 20 I object to the form.
21 an open position? Or is it more a process 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
22 where you interact with people in the area, in 22 Q. Do you understand the question?
23 the New Orleans District and they contact you 23 A. Could you ask me again?
24 to fill a specific need they have? 24 Q. Sure. I know you said like in 1987
25 A. I applied for a position here in New 25 y'all published the results of your land loss
Page 19 Page 21
1 Orleans. 1 study. Then you said there was an ongoing
2 Q. And the position you applied for, 2 process where the studies would be done.
3 did it have a title? 3 After the '87 publication was there another
4 A. Geologist. 4 publication that resulted from another study?
5 Q. And was there an interview process 5 A. Yes. What prompted another study
6 that took place in this hiring? 6 was the availability of another coastwide
7 A. I was familiar with the person 7 mission of aerial photography that allowed us
8 hiring the job, so it was just an application 8 to, you know, process another data point, in
9 to, you know, an existing job announcement. 9 other words. The first study ended with a
10 Q. Did the opportunity for you to 10 1983 data point. Subsequent to that a 1990
11 become a geologist in the New Orleans 11 flight was done, so we updated that -- the
12 District, did that entail a promotion for you 12 initial study with the 1990 data. And then
13 or was a lateral move just allowing you to 13 subsequent to that, a 2001 flight was
14 come home? 14 performed, and that's the last, you know,
15 A. A lateral move. 15 publication we have, is related to the 2001
16 Q. When you became a geologist in New 16 flight.
17 Orleans District, what were some of your job 17 Q. And just to try and learn your
18 responsibilities? 18 vernacular, you use the term "data points".
19 A. I was in -- The Geology Section is 19 That's when the flights would take place,
20 part of the Geotechnical Branch, so we do a 20 that's when the photographs are obtained, and
21 lot of engineering geology, constructing 21 that's the data you utilized to do your study;
22 geologic profiles, working, you know, with the 22 is that correct?
23 geotechnical engineers on foundations, 23 A. Yes.
24 performing borings, borings and testing, and I 24 Q. Just so I understand the testimony,
25 also continued my work with the land loss 25 '83 was a data point, '90 was a data point,
6 (Pages 18 to 21)
Page 22 Page 24
1 and 2001 was a data point. Is that correct? 1 with the end data point of 2001?
2 A. Those are the end data points. The 2 A. No.
3 total study incorporates 1932, 1958, 1974, 3 Q. And why was there no report issued
4 1983, and 1990 and 2001. 4 as a result of that end data point?
5 Q. The land loss study that you first 5 A. There was no written report that was
6 became involved with which resulted in the -- 6 -- We did publish the map, the actual map
7 and I am using '87 because that's the number 7 data on a website and there's some -- some
8 you said. I am not holding you to it, just an 8 literature actually posted on the maps. But
9 approximation. That would have been a result 9 we didn't get the funding to produce a
10 of the '83 end data point? 10 separate, you know, publication from that
11 A. Correct. 11 data.
12 Q. Do you know -- In 1990 there was an 12 Q. Do you recall when the -- what year
13 end data point. Was there a land loss study 13 the written report that you and Joseph Dunbar
14 commenced after that? 14 would have produced that resulted from the
15 A. We did an update with the 2001 data 15 1990 end data point?
16 subsequent to the 1990. 16 A. I don't recall the date.
17 Q. Okay. Maybe that wasn't a good 17 Q. Can you give me an approximation?
18 question. In 1990 when you had the end data 18 A. 1995 maybe.
19 point, was there a subsequent land loss study 19 Q. Is that roughly about four or five
20 performed by the Corps of Engineers before the 20 years? Is that the -- Would that be about the
21 2001 end data point? 21 average time frame it takes for the Corps to
22 A. We produced a report using the 1990 22 produce such a report, written report?
23 data. 23 MS. MILLER:
24 Q. Do you know if that report was 24 Objection.
25 published? 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
Page 23 Page 25
1 A. As a Corps report, yes. 1 Q. If you know.
2 Q. And were you listed as an author or 2 A. I don't know.
3 co-author in that Corps report that followed 3 Q. The reason I am asking is because we
4 the 1990 -- 4 had an '83 flight and an '87 -- about '87 and
5 A. Yes. 5 then we had a '90 flight, and about '95. It
6 Q. -- end data? Do you know how many 6 just seems with those two, that you were
7 other authors or co-authors were listed in 7 involved with those roughly about the same
8 that written report? 8 amount of time. Is there any similarity that
9 A. I think just one. Joe Dunbar, 9 I can draw from that, or is that just kind of
10 Joseph Dunbar. 10 the way it happened to be?
11 Q. And that report, would that be 11 A. Again, I'm not sure I'm remembering
12 available, to your knowledge, on a Corps 12 the exact dates correctly. They're referenced
13 website or on the Internet? 13 in my report, so I don't want to infer
14 A. Yes. 14 something that may not -- I may not have been
15 Q. And did that report resulting from 15 accurate with the dates.
16 the 1990 data end point, did that include land 16 Q. No, I am not trying to hold you to
17 loss studies incorporating the Lake 17 the dates. I am just trying to get an
18 Pontchartrain basin? 18 understanding for the process by which you and
19 A. Yes. 19 the Corps go through analyzing the end data
20 Q. And then you said there would have 20 points in the land loss maps and then
21 been another flight in 2001 which would be 21 producing a report.
22 another end data point; correct? 22 A. It's hard to compare this to a
23 A. Yes. 23 normal, or another Corps report, because this
24 Q. Was there a written report that 24 involved -- it's very labor intensive,
25 resulted from a land loss study originating 25 involves photo interpretation for the whole
7 (Pages 22 to 25)
Page 26 Page 28
1 coast and the only people doing the 1 issued?
2 interpretation were Joseph Dunbar and myself. 2 A. They came out at the same time, the
3 So, you know, it's not your normal report. 3 maps and the report.
4 Q. Okay. In the work that you and Mr. 4 Q. And I still don't understand why the
5 Dunbar were doing on that report, was that 5 procedure after 2001 would be different than
6 your sole responsibility at that time, or was 6 had taken place in 1995. Do you know why it
7 that just an additional responsibility you had 7 would be different?
8 as a geologist for the New Orleans District? 8 A. It wasn't -- It wasn't part of the
9 A. That was an additional 9 initial proposal.
10 responsibility. 10 Q. Who would have initiated that
11 Q. Was the ability of you to produce 11 proposal? Would it have been the Corps of
12 that second report influenced in any way by 12 Engineers?
13 funding such that there wasn't sufficient 13 A. Well, we proposed to actually
14 funding, you couldn't work on it? 14 perform the mapping and that's what was
15 MS. MILLER: 15 approved. We didn't propose, you know,
16 I object to form. 16 another report to go with it.
17 THE WITNESS: 17 Q. When you say "we proposed", who do
18 Funding was set up at the 18 you define as "we"?
19 beginning of each year for a specific 19 A. Joe Dunbar and myself.
20 amount of portion of the mapping to be 20 Q. And who did you propose it to?
21 completed. So, you know, we completed 21 A. Various project managers at the
22 the mapping that was proposed for each 22 Corps of Engineers who would fund the mapping.
23 year. 23 Q. Okay. Were there particular
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 24 projects that you would focus on? For
25 Q. Your 2001 end data point, did that 25 example, for the Lake Pontchartrain basin,
Page 27 Page 29
1 study include the Lake Pontchartrain basin? 1 would you go to the MRGO project manager and
2 A. Yes. 2 look for money from him?
3 Q. As you sit here today, do you know 3 A. Correct. Regional -- Projects
4 whether there's an intent to produce a written 4 within the region that we're doing the mapping
5 report resulting from the 2001 end data point? 5 were potential, you know, sources of funds to
6 A. Not at this time. 6 do that mapping.
7 Q. And is that because of lack of 7 Q. Do you need to get approval to do a
8 funding? 8 statewide coastal mapping? Do you need to get
9 A. No. 9 approval from project managers handling
10 Q. Do you know why? 10 projects throughout the coastal region, or
11 A. I don't think there's a -- there's a 11 could you go to the MRGO project manager and
12 need. You know, it hasn't been requested. 12 ask him to fund your entire project?
13 Nobody's, you know, shown a need -- need for 13 A. No, we only asked project managers
14 it or requested it. 14 with projects in the areas we were working on
15 Q. For updated land loss for the state 15 to fund that portion of the map.
16 of Louisiana? 16 Q. For the 2001 end data point project,
17 A. Not updated land loss. You asked 17 do you recall who the project manager was for
18 for a report from the 2001. Like I said, the 18 the MRGO that you would have made your
19 maps have been produced. So -- and the data 19 proposal to?
20 is, you know, available to perform analyses. 20 A. I think it was Edmond Russo.
21 So there's not going -- there's not planned to 21 Q. And did he sign off or approve the
22 have a separate report to go with that map. 22 proposal that you presented to him?
23 Q. The mid '90s report that was 23 A. It wasn't a written -- I mean, it
24 produced, were there also maps and data made 24 was a written proposal, but there was nothing
25 available prior to a written report being 25 that had he had to sign off on or not. But I
8 (Pages 26 to 29)
Page 30 Page 32
1 think he did -- I do recall him funding a 1 assess for each quadrangle?
2 portion of the mapping in the Pontchartrain 2 A. It varied depending on the land area
3 basin. 3 in that quadrangle. Some quadrangles only
4 Q. Would he fund the portion only -- 4 have a very small portion of land, therefore,
5 How would he define or how would you define 5 the mapping was -- was minor compared to a
6 the area that he was going to fund? 6 quadrangle which was entirely land, you know,
7 A. I think we just tried to, you know, 7 more land surface. So it was a pretty broad
8 identify areas that we thought were contiguous 8 variation.
9 with or in the vicinity of a Corps project and 9 Q. Okay. And what are the parameters,
10 that information would be useful to a project 10 the broad variation? Low to high value.
11 manager in doing the -- you know, in their 11 A. Maybe 7,000 to 15,000 just as a
12 normal duties. 12 general.
13 Q. In determining what portion the MRGO 13 Q. Right. And that's per 15 minute
14 would be assessed or you would ask for in your 14 quadrangle?
15 proposal, would there have been an 15 A. Correct.
16 understanding of the total square miles that 16 Q. And the more land that you would
17 the MRGO footprint entailed in the Lake 17 have to map, the more would be on the upper
18 Pontchartrain basin? 18 range of the value for each quadrangle, and
19 A. No. 19 the less land you had to map would be on the
20 MS. MILLER: 20 lower range of the quadrangle; correct?
21 Object to the form. 21 A. Yes.
22 (Whereupon a discussion was held 22 Q. Price per quadrangle? The 2001
23 off the record.) 23 study that you were involved with, did you
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 24 instigate that yourself or did someone in your
25 Q. Would there be a process you would 25 department say "We would like to have you
Page 31 Page 33
1 go through to find out whether Edmond Russo 1 undertake this project"?
2 was being requested for a pro rata share of 2 A. I think some of both. I think, you
3 the entire Lake Pontchartrain basin? 3 know, people that had the previous studies
4 MS. MILLER: 4 asked, you know, "Are you going to complete
5 Objection. 5 another one and at a future date?" So we were
6 THE WITNESS: 6 aware that people were interested in having
7 No. Not that I am aware of. 7 another data point. And when the flight was
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 8 completed, we, you know, we proposed to do
9 Q. Do you have an understanding as you 9 that.
10 sit here today of what the total amount of 10 Q. Do you know what instigated the
11 funding would be needed to do your land loss 11 flight in 2001?
12 study for the Lake Pontchartrain basin for 12 A. No. It was -- I want -- I think I
13 your 2001 end data point? 13 recall that it was a joint effort between, you
14 A. No. 14 know, USGS, the State, and the Corps might
15 Q. Can you give me an approximation of 15 have kicked in funds to do the flight. The
16 how much money it would entail for that 16 flight was not flown specifically for this,
17 particular portion? 17 the mapping, the land loss mapping.
18 A. It's hard to do because the mapping 18 Q. The 1990 flight, do you know who
19 was done on a 15 minute quadrangle basis, so 19 would have instigated that flight? Or by what
20 the estimates were based on how many -- how 20 process that flight would have been
21 many actual quadrangles were completed. And I 21 instigated?
22 can't recall, you know, how many quadrangles 22 A. I think the 1990 flight was actually
23 actually make up the Pontchartrain basin so I 23 funded and flown specifically for the land
24 would just be guessing. 24 loss project.
25 Q. What was the value that you would 25 Q. In this study that resulted from the
9 (Pages 30 to 33)
Page 34 Page 36
1 1990 end data point, what other agencies were 1 A. I think they reviewed it and had
2 involved besides the Corps of Engineers in 2 prints made of the photography. And one set,
3 reviewing the data that was collected during 3 one set of those prints came to us and that's
4 that flight? 4 what we used for the mapping.
5 A. When you say "data collected", what 5 Q. And what did you personally do once
6 are you specifically talking about? 6 you received that set of prints?
7 Q. I don't know what you -- when you do 7 A. Well, we, you know, check it for
8 a flight, I'm guessing you take some 8 quality and then we use it as one of the
9 photographs, but there might be some other 9 layers to continue the land loss mapping
10 information involved. But I am trying to use 10 process.
11 the term "data" to cover everything that is 11 Q. What is it that you are doing that's
12 obtained by the flight. 12 different than what the USGS was either --
13 A. I think that was a NASA flight and, 13 either had done or was doing simultaneously?
14 you know, so we paid NASA to fly the 14 A. I'm not sure what -- What are you
15 photography, correct the photography, and 15 referring to when you say what was the USGS
16 produce it, prints at a scale that we 16 doing simultaneously?
17 requested. So we were furnished with, you 17 Q. Well, you said they had reviewed it
18 know, completed color photography -- color IR 18 and they had a set of photographs and they
19 photography at a specific scale flown, you 19 gave you a print and that you looked at it for
20 know, by NASA. 20 quality, you did a quality check on it and
21 Q. And that would be by a satellite or 21 then you layered it to continue the land loss
22 by a plane like a -- 22 map progress. Do you know whether the USGS
23 A. It was a plane. 23 was doing any additional studies, or were they
24 Q. Okay. Once that data was collected 24 just maintaining the photographs as a
25 and prints to scale, were there any other 25 repository?
Page 35 Page 37
1 agencies involved in reviewing that to produce 1 A. I don't know what the USGS did with
2 reports resulting from that 1990 flight? 2 the photography.
3 MS. MILLER: 3 Q. Other than you and Mr. -- Was Mr.
4 Objection. 4 Dunbar also involved in the 2001 land loss
5 THE WITNESS: 5 study?
6 We're the only ones I am aware of 6 A. Yes.
7 that used the photography to do the 7 Q. Other than you and Mr. Dunbar, were
8 land loss mapping. 8 there any other individuals at the Corps of
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 9 Engineers that were involved in both the
10 Q. The 2001 flight, was that also flown 10 quality check and the layering of the
11 by NASA? 11 photographs to continue the land loss map
12 A. I think so. 12 process?
13 Q. I don't want you to guess, so if 13 A. We were the only two that actually
14 you're not sure it's better if you say you're 14 did the mapping.
15 not sure. 15 Q. In your either experiences working
16 A. I'm not sure. 16 with the Corps or prior to working with the
17 Q. Okay. If you really had to know the 17 Corps, did you take any cartography classes to
18 answer to that, where would you go to find 18 become an expert in mapping?
19 that information? 19 A. I have -- In undergraduate school I
20 A. I think the USGS was in charge of, 20 have taken an air photo interpretation
21 you know, setting up that flight and they 21 course. Other than that, it's just been
22 received the photography. So that's who I 22 experience over the years. A lot of the
23 would verify it with. 23 geologic mapping work that we have done uses
24 Q. And do you know what the USGS did 24 aerial photography. Also the barrier island,
25 with the photography once they received it? 25 you know, migration work, all of that's done
10 (Pages 34 to 37)
Page 38 Page 40
1 from aerial photography, so it's just 1 discussion on land loss mapping in coastal
2 experience over time. 2 Louisiana. One of I think five panel
3 Q. Have you taken any courses, or like 3 members.
4 in the legal field we have what's called 4 Q. Do you remember what year that would
5 continuing legal education where you go to a 5 have been?
6 seminar and they teach you about changes and 6 A. I do not.
7 updates? Have you taken any seminars or 7 Q. Do you remember what decade that
8 continuing education programs regarding air 8 would have been?
9 photography interpretation or cartography? 9 A. The '90s.
10 A. I have been to -- done several 10 Q. Do you remember who the President
11 workshops related to, you know, air photo 11 was, the President of the United States was
12 interpretation, photogrammetry, you know, GIS 12 when you attended that?
13 development with photography. 13 A. No.
14 Q. You used a term "several". How many 14 Q. In each of the -- You said you went
15 would you say several would be? 15 to maybe two more that the USGS sponsored.
16 A. Three or four. 16 Were those also on remote sensing?
17 Q. Of those three or four, when's the 17 A. I think that's, you know, the
18 first workshop that you went to? 18 generic title, was, you know, remote sensing
19 A. I would say in the '80s, the mid 19 workshop. I think it's -- you know, for the
20 '80s. I really don't remember the exact 20 yearly meeting.
21 date. 21 Q. Are there sub-specialties to remote
22 Q. Do you recall who sponsored that? 22 sensing?
23 A. It was I want to say USGS in 23 A. Yes.
24 Lafayette. It was a remote sensing workshop. 24 Q. And what would some of those
25 Q. Can you tell me what remote sensing 25 sub-topics be?
Page 39 Page 41
1 is? 1 A. I mean, just the different types.
2 A. Sensing, you know, air photography, 2 You know, photogrammetry, you know, photo
3 something that's done remotely, satellite 3 interpretation of satellite imagery and the
4 imagery, aerial photography. Taking pictures 4 processing of that data. So it's not just --
5 or satellite images from remote areas. 5 it's how you take it, how you process it, how
6 Q. Did you make any presentations at 6 you interpret it. So there's different phases
7 that first workshop in the 1980s? 7 of what you could do.
8 A. Not that I remember. 8 Q. Is it your experience that the
9 Q. Were there any tests that were given 9 seminars that are put on on a yearly basis by
10 at the end of the workshop? 10 USGS, that the science technology increases so
11 A. No. 11 much that you would go every year or is it
12 Q. Were there any awards or 12 something that you would look to go to only on
13 commendations that you would have received as 13 sporadic occasions?
14 a result of your efforts in trying to 14 A. I attended on sporadic.
15 understand remote sensing at the -- 15 Q. And of the seminars that you have
16 A. No. 16 attended, you said that you are on a panel
17 Q. -- remote sensing workshop? 17 discussion on land loss once in the '90s.
18 A. No. 18 Were there any other times that you have been
19 Q. When was the next one, the second 19 on a panel discussion?
20 workshop you were going to, or seminar? 20 A. At those particular --
21 A. The USGS sponsored the remote 21 Q. Yes. Yes, sir.
22 sensing workshop yearly and I think I attended 22 A. No.
23 at least two more over the next several 23 Q. The panel discussion that you were
24 years. I'm not sure of the exact dates. And 24 part of in the '90s, were you asked to be on
25 I was, on one of those two, on a panel 25 the panel discussion prior to agreeing to
11 (Pages 38 to 41)
Page 42 Page 44
1 attend? Or once they found out you were 1 was -- Association of Engineering
2 attending, they thought you're a good person 2 Geologists had a meeting here
3 to have in this mix to have a lively 3 post-Katrina and I -- I met with them
4 discussion? 4 and discussed, you know, not just land
5 A. I was asked prior to attending. 5 loss, but, you know, other issues of
6 Q. Was there a particular sub-specialty 6 -- you know, geology issues here
7 that you were focusing on at the panel 7 locally.
8 discussion? 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
9 A. It was land loss mapping in coastal 9 Q. As part of holding the job that you
10 Louisiana. 10 do with the Corps of Engineers, are you
11 Q. Not having attended one of these and 11 required to attend a certain number of
12 not knowing how it works, are people in the 12 conferences or seminars or other educational
13 discussion assigned to have a point and then 13 programs?
14 another person assigned to have a counterpoint 14 A. No.
15 and have an argument back and forth, or is it 15 Q. The seminars and conferences that
16 a question and answer period where you, having 16 you attend, are there materials that are
17 more experience than perhaps the attendees, 17 produced to you to study and learn new
18 would just be explaining to those attendees 18 techniques regarding land loss, cartography
19 what the current state of the science is? 19 and mapping?
20 A. I think it was an interaction with 20 MS. MILLER:
21 the attendees. 21 Objection.
22 Q. Have there been any seminars that 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
23 you have attended that the USGS has sponsored 23 Q. And we may not have covered this.
24 since the 1990s? 24 Oftentimes she will object to the form of my
25 A. No. 25 question. A lot of times what she is doing is
Page 43 Page 45
1 Q. Have there been any seminars that 1 preserving the record for a later point.
2 you have attended regarding cartography and 2 Unless she tells you not to answer -- if I ask
3 land loss since the 1990s by a group other 3 something about your discussions you've had
4 than the USGS? 4 with her -- generally you'll be able to answer
5 A. No. 5 the question. It's something that we are
6 Q. So is it fair to say that you have 6 doing just to preserve the record.
7 not attended any seminars regarding land loss 7 A. Not specifically. But it's a --
8 since the 1990s? 8 it's a place to, you know, to talk with other
9 A. I would say workshops, but I have 9 professionals in the field and you also gain
10 attended, you know, conferences and 10 some insight into new technologies and things
11 professional meetings where land loss and, you 11 that you can explore later.
12 know, other issues are discussed. 12 Q. As you had said that your air photo
13 Q. And what are some of those 13 interpretation, most of your skills had been
14 conferences that you have attended since the 14 learned as a result of your experience. Is
15 1990s? 15 there a level of expertise that is designated
16 A. Association of Engineering 16 in the community such as you're an interpreter
17 Geologists meetings. There was one here in 17 1 or interpreter 2? Is there any type of
18 New Orleans last year. 18 names or titles that are given or earned?
19 Q. Are you an engineer? 19 A. Not that I am aware of.
20 A. No. 20 Q. I know that you said that you took
21 MS. MILLER: 21 over the position of geologist in 1990 at the
22 Sir, were you finished with your 22 New Orleans District.
23 last answer? 23 A. Yes.
24 THE WITNESS: 24 Q. Is that correct? Have you changed
25 I was going to say that I also 25 titles, gotten a promotion, lateral move or
12 (Pages 42 to 45)
Page 46 Page 48
1 anything like that other than geologist since 1 had included in it geologists from the Corps
2 1990? 2 of Engineers?
3 A. I have been in the same office since 3 A. Yes.
4 1990. I have been promoted since 1990. 4 Q. Do you know whether those geologists
5 Q. The promotion that you would have 5 were from the New Orleans District?
6 gotten, is that a promotion in title? And, if 6 A. They were not.
7 so, what was the new title that you would have 7 Q. Do you know where they were from?
8 had? 8 A. Joe Dunbar from ERDC is a geologist
9 A. The only change has been I'm a 9 and he was on the IPET team.
10 supervisory geologist now. Before, I was just 10 Q. I guess my next question, were there
11 a geologist. 11 any land loss mapping specialists on the IPET
12 Q. And what is the difference in your 12 team?
13 responsibility between a geologist and now 13 A. I would consider Joe Dunbar an
14 being a supervisory geologist? 14 expert.
15 A. I would say I supervise the other 15 Q. I know it's a simple question, but
16 geologists in our work unit. 16 I've got to make a record. So that's what I
17 Q. And when did you become a 17 am asking. Joe Dunbar was a land loss mapping
18 supervisory geologist? 18 specialist that was on the IPET team; correct?
19 A. I'm trying to recall, because it's 19 A. Correct. But I don't know, you
20 -- I have been a supervisor and then 20 know, if that had -- you know, if he did any
21 non-supervisory and just recently, two years 21 of that as part of his work with the IPET
22 ago, put back as a supervisor. I'm not sure 22 team.
23 about the first time. Maybe 1995. 23 Q. Have you yourself read the IPET
24 Q. Why is it that you would go from a 24 report?
25 supervisor geologist then to a geologist and 25 A. Portions of it.
Page 47 Page 49
1 then back up to a supervisor geologist? 1 Q. What portions do you think you have
2 A. It's a reorganization in the 2 read?
3 management structure. 3 A. The portions that pertained to the
4 Q. As a supervisor geologist, are you 4 geology of the -- at the, you know, the
5 supervising anyone that's participating in the 5 floodwall sites.
6 land loss study? 6 Q. Were you ever asked to comment on
7 A. No. 7 the IPET report regarding geology portions at
8 Q. Did you participate on behalf of the 8 the floodwall sites?
9 Corps of Engineers in the IPET study after 9 A. I mean, Joe Dunbar and I discussed,
10 Hurricane Katrina? 10 you know, after the -- after the publication
11 A. No. 11 of, you know, his part of the report, we
12 Q. Were you able to volunteer your time 12 discussed it, but I wasn't formally asked to
13 or to offer your services for the IPET team 13 comment.
14 through the Corps of Engineers? 14 Q. When was it that you were first
15 MS. MILLER: 15 approached to produce an expert report in this
16 Objection. 16 litigation?
17 THE WITNESS: 17 A. Approximately a year and a half
18 I mean, I am not sure. That I 18 ago.
19 was there if they needed some specific 19 Q. Who approached you first?
20 information, but everything was sort 20 A. I guess Kara Miller.
21 of, you know, at their disposal and 21 Q. Had you ever met Miss Miller before?
22 they worked independently of our 22 A. No.
23 office. 23 Q. And were you approached in person or
24 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 24 were you approached by written
25 Q. Do you know whether the IPET team 25 correspondence?
13 (Pages 46 to 49)
Page 50 Page 52
1 A. Either written correspondence or a 1 should review to prepare yourself to provide
2 telephone call. I don't recall which. 2 an opinion?
3 Q. Do you recall whether you ever 3 A. No.
4 received any written correspondence regarding 4 Q. Were there any materials that you
5 being engaged to produce an expert report in 5 reviewed prior to authoring your first written
6 this litigation? 6 -- first draft of a written opinion?
7 A. I mean, we traded emails back and 7 A. I reviewed the Plaintiffs' expert
8 forth about it. I think that's as official as 8 reports. I am not sure if -- I think they
9 it got. 9 might have been draft at that time. Or the
10 Q. And the emails that you were given, 10 initial reports. And I also reviewed the
11 did you have an understanding of what your 11 Corps' experts' reports, you know, as some of
12 role was going to be and what type of report 12 that information became available.
13 you were going to have to produce? 13 Q. And this was a year and a half ago
14 A. I had never done one before so I 14 that this all took place?
15 think it evolved, you know, as we got into it. 15 A. Not the Corps' experts, but some of
16 Q. What was your initial understanding 16 the -- I think some of the initial Plaintiffs'
17 of what your responsibilities were going to 17 reports. Before I produced any written report
18 be? 18 I was able to review some of theirs.
19 A. To supply information on my area of 19 Q. Do you recall what reports you
20 expertise in this case, which is the land 20 reviewed?
21 loss, you know, in and around the vicinity of 21 A. The report by Fitzgerald, one by Day
22 the MRGO. 22 and Schafer. The one by Paul Kemp. That's
23 Q. Did you have any understanding of 23 the three I think from the Plaintiffs that I
24 what the scope of the litigation entailed 24 reviewed.
25 prior to being contacted from Mrs. Miller? 25 Q. Were there any other Plaintiffs'
Page 51 Page 53
1 A. I was aware of, you know, in general 1 reports that you reviewed other than Mr.
2 what the litigation was about. 2 Fitzgerald's, the Day and Schafer report, and
3 Q. And what was your understanding in 3 Mr. Kemp's report?
4 general of what the litigation was about? 4 A. No.
5 A. The effect that the MRGO had on the 5 Q. Do you recall the date of the
6 surge and the wave heights and durations of 6 Fitzgerald report that you reviewed, the date
7 flooding in the vicinity of the MRGO. 7 on the cover sheet of the report, the date of
8 Q. And how did you get that 8 publication?
9 information? Is that something discussed with 9 A. It was a 2007, but I am not sure of
10 your peers and colleagues or was that 10 the exact month. So it was -- the Fitzgerald
11 something that you had, being a citizen of New 11 report was also a 2007.
12 Orleans reading the newspapers, understanding 12 Q. Okay.
13 what was happening in your community? 13 A. I don't recall Kemp.
14 A. Both. 14 Q. How about the Day and Schafer
15 Q. Had there been any meetings within 15 report? Do you recall?
16 the Corps regarding the effects the MRGO, that 16 A. 2007.
17 it had on the surge and wave heights? 17 Q. Okay. And what Corps expert reports
18 MS. MILLER: 18 did you review prior to you issuing a report?
19 Objection. 19 A. I don't think any of the Corps
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 20 reports were available prior to when I, you
21 Q. Prior -- that you participated in 21 know, issued my first written report.
22 prior to Mrs. Miller approaching you? 22 Q. So other than reviewing the
23 A. No. 23 Fitzgerald and the Day-Schafer and the Kemp
24 Q. Were you advised that there were any 24 report, you didn't review any other materials
25 types of publications or reports that you 25 prior to drafting your first, or preparing
14 (Pages 50 to 53)
Page 54 Page 56
1 your first draft of your expert report? Is 1 was a couple of the Schafer ones regarding
2 that correct? 2 cypress swamp regeneration. What other
3 A. No, I reviewed other, you know, 3 documents did you review?
4 general materials, you know, in the area. 4 A. I reviewed our land loss mapping in
5 Some of them that I -- that were referenced in 5 that area.
6 those Plaintiffs' expert reports, I reviewed 6 Q. What else?
7 some of those. 7 A. Corps work. I can't remember any
8 Q. Okay. Do you know what they were? 8 more specifics. I know there are other, you
9 A. The Penfound and Hathaway article 9 know, just general geology and environmental
10 that was referenced I think in Day and 10 reports, but I can't think of them now.
11 Schafer's report. The CEI 1972 report that 11 Q. Had you reviewed the Penfound and
12 was also referenced there. I reviewed the 12 Hathaway report prior to being engaged by Miss
13 Penland, et al land loss classification 13 Miller to produce an expert report?
14 study. I reviewed the Pontchartrain Atlas. I 14 A. No, I did not.
15 don't know the date. That's the environmental 15 Q. The CEI 1972 report, had you
16 atlas of Lake Pontchartrain. And I reviewed 16 reviewed that prior to being engaged by Miss
17 some of the engineering geology mapping 17 Miller?
18 produced by the Corps of Engineers. Reviewed 18 A. No.
19 the Frazier 1967 report on the delta 19 Q. The Penland, et al classification
20 development area. 20 study, had you reviewed that prior to being
21 Q. What else? 21 engaged by Miss Miller?
22 A. I reviewed I think a Schafer -- a 22 A. Yes.
23 couple of Schafer reports on cypress swamp 23 Q. When did you review that?
24 regeneration. 24 A. I was actually part of that
25 VIDEO OPERATOR: 25 investigation.
Page 55 Page 57
1 Excuse me, Scott. I need to go 1 Q. What was that investigation about?
2 off the record to change tapes. 2 A. Trying to understand the form and
3 This is the end of tape 1. We're 3 the -- of land loss and the processes that
4 going off the record. 4 contribute to land loss in the deltaic plain
5 (Recess.) 5 in Louisiana.
6 VIDEO OPERATOR: 6 Q. D E L T A I C? Correct?
7 This is the beginning of tape 2. 7 A. Correct.
8 We're back on the record. 8 Q. The Pontchartrain Atlas, is that
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 9 anything other than just an atlas of the Lake
10 Q. Mr. Britsch, -- I'll call you Mr. 10 Pontchartrain area?
11 Britsch. I understand you're studying for 11 A. I think it covers the Lake
12 your doctoral degree, but you hadn't received 12 Pontchartrain basin.
13 it yet. Is that correct? 13 Q. Had you reviewed that prior to being
14 A. I have received it. 14 engaged by Miss Miller?
15 Q. You have? So should I refer to you 15 A. Yes.
16 as Dr. Britsch? 16 Q. The engineering and geology mapping,
17 A. Either way. 17 had you reviewed those prior to being engaged
18 Q. You have a Ph.D.? 18 by Miss Miller?
19 A. Yes, I do. 19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Well, you earned it. I think you 20 Q. The Frazier '67 report, had you
21 ought to be called that. Dr. Britsch, you 21 reviewed that prior to being engaged by Miss
22 were telling me just now about the general 22 Miller?
23 materials that you reviewed prior to issuing 23 A. Yes.
24 your expert report. You have listed a number 24 Q. The Schafer, the couple of the
25 of them and you -- the one you stopped with 25 Schafer reports that involved cypress swamp
15 (Pages 54 to 57)
Page 58 Page 60
1 regeneration, had you reviewed those prior to 1 to review aerial photographs and determine
2 being engaged by Miss Miller? 2 whether there was marsh, scrub, or trees
3 A. One of them. 3 revealed in those?
4 Q. And under what circumstances had you 4 A. Well, throughout the entire land
5 reviewed it prior to being engaged by Miss 5 loss mapping project, you're viewing aerial
6 Miller? 6 photography and you encounter all of those
7 A. Just in general reading of, you 7 environments.
8 know, publications. 8 Q. And what is your understanding of
9 Q. Have you been involved in the 9 the difference between marsh and scrub?
10 production of any reports regarding cypress 10 A. Marsh plants are, you know, mostly
11 swamp regeneration? 11 grasses. Scrub is, you know, taller and
12 A. No. 12 usually has a mixture of woody vegetation.
13 Q. Have you studied cypress swamp 13 Q. The trees that you would review,
14 regeneration? 14 could you tell the difference between, say,
15 A. No. 15 for example, a cypress or a tupelo tree stand
16 Q. You're a Ph.D. What are you a 16 as opposed to an oak tree stand?
17 doctorate in now? 17 A. That's not my expertise.
18 A. Well, my focus was coastal geology, 18 Q. Would you be able to identify the
19 but the degree is in the -- engineering and 19 types of marsh grasses or woody vegetation and
20 applied science is what the degree program is 20 scrub? Is that within your expertise?
21 at UNO. 21 A. From aerial photography?
22 Q. I know what engineering is. What is 22 Q. Yes.
23 applied science? 23 A. Not necessarily. But certain types
24 A. Applying science to everyday 24 of plants, whether it's marsh, scrub or trees,
25 problems. Trying to solve problems using 25 grow in certain types of geologic environments
Page 59 Page 61
1 science. 1 or geologic features, and so by recognizing
2 Q. Is there a particular science that 2 certain geologic features you sort of have an
3 you use and apply to everyday problems? 3 idea of what sort of vegetation is going on.
4 A. Well, the one -- the applied science 4 Q. What do you mean by geologic
5 that I was working with is the geo sciences, 5 features?
6 you know, geology. 6 A. Things such as natural levees, beach
7 Q. And the land loss mapping in the 7 ridges, shorelines, shoreline features. So
8 area, you had taken part in that so you were 8 from the aerial photography you can interpret
9 familiar with that prior to being engaged by 9 the surface geology and have an idea about the
10 Miss Miller; correct? 10 elevation, and you know certain -- certain
11 A. Right. 11 plant types inhabit certain environments, so
12 Q. Other than those materials, you said 12 if you know the environment, it gives you at
13 that you may have reviewed others but you 13 least some clue as to what kind of vegetation
14 don't know for sure whether you have, or you 14 you're looking at. Again, maybe not the
15 can't remember them right now? 15 specific species, but whether it --, you know,
16 A. Yes. 16 marsh plants, woody vegetation, trees.
17 Q. As part of your training and 17 Q. Have you in your experience ever
18 experience, have you ever developed any 18 studied the interaction of salinity with the
19 expertise in reviewing aerial photography to 19 various types of vegetation that you'll see in
20 determine the types of plant life that is in a 20 the geography such as marsh, scrub, and trees?
21 particular area? 21 MS. MILLER:
22 A. Only in a context of where the plant 22 Objection.
23 life is, you know, marsh, scrub, trees, that 23 THE WITNESS:
24 sort of thing, not -- not the exact species. 24 As part of the --
25 Q. In what circumstances were you able 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
16 (Pages 58 to 61)
Page 62 Page 64
1 Q. Wait. 1 been going out there, have you seen changes to
2 MR. JOANEN: 2 the environment?
3 What what's the basis of the 3 A. Yes.
4 objection? 4 Q. How would you describe the changes
5 MS. MILLER: 5 to the environment in the MRGO area? And I
6 Vague. 6 guess we'll talk about the area -- Are you
7 MR. JOANEN: 7 familiar with the term Reach 2 of the MRGO?
8 I'm asking if he's ever studied 8 A. Yes, I think from -- Reach 2 is
9 it or in your expertise. 9 Bayou Dupre to Shell Beach? Or is that Bayou
10 THE WITNESS: 10 Bienvenue to Bayou Dupre?
11 I haven't studied salinity per 11 Q. Reach 1 what we kind of refer to in
12 se, but as part of the land loss 12 this litigation is from the Industrial Canal
13 classification study, understanding 13 to where the MRGO branches off from the GIWW.
14 the processes, salinity is one of the 14 Reach 2 is from the GIWW branch-off, going way
15 drivers or one of the contributors to 15 down, almost to the Breton Sound. And then
16 land loss that we see. So in the 16 the open area is Reach 3.
17 process of trying to determine causes 17 A. I am familiar with Reach -- the
18 of loss, salinity is one of the 18 upper portion at least of Reach 2.
19 factors that, you know, that's 19 Q. The upper portion, would that be the
20 identified as one of the stressors. 20 portion that is -- that controls -- that has
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 21 -- would that be the portion that has the
22 Q. In your experience, have you ever 22 Federal flood control levees along the MRGO?
23 studied or come to understand the impact of 23 A. Yes. Reach 2.
24 sheet flow of water over an environment? 24 Q. And you are familiar with that
25 MS. MILLER: 25 Federal flood control levee, Lake
Page 63 Page 65
1 The same objection. 1 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane
2 THE WITNESS: 2 Protection Project levee that runs along the
3 Only in the context that the 3 MRGO?
4 elevation and the land features are 4 A. Yes.
5 really what control the sheet flow. 5 Q. And is it your understanding that
6 And again, the geology of the area is 6 that goes down to approximately Verret and
7 what contributes to the elevation that 7 then turns towards -- turns I guess in a
8 you see on the landscape. So 8 southerly fashion and heads towards the river?
9 understanding that geology gives you 9 A. Yes.
10 an understanding of the hydrology, the 10 Q. That area that we're talking about
11 sheet flow and so where the water is 11 there, have you seen changes to the
12 coming from and what it's 12 environment since -- in the 18 years that you
13 controlling. 13 have been going out there?
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 14 A. Yes.
15 Q. As part of your land loss mapping 15 Q. And how would you describe the
16 duties, have you gone out to the MRGO area, 16 changes to the environment?
17 St. Bernard area, the marsh area? 17 A. I think there's more water.
18 A. I am familiar with that marsh area 18 Vegetation, you know, not as -- not as lush.
19 and I have been there many times. 19 Less aquatic vegetation.
20 Q. When you say "many", how many is 20 Q. Okay. Would you describe that, the
21 many in your ten years, or actually it's 18 21 fact that there's more water, the vegetation
22 years now since you have been at the New 22 is not as lush, and there's less aquatic
23 Orleans District? 23 vegetation as a decline in the environment in
24 A. Hundreds. 24 that area?
25 Q. Have you, in the 18 years you have 25 MS. MILLER:
17 (Pages 62 to 65)
Page 66 Page 68
1 Objection. Vague. 1 occurring event; right? Historically?
2 THE WITNESS: 2 A. Yes, there's usually cycles of
3 I guess decline in what way? I'm 3 regression and transgression of sea level.
4 not sure what you're -- 4 Q. And basically your understanding of
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 5 the historical data available to the
6 Q. You or at least were a camp owner 6 Mississippi River, that would lead to a
7 down there? 7 natural transgression cycle for that delta;
8 A. No. 8 correct?
9 Q. You never were a camp owner down 9 MS. MILLER:
10 there? Would you say that when an area has, 10 Objection.
11 such as that, has more water, the vegetation 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
12 is not as lush, and there's less aquatic 12 Q. At this time?
13 vegetation, would you say that the area is 13 MS. MILLER:
14 improving? 14 Objection, vague.
15 A. I am not sure how you would define 15 THE WITNESS:
16 improving or declining, but I would argue -- I 16 The St. Bernard delta is in a
17 would say that that entire area is in a -- is 17 transgressive phase at this time.
18 in the destructive phase of the delta cycle 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
19 and it's subsiding and, you know, it's 19 Q. Now, you also said that there are
20 undergoing changes from natural and man-made 20 man-made factors that are also influencing the
21 factors in that area. Changes in hydrology. 21 transgression phase; correct?
22 Q. And by destructive phase, you're 22 A. No, I didn't say that.
23 talking about -- is that transgression and 23 Q. Okay. If I misunderstood, I
24 regression? 24 apologize. There are no man-made factors that
25 A. Well, it's in the destructive phase 25 are influencing the transgression stage?
Page 67 Page 69
1 of the delta cycle, which is transgression. 1 A. The transgression is the, you know,
2 (Whereupon a discussion was held 2 rising of sea level relative to the land
3 off the record.) 3 surface. You know, you can argue, there are
4 VIDEO OPERATOR: 4 discussions that people believe that man is
5 Off the record. 5 actually causing sea levels to rise from --
6 (Recess.) 6 you know, causing glacial melting and things
7 VIDEO OPERATOR: 7 like that. Locally, the subsidence is a
8 We're now back on the record. 8 natural process that's going on in the St.
9 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 9 Bernard delta. Now, some people may argue
10 Q. Back on the record. When we broke 10 that, you know, oil and gas withdrawal,
11 you were talking about that the MRGO area near 11 drainage of wetlands, things like that, you
12 Reach 2 is in a destructive phase, which is 12 know, contributes to subsidence. So from that
13 also a transgression of the delta; correct? 13 angle you might argue that it was contributing
14 A. Yes. 14 to the transgression. But the regional
15 Q. Is there a difference between the 15 transgression, you know, is going on
16 destructive phase and transgression? 16 independent.
17 A. Transgression just means that the 17 Q. Well, let focus on this regional
18 sea level is rising and moving inland. So 18 transgression. What are the factors that you
19 that doesn't necessarily have to -- anything 19 would attribute to the regional transgression
20 to do with a delta. But in this situation, 20 of the St. Bernard delta in the area that
21 the subsiding of the delta actually enhances 21 incorporates the MRGO?
22 the amount of water that's rising. So the 22 A. Natural geologic subsidence and then
23 transgression, it enhances the magnitude of 23 rising sea levels.
24 the transgression, I guess. 24 Q. And as a geologist, of course, you
25 Q. Transgression is a naturally 25 are familiar with the differences between the
18 (Pages 66 to 69)
Page 70 Page 72
1 pleistocene and holocene levels in that area; 1 you know, other estimates that are in
2 correct? 2 that ballpark.
3 A. Correct. 3 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
4 Q. Can you define for the record what 4 Q. Not being good at math and this
5 the pleistocene strata would be? 5 being your field, what would you -- if it's a
6 A. When you say would be, as far as its 6 half a foot per century, how much is that per
7 character or its nature? 7 year in inches or fractions of inches?
8 Q. If you could explain if there's a 8 A. Well, it's a -- it's a tenth of a
9 lay person, explain what "pleistocene" means. 9 foot in 20 years. So, I don't know. That's
10 A. Pleistocene is just a time period. 10 as far as I would break it down without a
11 You know, it refers to a period of time. At 11 calculator.
12 one time in the St. Bernard area the 12 Q. Would .05 inches be the proper
13 pleistocene surface was actually exposed. It 13 measurement per year?
14 would be about I think 18,000 years ago. So 14 MS. MILLER:
15 as sea level rose -- started to rise after 15 Objection.
16 that point, that was covered with marine 16 THE WITNESS:
17 sediments. But in the study area, the 17 No. Well, it's tenths. So it's
18 pleistocene surface is generally, you know, a 18 as I said, half a foot in a century.
19 very stiff clay and it does contain sand and 19 .5 feet in a century, so it's .1 foot
20 silt. But it's a -- pretty much in our area 20 in 20 years. So it would be .05 feet
21 it's the most stable horizon, you know, that 21 in ten years.
22 we have near surface. 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
23 Q. And there is a pleistocene layer, 23 Q. If it's a tenth of a foot in 20
24 correct, in the St. Bernard area? 24 years, --
25 A. It's -- Yes. 25 A. Right.
Page 71 Page 73
1 Q. And generally on top of that in the 1 Q. -- that's a little more than an
2 St. Bernard area you'll have a holocene layer; 2 inch; right?
3 correct? 3 A. Correct.
4 A. Correct. 4 Q. About an inch and, what, a quarter?
5 Q. And can you define what the holocene 5 So an inch and a quarter divided by ten, what
6 layer encompasses? 6 would you say?
7 A. It's made up generally of deltaic 7 MS. MILLER:
8 sediments that were deposited within the last 8 I think it might be more like an
9 4,500 years in the study area, in the, you 9 inch and a fifth. I'm not sure.
10 know, in this area. 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
11 Q. Would you agree that the pleistocene 11 Q. I went to law school. I wasn't a
12 layer is less likely to have subsidence than 12 mathematician. Here's a calculator if you
13 the holocene layer? 13 want to do the math.
14 A. They both have subsidence. In 14 A. I'm not even sure how to use this
15 recent -- in the last 5,000 years I would 15 calculator.
16 agree that the holocene is undergoing more 16 Q. It's very simple. Just type in the
17 subsidence than the pleistocene. 17 numbers and press whatever function you need,
18 Q. In the St. Bernard area, per year 18 if it's a plus, minus, or divide, and then
19 how much subsidence would you equate to 19 press equal.
20 consolidation of the holocene layer? 20 A. I get .06 inches per year.
21 MS. MILLER: 21 Q. Okay. Other than natural
22 Objection. Vague. 22 subsidence, you said that rising sea levels
23 THE WITNESS: 23 also affect natural transgression?
24 I would estimate half a foot per 24 A. Yes.
25 century. And I think -- I have read, 25 Q. Are there any other factors that you
19 (Pages 70 to 73)
Page 74 Page 76
1 would say influence natural transgression of 1 been engaged by Miss Miller to study the
2 the St. Bernard area? 2 effect that the MRGO had on surge and wave
3 A. No, I think subsidence and sea level 3 heights and duration of flooding? Is that
4 rise are the main. 4 correct?
5 Q. And you said that there are some 5 A. No. I did not say that.
6 man-made factors this affect transgression? 6 Q. Do you recall what you did say when
7 A. In the literature there are. I 7 I asked you what -- what you were engaged to
8 don't -- That's not my specialty, so I 8 do by the Corps in preparing an expert
9 couldn't say, you know, they're acting to 9 report?
10 increase it or not. 10 A. I think I said that I was engaged to
11 Q. Do you subscribe to any of those 11 describe the general geology and the land loss
12 theories in the literature? 12 that's occurred in the vicinity of the MRGO.
13 A. No. I have read them. I do agree 13 Q. Okay. And then it was I guess your
14 that sea levels are rising. I don't know 14 understanding that the litigation involving
15 necessarily what the, you know, what the 15 the -- this litigation involved the effect the
16 absolute causes are or whether those trends 16 MRGO had on surge and wave heights and
17 are long-term or short-term. 17 duration of flooding?
18 Q. Are there any regional man-made 18 A. Yes, that's right.
19 activities that are affecting land loss rates 19 Q. And tell me again where you got that
20 in the St. Bernard delta? 20 information. Where did you get that
21 A. Land loss rates? 21 information?
22 Q. Yes. 22 A. Just in general knowledge, reading.
23 A. Regional? 23 Q. Do you recall what it is that you
24 Q. Right. 24 read that you would get that specific of an
25 A. No, I think most of the factors that 25 understanding?
Page 75 Page 77
1 are affecting land loss are operating within 1 A. Newspaper articles. It's been a
2 the St. Bernard delta itself. 2 pretty popular topic in the New Orleans area.
3 Q. In your expert report you indicate 3 Q. Any internal memoranda in the Corps
4 on page 1 that "The expert report discusses 4 of Engineers regarding that?
5 geology of the area in the vicinity of the 5 A. Not that I have read.
6 MRGO." When you use the word "vicinity", what 6 Q. Any expert reports that you read
7 is the area that you are defining? 7 regarding the effect the MRGO had on surge and
8 A. I guess the area that I am showing 8 wave heights?
9 is my study area, figure 2. 9 A. At what point? I have read our
10 Q. That's within the red color? 10 experts reports just recently.
11 A. Correct. 11 Q. When you first came to the
12 Q. This is a term you used for that, 12 understanding that that's what this litigation
13 "study area"? 13 was about.
14 A. Yes. 14 A. No. No.
15 Q. Okay. Who told you to pick that 15 Q. Did you read any expert reports that
16 study area? 16 led you to come to an initial understanding of
17 A. I chose it. 17 the effect that MRGO had on the duration of
18 Q. Based upon what? 18 flooding?
19 A. Based upon some hydrologic 19 A. No.
20 boundaries and my experience and judgment on 20 Q. And so your testimony is you got
21 the area that I thought was directly 21 that from reading newspapers? Is that
22 influenced -- the area of land loss that I 22 correct?
23 thought was directly influenced by the MRGO 23 A. And just from general conversations
24 channel in that area. 24 with people in the Corps.
25 Q. And you said originally that you had 25 Q. What people would you have had
20 (Pages 74 to 77)
Page 78 Page 80
1 conversations with regarding that specific 1 boundary which includes the entirety of Reach
2 information, the effect the MRGO had on surge 2 1 and Reach 2 of the MRGO; correct?
3 and wave heights? 3 A. Looks like it, yes.
4 A. Just conversations with people in my 4 Q. Okay. If your understanding, if you
5 office, other geologists, just as a -- not 5 picked this yourself in your understanding of
6 specific to this litigation. The MRGO has 6 the effect the MRGO had on surge and wave
7 been a topic, you know, of conversation in 7 heights and duration of flooding, why would
8 general. 8 you include the area of the MRGO that is south
9 Q. For how many years? 9 of the Verret turn of the hurricane protection
10 A. Well, when -- as part of the land 10 levee?
11 loss studies, it's one -- it's part of the 11 MS. MILLER:
12 study area we deal in. So the Corps has 12 Objection.
13 projects in that study area, so the MRGO comes 13 MR. JOANEN:
14 up in everyday, you know, work. 14 Based upon?
15 Q. I understand. I'm trying to figure 15 MS. MILLER:
16 out what that would have to do with the effect 16 Again, I think that you're
17 on wave heights would be, though. What kind 17 mischaracterizing the earlier
18 of information would be going on between Corps 18 testimony.
19 individuals regarding the effect the MRGO had 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
20 on wave heights that would lead to these end 20 Q. You did say that the study area that
21 data points in '83 and 1990? 21 you chose yourself is accurately depicted in
22 MS. MILLER: 22 figure 2 on page 4; correct?
23 Objection. I think that may 23 A. Correct.
24 misstate the earlier testimony. 24 Q. And you also said that your
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 25 understanding of the litigation was that the
Page 79 Page 81
1 Q. Okay. You can answer. 1 effect of the MRGO was that -- regarding the
2 A. I don't think my end data points in 2 effect the MRGO had on surge and wave heights
3 the land loss study had anything to do with 3 and duration of flooding; correct?
4 the wave heights or surges in the MRGO. We 4 A. In general that's what my
5 never did try to make any connection between 5 understanding is.
6 them. 6 Q. So my question is, if you are
7 Q. Right. Who at the Corps would have 7 concerned about the litigation and writing a
8 been trying to make a connection in the '80s 8 report regarding the litigation, then what
9 and '90s that the MRGO had an effect on wave 9 effect the MRGO had on surge and wave heights
10 heights? 10 and duration of flooding, why would you
11 MS. MILLER: 11 include in the area of study an area that is
12 Objection. Calls for 12 southeast of the Verret turn of the Lake
13 speculation. 13 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane
14 THE WITNESS: 14 Protection Project levee?
15 I have no knowledge of anybody 15 MS. MILLER:
16 doing that. 16 Objection.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 17 MR. JOANEN:
18 Q. In your experiences at the New 18 What's the basis of your
19 Orleans District, have you been engaged in any 19 objection?
20 conversations with any Corps employees 20 MS. MILLER:
21 regarding the effect the MRGO had on wave 21 Again, that's not what the
22 heights in that area? 22 witness testified that his engagement
23 A. Not specifically, no. 23 for the litigation was to address.
24 Q. You mentioned that your assessment 24 He's described his understanding of
25 area would include everything within the red 25 the litigation generally, but he has
21 (Pages 78 to 81)
Page 82 Page 84
1 not testified that his role was to 1 Q. What are the processes?
2 address surge or wave height. 2 A. At that site or in the whole study
3 MR. JOANEN: 3 area?
4 No, I get that, and that's why I 4 Q. The processes that you relied upon
5 clarified what each of the steps. So 5 that you feel were affecting your decision to
6 now my question to him is why did he 6 include the area all the way up to Bayou
7 include the area south of the Verret 7 Thomas because the Lake Borgne effect had more
8 turn in your -- 8 of an impact on that area than the MRGO
9 THE WITNESS: 9 channel.
10 I specifically chose that area, 10 A. Again, the area within the red is
11 again, as I stated, I chose it as the 11 the areas that I think may have had an effect
12 area which I think is affected or may 12 from the MRGO channel. And then in my
13 have had an effect on the land loss in 13 experience involving with the land loss
14 that study area. I was -- My sole 14 process study that we have talked about
15 purpose for my expert report was to 15 earlier, trying to identify specific processes
16 describe the geology and the land loss 16 responsible for the loss and looking at that
17 within -- within the vicinity. And 17 data, looking at the land loss mapping, that
18 this is what I -- this is the area of 18 information led me to outline that area as the
19 the maximum area that I chose for 19 area specifically impacted by MRGO relative to
20 describing the land loss and the 20 land loss.
21 factors that contributed to the land 21 Q. And what processes of the Lake
22 loss occurred relative to the MRGO. 22 Borgne -- of the proximity of that area near
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 23 Bayou Thomas to the confluence headed in a
24 Q. As you travel the red line of that 24 westerly direction to the confluence to the
25 figure 2 along the Gulf Intracoastal Waterway 25 GIWW and the MRGO, what processes would be
Page 83 Page 85
1 in a northeasterly fashion, what was the 1 taking place that Lake Borgne had a greater
2 reason that you would have stopped your 2 effect than the MRGO?
3 progression of the study area there? 3 A. Again, what I am saying is the area
4 A. That's actually -- I think it's -- I 4 inside the red, without what I am calling the
5 think it's Bayou Thomas right there, sort of a 5 study area, inside the red box, I'm saying
6 natural break point. But also I was trying to 6 that that's the area that you may -- you could
7 weigh the influence that the MRGO had on land 7 argue that the MRGO had an effect on land
8 loss and again, at some point I think the Lake 8 loss. So I am including that as part of my
9 Borgne processes of shoreline erosion and the 9 study area.
10 effect from Lake Borgne, you know, far 10 Q. Okay.
11 outweighs and is dominant, and the MRGO -- the 11 A. The area outside of that box, in my
12 impact the MRGO would be diminished. 12 opinion, the MRGO has minimal impact on the
13 Q. Can you repeat that? 13 land loss.
14 A. At some -- I picked that area by 14 Q. It also says, just on top of that
15 Bayou Thomas as that northeastern corner. I 15 figure 2, that you're relying upon hydrologic
16 think the impact from the MRGO on land loss 16 units identified in Coast 2050 report?
17 diminishes as you go away from the channel and 17 A. Correct.
18 that at that point the processes operating in 18 Q. And can you define what the
19 Lake Borgne are what's contributing to the 19 hydrologic units are?
20 land loss in that area, and not MRGO. 20 A. The one hydrologic unit that I am
21 Q. And what would be the basis for that 21 referring to there is the Central Wetlands
22 conclusion? 22 Unit which sort of forms the southern --
23 A. Again, an understanding of the 23 southern boundary of the study area up until
24 processes of land loss and what those 24 Bayou LaLoutre and then northeast of the
25 processes are and what controls them. 25 MRGO. And because it's a hydrologic unit, a
22 (Pages 82 to 85)
Page 86 Page 88
1 barrier, that I don't -- 1 Wetlands Unit; correct?
2 Q. And in your figure 3, you include 2 A. Correct.
3 the Central Wetlands Unit as stretching well 3 Q. And just so that we're on the same
4 past the Verret turn area of the Lake 4 page with this, the area from what would be
5 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane 5 considered the golden triangle, which is near
6 Protection Project; correct? 6 the confluence of the GIWW and MRGO, headed in
7 A. Correct. 7 a southeasterly fashion to Proctor's Point,
8 Q. Why do you include that area south 8 that would be a separate and distinct area
9 of the Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity 9 from the Central Wetlands Unit; correct?
10 Hurricane Protection? 10 A. Yes.
11 A. Again, it's within what I consider 11 Q. The area from Proctor's Point then
12 to be the area in proximity to the MRGO which 12 headed out toward -- in further southeast
13 may have been impacted relative to land loss 13 fashion towards what I call the upper lobe of
14 from the MRGO. 14 the St. Bernard marsh, would you define that
15 Q. I know. But my question is more 15 as anything in particular? How would we refer
16 specifically why do you include that area down 16 to that as an area separate and distinct from
17 there as a Central Wetlands Unit? 17 the golden triangle to Proctor's Point?
18 A. Well, in previous reports that I 18 MS. MILLER:
19 have seen, that area is part of the Central 19 Objection. I'm just not sure
20 Wetlands Unit. 20 it's clear what area you're
21 Q. Part of. What reports are those? 21 referencing.
22 A. The LCA -- The Coast 2050 report. 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
23 Q. Any others? 23 Q. I'll point it out to you. This area
24 A. No, that's where this came from. 24 right here, which is -- You got to turn the
25 Q. Are you familiar with any reports 25 page. This area right here, which is
Page 87 Page 89
1 that indicate the Central Wetlands Unit is the 1 Proctor's Point, correct? To this upper lobe
2 area enclosed between the MRGO, Lake 2 of the St. Bernard marsh. Correct? What
3 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane 3 would you define that area as?
4 Protection levee, and the 40 Arpent Levee? 4 A. Nothing specific other than, you
5 A. Not specifically. You know, I 5 know, wetland adjacent to Lake Borgne.
6 requested this from one of our GIS, you know, 6 Q. Okay. And there is not a hurricane
7 people that had a file of the Coast 2050 7 protection levee along the MRGO along that
8 units. 8 area; correct? Nothing specific area?
9 Q. When you say "one of our GIS", is 9 MS. MILLER:
10 that someone at the Corps of Engineers that 10 Objection.
11 provided that information to you? 11 THE WITNESS:
12 A. No. Well, it was a USGS employee on 12 No.
13 site working on site at the Corps of 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
14 Engineers. 14 Q. When you prepared your expert
15 Q. And in your experience, you had done 15 report, was it presented to anyone to review
16 work that studied the land loss rates in the 16 prior to being given to the Plaintiffs?
17 Central Wetlands Unit; correct? 17 MS. MILLER:
18 A. Not specifically in the Central 18 Objection.
19 Wetlands Unit. I have done work studying the 19 THE WITNESS:
20 land loss rates in the entire coastal 20 No, I don't think so.
21 Louisiana. Also the Pontchartrain basin, 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
22 which this is a part. 22 Q. Did you write the expert report
23 Q. You would agree with me that the 23 completely yourself?
24 areas northeast of the MRGO adjacent to Lake 24 A. Yes.
25 Borgne would not be part of the Central 25 Q. Did anyone help you or assist you in
23 (Pages 86 to 89)
Page 90 Page 92
1 any way? 1 A. Storms, hurricanes.
2 A. Joe Dunbar at ERDC contributed some 2 Q. What else?
3 of the land loss, you know, rate numbers and 3 A. That's all I can think of right now.
4 the values for land loss. The actual database 4 Q. Okay. So you told me, just to make
5 resides in Vicksburg in ERDC and so he 5 sure I have them all, shoreline erosion,
6 actually calculated -- did some of the 6 natural subsidence, dredging of canals, levee
7 calculations for me. He also helped produce a 7 construction, road construction, drainage, oil
8 few of the figures. 8 and gas withdrawal, tidal exchange, storms,
9 Q. Okay. On page 1, your opinions, the 9 hurricanes. Any other factors that you
10 first one, you say that it is your opinion to 10 believe would have contributed to land loss
11 a reasonable degree of scientific certainty 11 that are separate and distinct from the
12 that the construction of the MRGO is only one 12 construction of the MRGO?
13 of numerous factors which have contributed to 13 A. I think that's probably about the
14 land loss, habitat change, and salinity change 14 major ones.
15 in the study area. Is that still your opinion 15 Q. Okay. You also say that there are
16 as you sit here today? 16 numerous factors that would have contributed
17 A. Yes. 17 to habitat change other than the construction
18 Q. What are the numerous factors that 18 of the MRGO. What are some of the factors or
19 contributed to those three changes? 19 what are the numerous factors, if there are
20 A. Well, in the study area there are 20 numerous factors, that would have contributed
21 quite a few man-made canals, levees, roads 21 to habitat change other than the construction
22 that contributed to land loss. Hydrologic 22 of the MRGO?
23 change which in turn affects the salinity. 23 A. I think those same, that same list
24 Also the salinity affects the habitat change. 24 of things that contributed to land loss also
25 There's also the entire area was logged in the 25 contributed to habitat change.
Page 91 Page 93
1 late 1800s, early 1900s. 1 Q. Okay.
2 Q. Well, that's your second opinion. 2 A. By changing, you know, the
3 A. Okay. 3 hydrology, affecting the salinity, those
4 Q. So let's just stick with the first 4 things result -- elevation change. When you
5 sip. The numerous factors, what are the 5 have those changes, the habitat shift relative
6 numerous factors that would contribute to land 6 to those things.
7 loss? 7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Just land loss in general? 8 A. The same with salinity.
9 Q. Sure. 9 Q. Okay. So for salinity change, you
10 A. Shoreline erosion. Subsidence. 10 would say that all of that shoreline erosion
11 Dredging of canals. The levee construction. 11 would affect salinity change; correct?
12 Road construction. Drainage. 12 A. Not all of them.
13 Q. What else? 13 Q. Okay. Would shoreline erosion
14 A. I think I mentioned dredging of 14 affect a salinity change in your study area?
15 canals. 15 A. Potentially.
16 Q. You did. 16 Q. How would it do that?
17 A. The natural subsidence. 17 A. If, an example, a lake rim, if you
18 Q. Is there an unnatural subsidence? 18 have a lot of erosion on the lake shore and
19 A. In a sense that oil and gas 19 that erosion, and there's an isolated pond
20 withdrawal has been identified as maybe 20 within the marsh, the shoreline erosion eats
21 man-made causes of subsidence. Also drainage 21 the land away over the years, it eventually
22 is a man-made cause of subsidence. 22 breaks into that pond; a pond that was
23 Q. Okay. What else? 23 isolated from the lake or from a channel or
24 A. The tidal exchange. 24 whatever, which, with higher salinity waters,
25 Q. What else? 25 now it's broken through to an interior pond
24 (Pages 90 to 93)
Page 94 Page 96
1 which didn't have that connection before, 1 think it was dredged in 1955. It went from
2 therefore, the salinity will increase in that 2 the central wetlands, the heart of the central
3 pond. 3 wetlands swamp, to Bayou Bienvenue, crossed
4 Q. Okay. What percentage would you 4 over Bayou Bienvenue, and came out I think in
5 assess shoreline erosion as contributing to a 5 the Intracoastal Waterway. Both of those, you
6 salinity change in your study area? 6 know, went from a fresh swamp environment into
7 A. I haven't evaluated the study area 7 a, you know, a more saline brackish marsh
8 to determine, you know, a percentage related 8 environment, so that would have potential to
9 to that. 9 bring in salty water.
10 Q. You said, your previous testimony 10 Also the -- the Violet Canal was
11 was that shoreline erosion potentially could 11 dredged -- It's called the Lake Borgne canal.
12 cause salinity changes in the study area. 12 It was dredged in 1901 from Violet, which is
13 A. Correct. 13 again in the heart of the swamp environment in
14 Q. Do you know in fact whether any 14 the central wetlands; it was dredged seven
15 shoreline erosion did in fact cause salinity 15 miles to Lake Borgne, which is -- was a
16 changes in your study area? 16 brackish marsh environment once again. So now
17 A. I know where that situation that I 17 you have another method of bringing salinity
18 described has occurred. I did not measure the 18 from -- in a canal from the lake to the
19 salinity before or after to verify exactly if 19 interior. I think that canal was six feet by
20 -- you know, what the salinity change was. 20 80 foot wide. Six feet deep, 80 foot wide.
21 Q. Can natural subsidence affect 21 Q. The 1955 Southern Natural Gas
22 salinity change in your study area separate 22 pipeline canal, that would have opened up into
23 and distinct from the construction of the 23 Lake Borgne; correct?
24 MRGO? 24 A. No, I think it stayed -- it opened
25 A. Yes. 25 up into Bayou Bienvenue and then crossed the
Page 95 Page 97
1 Q. How much has natural subsidence 1 golden triangle area and opened up into the
2 affected salinity change in your study area 2 Intracoastal Waterway. The Bayou Bienvenue
3 separate and distinct from the construction of 3 connects to Lake Borgne.
4 the MRGO? 4 Q. Okay. And so the saline input would
5 A. I don't -- I do not know. I have 5 have been from Lake Borgne, then through Bayou
6 not calculated that. 6 Bienvenue into that canal?
7 Q. Do you know whether anybody has 7 A. And through Lake Borgne into the
8 calculated that? 8 Intracoastal Waterway into that canal. Two
9 A. Not that I am aware of. 9 possible ways.
10 Q. Not counting the MRGO, you said 10 Q. Okay. Prior to the MRGO being
11 dredging of canals affects salinity change in 11 dredged out and the cutting of the LaLoutre
12 your study area; correct? 12 Ridge, are you familiar with what the saline
13 A. It's my opinion that dredging of 13 levels were in Lake Borgne?
14 canals can affect the salinity in the area, 14 A. I don't specifically remember Lake
15 yes. 15 Borgne.
16 Q. Other than the dredging of the MRGO, 16 Q. Okay. Would you agree with me that
17 do you know of the dredging of any other 17 the Lake Borgne salinity level is, or was,
18 canals in your study area that affected 18 before the cutting of the LaLoutre Ridge, less
19 salinity changes in your study area? 19 than the saline level in Breton Sound?
20 A. Again, I didn't measure the salinity 20 A. The saline level in Lake Borgne
21 change, but I do know of some channels that 21 prior to cutting the MR -- prior to the
22 were dredged that I do think would have 22 construction of MRGO was less than Breton
23 affected the salinity in the study area. 23 Sound?
24 Q. Which ones were those? 24 Q. Correct.
25 A. The Southern Natural Gas pipeline, I 25 A. When you say Breton Sound, you mean
25 (Pages 94 to 97)
Page 98 Page 100
1 east of the -- 1 Not specifically. I haven't -- I
2 Q. Correct. 2 was -- I didn't see the area prior to
3 A. Yes. I would say it was less. 3 the cutting of the LaLoutre Ridge.
4 Q. And that's because Breton Sound -- I 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
5 mean, Lake Borgne is influenced by outflow 5 Q. In your historic studies of the land
6 from Lake Pontchartrain and outflow from Pearl 6 loss rates, that wasn't one of the things that
7 River; correct? 7 you looked into?
8 A. The salinity? 8 A. No.
9 Q. The salinity levels of Lake Borgne. 9 Q. Would you have a reason to disagree
10 A. Well, in the mixing of, you know, 10 with any other reports or studies that would
11 everything in that area. I mean, the drainage 11 indicate that there were rosocanes in that
12 from the uplands and also the marine waters 12 area prior to the cutting of the LaLoutre
13 coming in. So depending on, you know, that 13 Ridge?
14 mixing is what controls the salinity in Lake 14 MS. MILLER:
15 Borgne. 15 Objection.
16 Q. Are you familiar with the types of 16 THE WITNESS:
17 trees that were growing along the borders of 17 I think on the lake shore in that
18 Lake Borgne, the southern borders of Lake 18 area there were roso -- there were
19 Borgne in your study area, figure 4 -- figure 19 rosocane. And there are rosocanes
20 2 study area? 20 there now on the lake shore.
21 MS. MILLER: 21 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
22 Objection. 22 Q. Does Violet Canal, that was 1901 you
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 23 said it was dredged? Did I write that down
24 Q. Prior to the cutting of the LaLoutre 24 right?
25 Ridge by the MRGO? 25 A. Yes. Yes.
Page 99 Page 101
1 A. The only trees that I am aware of, 1 Q. And that went into Lake Borgne;
2 significant amount of trees that I am aware of 2 correct?
3 that were there prior to cutting of the MRGO 3 A. Yes.
4 along the lake shore, there is a small group 4 Q. And so the Violet Canal going to
5 of live oaks that are on an Indian site out 5 Lake Borgne, the influx of any saline water
6 not far from Bayou Dupre, which are very high 6 would have come in from Lake Borgne, whatever
7 elevation, so they survived. Those are the 7 the salinity rate was there?
8 only trees that I am aware of. There's also 8 A. Yes.
9 some trees, another Indian site just in Lake 9 Q. The Violet Canal, was that on the
10 Borgne, on the Lake Borgne shoreline east of 10 western side of the LaLoutre Ridge prior -- is
11 Shell Beach, too. There's another site there. 11 it on the western side of the LaLoutre Ridge?
12 Q. Okay. In the area of your figure 2, 12 A. Yes.
13 from the -- on the southern border of Lake 13 Q. Would the cutting of the LaLoutre
14 Borgne, from the golden triangle to Proctor's 14 Ridge and the running of the MRGO through that
15 Point, are you familiar with, prior to the 15 area have affected the saline level in a way
16 cutting of the LaLoutre Ridge, cypress trees 16 different than it was prior to the MRGO?
17 and tupelo trees being in that area? 17 A. I think so. Yes.
18 A. I am not aware of any cypress or 18 Q. And would your testimony be that the
19 tupelo trees in that area. 19 Violet Canal would now be influenced by a
20 Q. How about rosocanes? Do you know if 20 higher saline level than it had been prior to
21 there were rosocanes in that area prior to the 21 the cutting of the LaLoutre Ridge?
22 cutting of the LaLoutre Ridge? 22 A. Yes.
23 MS. MILLER: 23 Q. Okay. Do you feel that levee -- how
24 Objection. 24 do you feel that levee construction has
25 THE WITNESS: 25 affected saline levels in the study area?
26 (Pages 98 to 101)
Page 102 Page 104
1 MS. MILLER: 1 Q. Well, you used the word
2 Objection. 2 "potentially". Does that have any scientific
3 THE WITNESS: 3 relevance to your study area to here? Is that
4 Which levee construction? 4 something that in theory could happen?
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 5 A. Well, again, like I said, from the
6 Q. Well, I asked you to name the 6 land loss studies, the process studies, we
7 factors that contributed to saline, salinity 7 know that levees cut off flow, impact the
8 change in the study area other than the 8 hydrology, and if the source of your fresh
9 construction of the MRGO. One of them you 9 water is on one side of the levee, it's not
10 said was levee construction. So I am just 10 going to get to the other side. So that
11 using your words. What levee construction are 11 freshening is what helps balance some of the
12 you talking about? 12 salinity. If you don't have that fresh water,
13 A. Okay. The 40 Arpent Canal levee 13 then the salinity is going to naturally be
14 basically isolated the swamp on the northeast 14 higher.
15 of that levee from any natural drainage or 15 Q. What evidence do you have that the
16 overflow from rain that would have entered 16 40 Arpent Levee actually did affect the
17 that area to help, you know, freshen that 17 salinity levels in your study area?
18 area. So by eliminating that potential source 18 A. I don't have any measurements that
19 of fresh water, you know, the salinities would 19 prove that. But it just -- Again, a natural
20 be higher now in that area than they would 20 -- natural conditions, water flows from high
21 have been. 21 elevation to low elevation. The natural
22 Q. Do you recall when it was that the 22 levees are the highest ground in the study
23 40 Arpent Canal levee was built? 23 area. And the 40 Arpent Canal is between that
24 A. I don't know the exact date, but I 24 high area and the swamp. Rainfall, runoff
25 have a -- in my report there's a 1947 map that 25 runs to the lower elevations. So if you
Page 103 Page 105
1 shows the 40 Arpent Canal. A 1942 map, I'm 1 isolate that, that water is not getting
2 sorry, that shows the 40 Arpent Canal 2 there.
3 constructed. 3 Q. Obviously there's water being pumped
4 VIDEO OPERATOR: 4 over the 40 Arpent Canal levee; correct?
5 I need to change tapes. 5 A. At a couple of point sources there
6 That's the end of tape 2. We're 6 are pump stations. And again, at those pump
7 going off the record. 7 stations, it's one of the few areas where
8 (Recess.) 8 there is some surviving freshwater plants,
9 VIDEO OPERATOR: 9 indicative of the fact that that water is
10 This is the beginning of tape 3. 10 fresher and it's nourishing those. If you
11 We're back on the record. 11 wouldn't have the levees all along, instead of
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 12 being a point source, you might have that
13 Q. Other than the 40 Arpent Canal, was 13 water for the whole length.
14 there any other levee construction that you 14 Q. Do you know whether the levels of
15 believe affected the salinity rates of the 15 salinity in your study area, assuming you're
16 study area? 16 correct about the 40 Arpent Canal levee
17 A. They also have a couple of other 17 affecting the salinity level, whether they
18 levees, you know, the Jackson, they call it 18 changed once the MRGO was cut through the
19 the Jackson protection levee in that 19 LaLoutre Ridge?
20 northeastern portion. It looks like there's 20 A. I don't know if it changed or not.
21 some other drainage levees. Any levees that 21 Q. As you sit here today, assuming
22 would have cut off flow from the natural levee 22 you're correct that the 40 Arpent Canal levee
23 out into that swamp I think could have, you 23 would have affected salinity levels in your
24 know, potentially made the salinity, you know, 24 study area, had there been no MRGO cutting the
25 level higher in that swamp area. 25 LaLoutre Ridge, would there have been an
27 (Pages 102 to 105)

Page 106 Page 108
1 increase in -- would there have been, over 1 Q. So 1932 would be your baseline
2 time, an increase in salinity levels in your 2 number to start determining what the rate of
3 study area? 3 land loss is since the 1927 river levees were
4 A. Yes, I think under natural 4 built; correct?
5 conditions the salinity conditions would 5 A. Right. 1932 is the oldest data set
6 increase in the study area. Again, that's 6 that we were able to find that was of good
7 part of the natural delta. As the land 7 enough quality that we felt comfortable as a
8 subsides, transgression occurs, environments 8 starting point, that had a good enough -- that
9 get more saline. It works from offshore, 9 was -- it was accurate and had coordinates,
10 inshore. The entire study area, again, was 10 scales, things like that that we could use as
11 undergoing -- you know, were losing fresher 11 a starting point for the study.
12 water environments the entire time before the 12 Q. In the study area, what was the rate
13 MRGO was constructed. 13 of land loss from 19- -- was it '32 you said
14 Q. What leads you to believe that that 14 the number?
15 was happening? That you were losing 15 A. Yes.
16 environment? 16 Q. I'm sorry. From '32 until 1958 when
17 A. Well, the -- the previous mapping 17 the MRGO started being dredged out, --
18 and the land loss data itself. Our land loss 18 A. I didn't calculate a rate per se for
19 data starts in 1932. We had a lot of land 19 the study area, but I think there were
20 loss in the study area prior to MRGO. It 20 approximately 30,000 acres total lost from '32
21 wasn't just after. And also the 1932 map 21 to 2001; and from 1932 to '58, I think there
22 identifies the areas of cypress swamp and 22 were about a little over 6,000 acres lost --
23 marsh, and later habitat mapping studies 23 Q. So from --
24 delineated those same lines and they were -- 24 A. -- prior to the MRGO.
25 they were less prior to the MRGO, the line was 25 Q. So from '32 to '58, 6,000 acres lost
Page 107 Page 109
1 already decreasing. 1 in what area?
2 Q. The land loss maps that you're 2 A. In what I identified as the study
3 talking about, those, the 1932, that's after 3 area.
4 the 1927 building of the modern Mississippi 4 Q. The study area. Okay. In your
5 River levees; correct? 5 calculations, can you determine the amount of
6 A. Correct. 6 land loss from '32 to '58 in the area that
7 Q. Would you admit that prior to the 7 would now be described as the area between the
8 building of those modern Mississippi levees in 8 golden triangle and Proctor's Point?
9 '27 that the delta, the St. Bernard area 9 A. I can, but I did not for this study.
10 delta was not necessarily receding at the 10 Q. Okay. It would be some percentage
11 rates that we see now? 11 of 6,000?
12 A. It's hard to say, because we don't 12 A. For '32 to '58?
13 have good, accurate map data for the 3,000 13 Q. Right.
14 years that the St. Bernard delta has been 14 A. Yes.
15 subaerial. So it's hard to understand, get a 15 Q. And then in the area that would be
16 handle on the rates. But you have to 16 what I'll call the Central Wetlands Unit,
17 understand that from Breton Sound all the way 17 according to your what stands for wetlands
18 to Chandeleur Islands was once land. So it's 18 unit, what would be the percentage of that
19 a huge amount of area that has been lost to 19 loss from '32 to '58?
20 natural processes way before man even had an 20 A. I did not calculate that.
21 impact. So it's really hard to get a feel for 21 Q. Okay.
22 the rate of loss. But obviously a very high 22 A. But you can see on figure 4 all of
23 rate of land loss occurs naturally in a delta 23 the -- all of the green, a large part of it in
24 that's undergoing -- it's in the deteriorating 24 the Central Wetlands Unit and in the golden
25 state like the St. Bernard delta. 25 triangle, all of that green color represents
28 (Pages 106 to 109)

Page 110 Page 112
1 land loss from '32 to '58. 1 from '32 to '58?
2 Q. We're going to get to that. The 2 A. Again, that's -- that's a
3 area that would now be enclosed by the Lake 3 contributing factor to altering the hydrology
4 Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane 4 in the study area. That altered hydrology
5 Protection Project, can you calculate what 5 from that point, that feature, is combined
6 percentage of your 6,000 acres was lost from 6 with altered hydrology from dredging of a
7 1932 to '58? 7 canal, say, or -- and in concert with other
8 A. I can, but I did not do it in this 8 things and in concert with a hurricane that
9 report. 9 might have came in during that same time
10 Q. So as you sit here today, the entire 10 period. So all of them together combined to
11 amount of land loss that you would say that 11 cause the loss. But that is one of the -- one
12 occurred between 1932 to 1958 in your land 12 of the factors that contributes to it.
13 loss study area was 6,000 acres? 13 Q. The sheet flow that would be
14 A. 6,277 acres. 14 affected by the 40 Arpent Canal levee, would
15 Q. And that includes land all the way 15 that affect the area -- would that affect the
16 down at the mouth of the MRGO as well; 16 salinity levels down at the mouth of the
17 correct? 17 MRGO?
18 A. Everything that's shown within red 18 A. All the way on the southeastern part
19 in my study area. 19 of the study area?
20 Q. Now, the 6,277 acres that would have 20 Q. Correct. Correct.
21 taken place between '32 and '58, how much of 21 A. I do not think so.
22 that would you say comes from a natural 22 Q. So of the entire land loss area you
23 subsidence rate? 23 say of 6,277 acres, how many acres do you
24 A. I didn't calculate that specific 24 think would have been affected by the
25 number, but it's very small. 25 alteration of the sheet flow by the
Page 111 Page 113
1 Q. At a natural subsidence rate, how 1 construction of the 40 Arpent Canal levee and
2 many -- does -- this environmental loss that 2 that Jackson Barracks levee?
3 we sustained -- that takes place from '32 to 3 A. I don't think alteration of the
4 '58, that percentage, 6,277 acres, is that 4 sheet flow by itself caused land loss. I
5 something that would take place over the 5 think, again, that's just --
6 course of years, decades, centuries? 6 Q. No, salinity levels.
7 A. All of the above. You have to 7 A. Salinity levels. Okay. You're
8 remember the subsidence rate -- Land loss is 8 mixing land loss and salinity levels, so I'm
9 usually the result of a combination of 9 not --
10 numerous processes. Subsidence being one of 10 Q. Maybe that was a bad question. I'll
11 them. So it's not -- It's very difficult to 11 start over. You said that there was some land
12 isolate one thing and say this is due to 12 loss due to increased salinity because of the
13 subsidence. Subsidence may act in concert 13 construction of levees affecting the sheet
14 with another process to actually cause the 14 flow; correct?
15 loss. So it's sort of a shared, you know, 15 A. No, I said there was some land loss
16 responsibility I guess you'd say. So it's 16 due to alterations to the hydrology of which
17 hard to isolate one specific cause of the 17 the 40 Arpent levee is a part.
18 loss. That's why, you know, most -- most 18 Q. Okay. Of that 6,277 acres that had
19 studies, previous studies have identified that 19 been lost in this entire area, what percentage
20 land loss is due to a combination of 20 would you attribute to the construction of the
21 processes, both natural and man-made. 21 40 Arpent Canal levee?
22 Q. And with the levee construction of 22 A. I don't -- we haven't calculated
23 the 40 Arpent Canal levee and the Jackson 23 that it that way and I wouldn't know how to
24 Barracks levee, how much percentage would you 24 calculate it. Again, these things don't act
25 say that affected the land loss of 6,277 acres 25 individually. They act as part of numerous
29 (Pages 110 to 113)

Page 114 Page 116
1 processes acting together. So it's very hard 1 actual lowering would be.
2 to isolate one specific cause. 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
3 Q. So as you sit here today, you can't 3 Q. Okay. That's not within your area
4 say -- 4 of expertise?
5 A. No. 5 A. No.
6 Q. -- the percentage? You said also 6 Q. Now, oil and gas withdrawal, you
7 that drainage would affect salinity levels. 7 said that would affect land loss rate. Would
8 Salinity changes in the study area. Correct? 8 that affect salinity changes in the area?
9 A. I'm not sure I remember I said 9 A. I just said oil and gas withdrawal
10 that. Drainage affects the elevation. Can 10 was listed as one of the -- another factor
11 affect the elevation, which in turn can lower 11 which may contribute to subsidence. I am not
12 the elevation, leading to more water 12 aware of it actually happening in this study
13 incursion. Not necessarily saline water. It 13 area.
14 could be saline water, but it could also be 14 Q. Do you believe that storms and
15 any kind of water. 15 hurricanes would contribute to salinity
16 Q. What drainage would you be 16 changes in the study area?
17 referencing when you -- do you believe that 17 A. Yes, I do.
18 drainage -- that's one of the factors I wrote 18 Q. Would that be on a long-term effect
19 down -- contributes to salinity changes in 19 or a short-term effect?
20 your study area? 20 A. Again, --
21 A. Potentially. And again, I don't 21 MS. MILLER:
22 know this for a fact. But all of the areas 22 Objection.
23 that we impounded in that same figure by that 23 THE WITNESS:
24 Jackson protection levee, if you look in 24 -- it --
25 there, on one of the old maps I think I saw 25 MR. JOANEN:
Page 115 Page 117
1 there's a pumping station. Those areas that 1 What's the basis of your
2 are usually leveed and impounded are usually 2 objection?
3 for development; eventually they usually are 3 MS. MILLER:
4 put under pump, or even just the drainage 4 It's vague as to what you mean by
5 canals that are cut around them actually 5 long and short-term.
6 lowers the water table, leading to some sort 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
7 of subsidence when they're drained. That 7 Q. Okay. If a hurricane passes, it's
8 could lead to more water intrusion into that 8 going to affect the salinity level of the
9 area, so that has the potential for leading to 9 water as it's pushing water through; correct?
10 more salinity. 10 A. It doesn't affect the -- it will --
11 Q. When you say "potential", that's 11 it can push in salt, highly saline water.
12 different than what actually happened in that 12 Q. Okay. And a hurricane also brings
13 area; correct? 13 with it rain oftentimes; correct?
14 A. Right. I did not measure it. 14 A. True.
15 Q. And, in fact, if you had drainage of 15 Q. Rain is going to have a lower
16 fresh water, it would not affect salinity 16 salinity rate than the sea water being pushed
17 levels to an adverse effect. It wouldn't 17 up by a storm surge; correct?
18 increase salinity levels; right? It would 18 A. If it occurs.
19 actually lower salinity levels; correct? 19 Q. If --
20 MS. MILLER: 20 A. Some hurricanes -- Some hurricanes
21 Objection. 21 don't have much rain associated with them.
22 THE WITNESS: 22 Others do.
23 Well, there's salinity in the 23 Q. When a hurricane passes a particular
24 water and there's also soil salinity, 24 area such as the St. Bernard area, the Lake
25 so I don't know, you know, what the 25 Borgne area, how long would it affect the
30 (Pages 114 to 117)

Page 118 Page 120
1 salinity changes, one particular hurricane 1 saline water for a longer period of time
2 passing over one or two days? 2 because of these man-made restrictions.
3 A. I think that's -- has a lot of 3 Q. Are you familiar with any studies
4 factors that control that. You know, how fast 4 that have been done regarding the effects of
5 the hurricane is, how -- how fast did it get 5 hurricanes and hurricane storm surge on either
6 here, how fast did it get out of here. What 6 short-term or long-term effects of salinity in
7 the wind direction is. Also what was the 7 your study area?
8 surge, how high was the surge. Also, that's 8 A. Just the two studies that I read
9 one of the biggest problems with all of these 9 that were actually -- I got out of the Day and
10 impoundments and these man-made features as 10 Schafer report. The Penfound and Hathaway
11 pipelines and levees, what happens is that if 11 study specifically mentions a 1900s hurricane
12 the surge happens to be high enough to overtop 12 that brought in highly saline waters and they
13 those smaller back levees and stuff, then the 13 specifically mentioned the Lake Borgne, the
14 salt water stays within this impounded area 14 swamps adjacent to Lake Borgne as causing --
15 and can't get out. So when you say how long, 15 they were full of lots of ghost cypress trees,
16 the initial surge and leaving may be fine in a 16 which represent trees killed by salt water
17 natural setting, but because we put all of 17 intrusion, and they listed that hurricane as
18 these man-made factors in there now, the water 18 the main culprit of that death of cypress in
19 may sit there for much longer. And for a 19 the study area from that hurricane. Also the
20 plant, you know, how long is long? You know, 20 CEI 1972 report mentions the '47 hurricane,
21 putting high saline water in an environment 21 1947 hurricane as causing a large amount of
22 that's usually not there, I don't know. 22 environmental damage in the Central Wetlands
23 Q. And we're going to get to that. So 23 Unit specifically, and they also specifically
24 would you agree with me, though, that when a 24 addressed that a lot of the land loss in the
25 hurricane passes, that the salinity changes 25 central -- in the golden triangle and the
Page 119 Page 121
1 that are affected, those would generally be a 1 Central Wetlands Unit as being caused by scour
2 short-term period? 2 from that hurricane. And in that same report
3 A. Again, -- 3 they mention three hurricanes since 1900, I
4 MS. MILLER: 4 think a 1901, 1947, and a 1956 hurricane that
5 Objection. 5 brought in storm surge of 10 feet or greater
6 THE WITNESS: 6 as measured at Shell Beach. So all three of
7 Again, what is short-term? 7 those storms would have put in a large amount
8 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 8 of salt water into the study area prior to
9 Q. Two weeks, as opposed to a year. 9 MRGO being constructed.
10 A. Well, as an example, in some areas 10 Q. In preparing your expert report, did
11 after Katrina within impounded leveed areas, 11 you map where any of those ghost cypress
12 water sat for several weeks, you know. So it 12 forests would have been?
13 may not -- it may be longer than two weeks 13 A. No. That's not part of my --
14 potentially in some of these impounded areas 14 Q. In any of your previous land loss
15 which we have within the Central Wetlands 15 studies, have you mapped where ghost forests,
16 Unit. 16 ghost cypress forests would have been?
17 Q. Well, I am talking about your study 17 A. No.
18 area. 18 Q. As you sit here today, do you know
19 A. Well, we have some impounded areas 19 where the ghost cypress forests would have
20 in the study area that have the potential to 20 been in your study area?
21 hold water if they're overtopped, and I don't 21 MS. MILLER:
22 know how long -- In general, I agree that you 22 Objection.
23 would think the surge would go up and go down 23 THE WITNESS:
24 within a short, two weeks time. But it has 24 Ghost cypress relative to what?
25 the potential to hold water, more highly 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
31 (Pages 118 to 121)

Page 122 Page 124
1 Q. You used the term "ghost cypress 1 "adjacent".
2 forest". 2 Q. It's a term you used. However you
3 A. They used the term "ghost cypress". 3 think that it means.
4 Q. Are you familiar with where they 4 A. I would say immediately --
5 would be in your study area? 5 immediately abutting Lake Borgne, no, there's
6 MS. MILLER: 6 no swamp immediately abutting Lake Borgne
7 Objection. Vague as to the time 7 outside of my study area.
8 frame involved. 8 Q. So your testimony before was that
9 THE WITNESS: 9 there was ghost cypress adjacent to Lake
10 They're in the area that was 10 Borgne and you believe that the only place
11 represented by live cypress obviously 11 that was was within your study area. And so
12 at one time. 12 my question to you was, do you believe that
13 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 13 there is any swamp outside of your study area
14 Q. But where in your study area? 14 adjacent to Lake Borgne. And now, if I am
15 A. Well, there are ghost cypress 15 incorrect, I apologize, but it seems like
16 adjacent to the 40 Arpent Canal on the eastern 16 you're qualifying your use of the term
17 side of the 40 Arpent Canal levee. 17 "adjacent".
18 Q. Now. Right -- 18 A. I am qualifying it. What I said was
19 A. Now. 19 that there was ghost cypress in my study area
20 Q. No, I am talking about the Penfound 20 adjacent to the 40 Arpent Canal on the east
21 and Hathaway report that you -- 21 side of the 40 Arpent Canal levee.
22 A. They just mentioned in the Lake 22 Q. Now.
23 Borgne -- in the swamp adjacent to Lake 23 A. Now that I am aware of.
24 Borgne. So since that's the only swamp that I 24 Q. The ghost cypress that was
25 am -- the significant swamp that I am aware of 25 referenced in Penfound and Hathaway, are you
Page 123 Page 125
1 adjacent to Lake Borgne, I would assume 1 familiar with where that would be in your
2 they're talking about that area. 2 study area?
3 Q. But you don't know for sure? 3 A. I am assuming it was where the
4 A. Correct. I wasn't there. 4 historic maps show cypress swamp to be within
5 Q. And there are swamp areas adjacent 5 my study area. Because if you didn't have
6 to Lake Borgne that are outside the study 6 cypress swamp there initially, you can't have
7 area; correct? 7 ghost cypress.
8 A. Not that I am aware of. 8 Q. Okay. Is there any areas that had
9 Q. So it's your testimony that there's 9 cypress swamp adjacent to, however you define
10 no swamp area adjacent to Lake Borgne within 10 the term "adjacent", to Lake Borgne that are
11 your study area? 11 outside of your study area?
12 MS. MILLER: 12 MS. MILLER:
13 Objection. 13 Objection.
14 THE WITNESS: 14 THE WITNESS:
15 You said -- You said outside of 15 Not that I am aware of.
16 my study area. 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 17 Q. Your next opinion indicates that
18 Q. Your testimony is there's nothing, 18 there was large scale logging operations in
19 no swamp outside of your study area adjacent 19 the 1800s and early 1900s that removed large
20 to Lake Borgne. 20 old growth cypress trees from the study area
21 MS. MILLER: 21 prior to construction of the MRGO. That's
22 Objection. 22 still your opinion today?
24 Q. Is that your testimony? 24 Q. Are you familiar with the fact that
25 A. When you say "adjacent", define 25 there was any regrowth of bald cypress trees
32 (Pages 122 to 125)

Page 126 Page 128
1 in the study area since the late 1800s and 1 Q. You indicated that you read the Day
2 early 1900s? 2 and Schafer report prior to issuing your
3 A. Yes, there was. 3 opinion; correct?
4 Q. How would you describe the regrowth 4 A. I don't think I've read -- Yes.
5 of the cypress trees in your study area? 5 Yes. I read their initial report.
6 MS. MILLER: 6 Q. You also said you read the
7 Objection. 7 Fitzgerald report of 2007. Right?
8 THE WITNESS: 8 A. Yes. Yes.
9 That's not my area of expertise. 9 Q. Do you know whether those reports
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 10 indicated the types of second growth cypress
11 Q. Well, you just indicate here that 11 that were growing in the study area?
12 they removed the large old growth bald cypress 12 A. I don't remember. The Fitzgerald
13 trees from the study area. How did you come 13 report I think really just mentioned that it
14 to that conclusion that they were large old 14 was logged and there was second growth swamp.
15 growth bald cypress trees? 15 The Day and Schafer report, the only thing I
16 A. Well, I -- the references that I 16 really recall is them saying it was, you know,
17 read it in, the trees sizes were mentioned 17 pristine, you know, healthy, you know, those
18 there. Also, these are trees that are several 18 kind of characterizations. I don't remember
19 hundred years old. And cypress trees that are 19 any specifics about trunk size or tree height
20 several hundred years old tend to be large 20 or, you know, that sort of thing. More, you
21 relative to new growth, second growth. 21 know,, a lot of descriptive adjectives, but,
22 Q. Did you -- 22 you know, I don't know what those necessarily
23 A. But again, there's references that I 23 mean.
24 have read that they did studies in this study 24 Q. Have you developed any opinion or is
25 area describing the trees. 25 it within your scope of expertise to disagree
Page 127 Page 129
1 Q. Did you read any studies that 1 with what their descriptions of the second
2 referenced the new growth or second growth 2 growth cypress would be in their reports?
3 bald cypress trees in your study area? 3 A. I disagree in the sense that many of
4 A. They reference that there was second 4 the -- many of the factors that we have
5 growth bald cypress in the study area. 5 discussed, and I have listed that have been
6 Q. Do you recall how those studies 6 identified as causing land loss have also been
7 described the second growth bald cypresses? 7 identified as -- you know, swamps is another
8 A. Only that they had a -- not a well 8 type of wetland. There's also been identified
9 developed canopy. That's the only thing that 9 as things that cause swamp degradation and
10 I recall about specifically talking about the 10 loss. So the fact that --
11 trees. 11 Q. That's not my question. My question
12 Q. Do you recall how tall they were? 12 is, do you disagree with the characterizations
13 A. Didn't say. 13 of the second growth cypress forests as they
14 Q. How broad the trunks were? 14 are listed by Day and Schafer and Fitzgerald
15 A. Didn't say. 15 in the reports that you already testified that
16 Q. How many grew within a square mile? 16 you read?
17 A. Not that I recall. 17 A. Yes, I disagree.
18 Q. To your knowledge, is that 18 Q. How is it that you disagree with
19 information available to you? 19 them?
20 MS. MILLER: 20 A. They described them as pristine,
21 Objection. 21 healthy swamps and, because of the man-made
22 THE WITNESS: 22 alterations, the natural deterioration of this
23 I am not aware of where to get 23 delta, all of the other things that are going
24 it. 24 on here that contributed to land loss and
25 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 25 affect the hydrology, which also affects
33 (Pages 126 to 129)

Page 130 Page 132
1 swamps, I think that this area was in the 1 area that there was a loss? And, if so, how?
2 deteriorating state prior to the MRGO. It 2 A. The majority of that loss was in the
3 wasn't pristine. These swamps weren't 3 golden, what's called the golden triangle and
4 pristine. They were second growth swamps and 4 then also in the northwestern portion of the
5 they weren't necessarily healthy, because a 5 Central Wetlands Unit.
6 lot of this stuff has already been going on. 6 Q. And you're referring to figure 4 on
7 Q. So your testimony, if I understand 7 page 8 of your report?
8 it, is if it's second growth, it's not 8 A. Correct. It's shown as the green.
9 pristine? 9 And then there's also some north of the MRGO
10 MS. MILLER: 10 on the southeastern -- southeast of Lake
11 Objection. 11 Borgne between the Bayou LaLoutre Ridge and
12 MR. JOANEN: 12 Lake Borgne. It's hard to see, but there's
13 Well, what's the basis for the 13 some, you know, interior marsh loss in that
14 objection? 14 area. That's also green. But the largest
15 MS. MILLER: 15 portion of the loss between '32 and '58 was
16 Well, -- 16 like again in the golden triangle and in that
17 MR. JOANEN: 17 northwestern portion of the Central Wetlands
18 His statement I believe was 18 Unit.
19 they're not pristine, they're not -- 19 Q. And have you formulated an opinion
20 they're second growth so they're not 20 as to why there would be the degree of loss in
21 pristine. That's why I am asking for 21 that area as opposed to any other area?
22 clarification. 22 A. Yes. As part of the, again, the
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 23 land loss processes study and in reading other
24 Q. Is a second growth cypress forest, 24 publications, that's been attributed to that
25 can it not be, in your opinion, pristine? 25 1947 hurricane, scour from that hurricane
Page 131 Page 133
1 A. I am not sure what the definition of 1 coming in and that -- you know, from the
2 "pristine" would be in this context. 2 easterly direction.
3 Q. It is your word. 3 Q. We were also talking about the fact
4 A. No, -- 4 that you disagree with Dr. Day and Dr.
5 Q. I'm taking your word. 5 Schafer's assessment that there was healthy,
6 A. -- it was Day's word. They said 6 pristine swamps, second growth swamps, swamp
7 it. 7 forests in your study area. How would you
8 MS. MILLER: 8 define the term "pristine"?
9 Would you all like to take a 9 A. To me "pristine" means perfect. And
10 break? 10 to be perfect, I think it would have to be
11 MR. JOANEN: 11 healthy, you know, first growth cypress swamp
12 We'll take a break. 12 in my -- in my opinion.
13 VIDEO OPERATOR: 13 Q. In your opinion, can second growth
14 Off the record. 14 cypress forest be healthy?
15 (Whereupon a discussion was held 15 A. I guess it can be.
16 off the record.) 16 Q. In what situations could it be
17 (Recess.) 17 healthy?
18 VIDEO OPERATOR: 18 A. If all of the environmental factors
19 We're now back on the record. 19 in place at the time were not causing
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 20 deterioration of that swamp.
21 Q. Dr. Britsch, when we broke you'd 21 Q. Would a healthy cypress forest have
22 indicated that from 1932 to 1958 there were 22 giant cut grass and rosocanes within it?
23 6,277 acres lost in your study area. Correct? 23 MS. MILLER:
24 A. Correct. 24 Objection.
25 Q. Can you identify where in the study 25 THE WITNESS:
34 (Pages 130 to 133)

Page 134 Page 136
1 That's not my area of expertise. 1 marshes were advancing or declining, those
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 2 would be the sources of information.
3 Q. Would a healthy second growth 3 Q. And the Wicker study you're
4 cypress forest have giant cut grass and 4 referring to, that's the one that deals with
5 rosocane on the distal edges of the forest? 5 St. Bernard Parish saltwater marshes? Is that
6 A. Again, not my area of expertise. 6 this one (indicating)? I'll show it to you.
7 Q. In your opinion, if you had large 7 MS. MILLER:
8 stands of cypress forest clumped together near 8 You can take a closer look if you
9 a water source, interspersed with giant cut 9 want.
10 grass and rosocane, would that be indicative 10 THE WITNESS:
11 of a healthy cypress forest, whether it be 11 Yes. The '82 study. And also
12 first growth or second growth? 12 Wicker published, and I don't know if
13 MS. MILLER: 13 it was -- if it was before or after
14 Objection. 14 that, the Fish and Wildlife I think
15 THE WITNESS: 15 funded CEI to do some habitat mapping
16 I think it's hard to say, because 16 and Karen Wicker did it, so I don't
17 the rosocane and cut grass that you're 17 know if the same data set was used for
18 talking about may be replacing swamp 18 one -- you know, which one came
19 that's actually dying out. So it may 19 first. And then also again, I
20 be indicative of a deteriorating swamp 20 mentioned earlier that 1932 Coastal
21 rather than one that's healthy. 21 Geodetic Survey T sheet indicates, you
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 22 know, the location of swamps and
23 Q. What factors would you look to to 23 marshes.
24 find out whether rosocane and giant cut grass 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
25 interspersed in the cypress forest would be 25 Q. How would you define the term
Page 135 Page 137
1 indicative of a deteriorating cypress forest? 1 "swamp"?
2 A. Again, there are studies of wetland 2 A. A wetland area that has the right
3 habitats dating to since the 1940s that showed 3 elevation and hydro period to support woody
4 a distribution of marsh and swamp habitats, so 4 vegetation, trees.
5 I would defer to those maps, you know, 5 Q. In southeastern Louisiana is that
6 indicating either expansion or decrease in 6 usually a cypress tupelo forest?
7 those areas to indicate whether that area was 7 A. Usually they are on the outer
8 deteriorating or healthy and naturally 8 fringes of the natural levees in the lower
9 growing. 9 elevations and, you know, on the upper part of
10 Q. Do you know what studies those would 10 the natural levee it's not a swamp. It would
11 be that would indicate that? 11 actually garde into hardwoods in the higher
12 A. I think in the '40s is the Oneal 12 elevations.
13 habitat map. And then the -- there's the 13 Q. So it's my understanding when you
14 Wicker study, I think in '82, which used -- 14 use the term "swamp" was a wetland area with
15 compared habitats in the '50s, I think '50s -- 15 the proper elevation to support woody
16 '56 and '78. And then I think there's -- I 16 vegetation. Would that in southeast Louisiana
17 know there's another one in the '80s and I am 17 be tupelo cypress forest?
18 not sure exactly who did that one. It was a 18 A. Predominantly.
19 Fish and Wildlife one, I think. But again, 19 Q. And how would you define the term
20 there are some habitat mapping studies and 20 "marsh"?
21 that would -- those were the experts that 21 A. An area of saturated soils or one
22 actually were there and documented that. 22 that's periodic- -- periodically inundated at
23 Q. And you said that you would defer to 23 a frequency which allows the growth of
24 the findings in those reports? 24 vegetation that's -- that likes saturated
25 A. As far as whether the swamp or 25 conditions.
35 (Pages 134 to 137)

Page 138 Page 140
1 Q. Are there various degrees of marsh 1 frequency of flooding, you know, what was
2 dependent upon the salinity levels of the 2 there prior. You could have variations in the
3 water that is saturating the soils? 3 vegetation. You can have brackish water
4 A. Yes. There's, you know, there's 4 marshes existing in salt water marsh. You can
5 several factors. There's salinity, elevation, 5 have saltwater grasses existing in brackish
6 hydrology. All of those things help to 6 water environments. So I don't think it's set
7 determine, you know, the gradient of marsh, 7 in stone as far as exactly what you're going
8 swamp, vegetation. 8 to have.
9 Q. And what are -- are there standard 9 Q. The cypress tupelo swamps that we
10 classifications for the gradient of marsh? 10 said was predominantly in southeastern
11 And, if so, what are they? 11 Louisiana, do you know whether there's a
12 A. I'm not sure I understand the 12 salinity level that's associated with those,
13 question. 13 or is that fresh water?
14 Q. Well, you used the term "gradients 14 A. Fresh as far as I know is what they
15 of marsh". Are there different -- Based upon 15 prefer. But again, if they have already been
16 the different salinity levels, are there 16 established, you know, I think they can
17 different gradients of marsh that people in 17 tolerate different salinities for certain --
18 your field would use? 18 for certain periods of time. But again,
19 A. Yes. 19 that's not my expertise. But I know that
20 Q. And what are they? 20 there are ranges.
21 A. Yes. I'm not a marsh expert per se, 21 Q. Is it your understanding in your
22 but, you know, salt marsh on the most outward 22 exposures with the Corps of Engineers doing
23 fringe toward the Gulf where the highest 23 this land loss that cypress cannot survive in
24 salinity is would grade to brackish marsh, 24 water that -- for a long period of time in
25 then intermediate marsh, then fresh marsh, 25 water that is greater than 5 parts per
Page 139 Page 141
1 then fresh swamp. If -- But not all of those 1 thousand?
2 exist all the time. 2 A. Again, I don't know the specific
3 Q. Sure. 3 number. And our land loss study really didn't
4 A. They're not necessarily -- That's 4 distinguish between marsh types or swamp.
5 the ideal sequence, but not necessarily always 5 It's strictly a land versus water conversion.
6 there. 6 Q. But I am asking you, though, do you
7 Q. In a salt marsh, what type of 7 know whether or not that 5 parts per thousand
8 vegetation grows? 8 is a number that is a line that --
9 A. Again, I don't know all the types of 9 A. I don't know.
10 salt marsh, but -- spartina, S P A R T I N A. 10 Q. -- above which --
11 Q. And let me just focus you mostly on 11 A. I don't know the specific number
12 the southeastern Louisiana, Lake Pontchartrain 12 above which cypress swamp will live or die.
13 basin area. For salt marsh, spartina, any 13 Q. For brackish marsh, what types of
14 other type of vegetation that you would see 14 vegetation would grow and survive in that type
15 growing? 15 of environment?
16 A. I think that's the dominant type. 16 A. I think spartina patens is a
17 But again, I am not a marsh wetlands expert as 17 variety. I think three corner grass is
18 far as marsh types. 18 another one. And I think wire grass. I think
19 Q. Do you know the salinity levels that 19 those are common brackish marsh type
20 govern whether the spartina would grow in an 20 vegetation.
21 area that would make it characterized as salt 21 Q. And those would be more inland if
22 marsh? 22 you're progressing away from the coast than
23 A. I think in general salt marsh is 23 the salt marsh?
24 healthy 20 parts per thousand or greater. But 24 A. Yes.
25 again, depending on the elevation, the 25 Q. The spartina that you indicated
36 (Pages 138 to 141)

Page 142 Page 144
1 that's on the salt -- in the salt marsh, do 1 or maiden cane is a common fresh marsh plant.
2 you know what the average height of that would 2 And then a lot of the, you know, aquatics,
3 be? When you got a whole field of it growing, 3 hydrilla, things like that. And then there's
4 about how high would it be? 4 some, you know, some -- you know, woody swamp
5 A. I have never measured marsh height. 5 vegetation, trees. Cypress. Tupelo.
6 I think it depends on the vitality of it and 6 Q. Through many of these reports
7 there's -- you know, there's -- there's salt 7 there's been a term "shrub/scrub". Would the
8 marshes of various elevations. So depending 8 freshwater marsh include shrub/scrub?
9 on the elevation would have something to do 9 A. I don't really have the experience
10 with the height. Also the vitality of it. 10 to -- I would just be guessing.
11 Because very healthy, I would think it would 11 Q. The maiden cane, how high does that
12 be higher than a degrading marsh. 12 grow? Do you know? Well, let me strike
13 Q. Sure. 13 that. Because anything grows as big as it
14 A. But again, I have never measured the 14 wants to.
15 heights of salt marsh. 15 Have you seen maiden cane in
16 Q. Well, in your experiences of going 16 freshwater marsh in the Lake Pontchartrain
17 out to the area of your subject area, your 17 basin study area where you have -- in your
18 study area, have you seen salt marsh? 18 many outtings out there?
19 A. Yes. 19 A. No.
20 Q. The salt marsh that you have seen, 20 Q. Have you seen any freshwater marsh
21 how high was the elevation of the vegetation? 21 in the study area of your report?
22 A. A meter. 22 A. No.
23 Q. So approximately 3 feet? 23 Q. Have you seen any intermediate marsh
24 A. Correct. 24 in the study area of your report?
25 Q. The brackish marsh, the spartina 25 A. I don't think I could identify it if
Page 143 Page 145
1 patens, the three corner grass, the wire 1 I saw it, so the answer would be no.
2 grass, have you seen that in your many, many 2 MS. MILLER:
3 outtings in your study area? 3 I just want to make an objection
4 A. Yes. 4 to these questions to the extent
5 Q. And how high would you say that 5 you're asking him things that he's
6 those grasses would grow? 6 identified are outside his area of
7 A. Again, I would think average, a 7 expertise and based more on his
8 meter, but I think there's a range around 8 knowledge as a fact witness.
9 that. 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
10 Q. But when you think of what it is, 10 Q. On page 1 of your report, an opinion
11 generally that's what you would say, about a 11 was about a land loss rate trend for the study
12 meter; right? 12 area. Can you define what a land loss rate
13 A. Yes. 13 trend is?
14 Q. The intermediate marsh that you 14 A. Just developed by comparing the rate
15 discussed, what type of vegetation will grow 15 of loss for the individual periods of our
16 in that? 16 mapping. So '32 to '58 would be one period.
17 A. I'm not -- I don't really know a 17 '58 to '74 would be a second period and so
18 specific intermediate marsh. I think it's 18 on. So you can compare the acres per year
19 sort of transitional, and you can have some of 19 lost for each individual period and then
20 the brackish and some of the fresh in that 20 compare those to each other. So you can
21 zone and it's sort of a moving target as far 21 develop -- you can make a curve basically.
22 as I know. 22 Q. After '74, what was the next period
23 Q. For the fresh marsh, what kind of 23 that you would be able to identify?
24 vegetation grows? 24 A. '83.
25 A. I think panacum (phonetics) I think, 25 Q. So it's '74 to '83?
37 (Pages 142 to 145)

Page 146 Page 148
1 A. Correct. 1 Q. Have you ever qualified as an expert
2 Q. And then '83 to what? 2 in anything to testify in a court of law?
3 A. '90. 3 A. No, I have never testified as an
4 Q. And then '90 to what? 4 expert.
5 A. 2001. 5 Q. Your land loss studies that you have
6 Q. And then that's it? 6 done on behalf of the Corps of Engineers, have
7 A. Correct. 7 you ever calculated the scope of loss, the
8 Q. In your expert report do you rely 8 area that you have in your study area from
9 upon any land loss data that was calculated 9 1958 to '74?
10 after Hurricane Katrina? 10 A. Yes, those acres have been
11 A. No. 11 calculated and I used them to try to
12 Q. In your report, is your land loss 12 determine, you know, the overall number, but I
13 data -- does it stop at 2001? 13 didn't break them out specifically by period
14 A. Yes. 14 in this report.
15 Q. From 1932 to 2001, what is the 15 Q. Well, my question was, in your
16 amount or the square footage of land lost in 16 experiences prior to whatever you decided that
17 your study area? 17 would have to be done pursuant to Miss
18 A. 29,796 acres from 1932 to 2001. 18 Miller's request, have you ever done a rate of
19 Q. And we have already established I 19 land loss from '58 to '74 for the area that
20 believe that 6,277 is from '32 to '58? 20 would be your study area?
21 A. Correct. 21 A. No, we only calculated this study
22 Q. What's the amount from '58 to '74? 22 area for this report.
23 A. I didn't break that out as part of 23 Q. And if I were to ask you the same
24 this report. 24 question for '74 to '83, would your answer be
25 Q. What's your land loss rate from '74 25 the same? That prior to Miss Miller engaging
Page 147 Page 149
1 to '83? 1 you to put together this report, have you done
2 A. I didn't specifically list the 2 a land loss study for your study area from '74
3 number of acres of loss for those individual 3 to '83?
4 periods. 4 A. No, not for this study area.
5 Q. How about from '83 to '90? 5 Q. And so would your answer be the same
6 A. No. 6 for '83 to '90?
7 Q. How about from '90 to 2001? 7 A. Yes.
8 A. No. 8 Q. And for '90 to 2001?
9 Q. So as you sit here today, the only 9 A. Yes.
10 thing that you can tell me is that there's 10 Q. So the land loss trend that you are
11 6,277 acres lost up to '58 and then there's 11 referencing here involves a high number of
12 approximately 23,500 acres lost from '58 to 12 29,000 and some low number of 6,273, but you
13 2001? 13 can't really tell me, I am guessing, what the
14 A. Correct 14 rate of the curve would be? Is that correct?
15 (Whereupon a discussion was held 15 MS. MILLER:
16 off the record.) 16 Objection.
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 17 THE WITNESS:
18 Q. From what source did you obtain the 18 I have the land loss -- the land
19 6,277 acres lost from '32 to '58? I may have 19 loss acres for each time period which
20 asked you and. If I did, I apologize. 20 I used to develop what's in the
21 A. From our land loss mapping. Our 21 report. So I know -- I know what the
22 land loss maps, we calculated from those 22 trend is. I just don't -- the trend
23 maps. Again, it's the areas that were green 23 is not specifically shown in this
24 on the land loss maps shown in the report from 24 report.
25 '32 to '58. 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
38 (Pages 146 to 149)

Page 150 Page 152
1 Q. And why is that? 1 refer to my entire study area.
2 A. I just -- It wasn't a -- I just 2 Q. Okay. But you say the land loss
3 didn't see the necessity of putting that trend 3 rate trend for the study area is the same as
4 in here. 4 that found in the Central Wetlands Unit. How
5 Q. What factors would have to be 5 is it that you can identify that if you don't
6 present for you to think that it was a 6 know how much land loss is lost in the Central
7 necessity to put it in your report? 7 Wetlands Unit by those periods?
8 MS. MILLER: 8 A. I do know how much was lost. I
9 Objection. 9 don't have it memorized. I have that
10 THE WITNESS: 10 information.
11 I guess if I thought that trend 11 Q. You just didn't put it in your
12 would have influenced or helped 12 report. Is that correct?
13 determine what were the causes of loss 13 A. The stuff in the report refers to
14 during this time period. 14 the entire study area. The study area as a
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 15 whole. It wasn't broken down into smaller
16 Q. Would the land loss rate trend, 16 units.
17 whatever it would be, would that be influenced 17 Q. Okay. For the Pontchartrain basin,
18 by rising salinity levels in your study area? 18 what was the land loss rate trend from 1932 to
19 A. I thinks that's one of numerous 19 2001?
20 factors that contribute to land loss in the 20 A. I think similar to other basins, the
21 study area, so it may have an influence. 21 land loss rate peaked in that '58 to '74
22 Q. Your land loss rate trend also you 22 period and then has declined since then.
23 apply to the Central Wetlands Unit; correct? 23 Q. What do you --
24 A. Yes. 24 A. From my recollection.
25 Q. In the Central Wetlands Unit you're 25 Q. What do you -- What authorities are
Page 151 Page 153
1 defining, you're going with what the Coastal 1 you relying upon to make that statement?
2 2000 -- Coast 2000 report indicates. Is that 2 A. The same land loss database.
3 correct? 3 Q. Which is what?
4 A. Yes. 4 A. Corps of Engineers land loss data.
5 Q. Can you tell me what the total 5 Land loss study.
6 square footage or square miles of land loss 6 MS. MILLER:
7 that was lost from 1932 to 2001 to the Central 7 Can we take a quick break?
8 Wetlands Unit? 8 MR. JOANEN:
9 A. No. 9 Sure.
10 Q. Can you tell me how much land was 10 VIDEO OPERATOR:
11 lost in the Central Wetlands Unit from '32 to 11 Off the record.
12 '58? 12 (Recess.)
13 A. I mean, we have that information, 13 VIDEO OPERATOR:
14 but it's not in this report and I don't know 14 This is the beginning of tape 4.
15 it by heart. 15 We're back on the record.
16 Q. When you say "we have the 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
17 information", who is "we"? 17 Q. Dr. Britsch, if you look at page 6
18 A. I have that information. 18 of your report, on the land loss, kind of the
19 Q. Okay. But you chose not to put it 19 topic we're talking about now, you indicate in
20 in your report? 20 the last sentence of the paragraph "For this
21 A. It is not in this report. 21 report," and I am assuming it means for your
22 Q. And why did you choose not to put it 22 expert report, "the land loss area was
23 in your report? 23 calculated for the study area using data from
24 A. Because I was referring -- my land 24 Corps land loss study, Britsch and Dunbar
25 loss -- the numbers that are in this report 25 2006." That's the Corps land loss study that
39 (Pages 150 to 153)

Page 154 Page 156
1 you just told me you were relying upon for 1 work.
2 this information? 2 Q. But this particular Corps land loss
3 A. Yes. That's the latest, you know, 3 study, Britsch and Dunbar 2006, you said there
4 mapping. 4 was no formal review to check for accuracy.
5 Q. And that's mapping that you did? 5 Correct?
6 A. Joe Dunbar and myself. 6 MS. MILLER:
7 Q. Right. Dated 2006? 7 Objection.
8 A. That's when it was -- 8 THE WITNESS:
9 Q. Published? 9 No.
10 A. Put online, right. 10 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
11 Q. So when you say the Corps land loss 11 Q. And this Corps land loss study has
12 study, that's really your study. You're 12 not been presented to any refereed journals,
13 relying upon your study to substantiate your 13 has it?
14 land loss figures for your study area. 14 A. No.
15 Correct? 15 MS. MILLER:
16 A. Correct. 16 Objection.
17 Q. All right. This Corps land loss 17 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
18 study that you and Mr. Dunbar did, has anybody 18 Q. And has your expert report dated
19 reviewed that for accuracy? 19 December 18th, 2008, has that been submitted
20 A. There was some -- early on in the 20 to any refereed journals?
21 study, and again, this has been going on since 21 A. No.
22 the '80s, again, it's a building process, the 22 Q. Has this Corps land loss study been
23 Fish and Wildlife had some land loss studies 23 subject to any peer review and have you
24 going on and there was some comparisons made 24 received any comments back on it?
25 between their studies and our studies as far 25 MS. MILLER:
Page 155 Page 157
1 as, you know, methodology and accuracy and 1 Objection. I think he's already
2 things like that. So there was sort of -- it 2 answered that question.
3 wasn't formal, formalized, but that went on. 3 MR. JOANEN:
4 And this is also not the results of this 2006 4 Are you instructing him not to
5 study, but the one that ended with the 1990 5 answer?
6 data was published in The Journal of Coastal 6 MS. MILLER:
7 Research and, you know, it goes out for review 7 I'm not instructing him not to
8 prior to publication in that journal. And 8 answer. I'm just making an objection
9 it's also been -- Excuse me. 9 that I think that question has been
10 Q. Finish, please. 10 asked and answered.
11 A. It's also been presented several 11 THE WITNESS:
12 times at conferences. And the data has also 12 It hasn't -- It has not been sent
13 been used by other researchers as part of 13 out for formal review, but it has been
14 their studies, as the basis for some of their 14 reviewed, as I said, before it went
15 wetland loss studies. 15 into a journal article it was reviewed
16 Q. And on those you're referring to 16 and it's -- you know, it's also been
17 your 1990s report? A report based upon 1990s 17 used, like I said, by a lot of other
18 data? As opposed to this Britsch and Dunbar 18 studies.
19 2006 report? 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
20 A. Right. It was still Britsch and 20 Q. But that's the old one, not this
21 Dunbar previously, but the 2006 includes the 21 2006. Correct?
22 2001 data point. So the studies that I can 22 A. 2006 has not.
23 remember that used the Corps land loss data, 23 Q. Okay. What other basins along the
24 we had only gone up to 1990 at that time. But 24 Louisiana coast -- Going back to page 1 of
25 they used that as a basis for some of their 25 your report, what other basins are you
40 (Pages 154 to 157)

Page 158 Page 160
1 referencing that you seem to be comparing the 1 the effect of saltwater intrusion on the
2 land loss rate trend to? 2 environments of the -- your study area?
3 A. I say the Pontchartrain basin, the 3 A. No. Only -- Only -- I think I can
4 Mississippi River delta area, and the 4 only attest to the features that would have
5 Terrebonne basin specifically. The trends 5 potentially allowed saltwater intrusion in the
6 are, you know, fairly consistent. Land loss 6 study area.
7 rate peaks in that '58 to '74 period and then 7 Q. Let me show you a series of I guess
8 decreases after that. 8 maps to some degree. First I'll show you an
9 Q. When you say it peaks in '74, does 9 exhibit, what we will mark as Exhibit 2. This
10 it -- is it increasing in the Mississippi 10 is from the Wicker book. And I have the book
11 River delta from '32 to '58 and then '58 to 11 here to show you. I apologize, I am not good
12 '74? 12 at making copies on our machine with the big
13 A. Yes. 13 ones. I was in there this morning before we
14 Q. By what percentage is there an 14 had anybody in the office. But that's why I
15 increase for the Mississippi River delta? Is 15 brought the book with me. And you'll see on
16 there an increase from '58 to '74 over and 16 page 16 of this book I have is a copy of
17 above the '32 to '58 period? 17 figure 2-13. This might be a little easier
18 A. I don't know that. 18 for you to read. Do you see where, on figure
19 Q. For the Lake Pontchartrain basin, do 19 2-13, this is a chart of the average salinity
20 you know what the increase in percentage from 20 values recorded in May and October of 1960?
21 '58 to '74 is as opposed to '32 to '58? 21 A. Yes.
22 A. No. 22 Q. Do you, having reviewed this report
23 Q. Do you believe that the reasons for 23 as you said before, do you have an
24 this land loss in the Pontchartrain basin is 24 understanding that the salinity values listed
25 the same for the Mississippi River delta? Are 25 as parts per thousand, that they would be
Page 159 Page 161
1 the factors the same? 1 correct?
2 A. Some are. Some aren't. 2 MS. MILLER:
3 Q. What are some of the factors that 3 Objection.
4 would be affecting the Pontchartrain basin 4 THE WITNESS:
5 that would not be affecting the Mississippi 5 I have no reason to think that
6 River delta? 6 they're not, but I don't know, I
7 A. I think this is a sort of degree. 7 didn't do them.
8 It's not that they don't have any, but I think 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
9 a lot of the hydrologic modifications are 9 Q. Do you know of any evidence that
10 greater in the Pontchartrain basin than they 10 would indicate that the salinity values in
11 are in the delta. Subsidence rates are higher 11 this book or in this figure 2-13 are
12 in the delta and somewhat lower in the 12 incorrect?
13 Pontchartrain basin. Alterations of the 13 A. I have no basis either way.
14 hydrology I think are greater in the 14 Q. Next I'll show you what we will mark
15 Pontchartrain basin than in the modern delta. 15 as Exhibit 3 and also Exhibit 4.
16 Q. Do you believe that your study area 16 MR. JOANEN:
17 has been affected by a greater degree of salt 17 I'm sorry, I didn't know you all
18 -- of salinity or saltwater intrusion from 18 were going to be here.
19 1958 to 1974 as opposed to 1932 to 1958? 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
20 A. I think the, you know, the 20 Q. This is on page -- these are pages
21 background salinity is higher in the '58 to 21 21 and 22.
22 '74 period than it was in the '32 to '58 22 MS. MILLER:
23 period. I don't know, you know, if I can say 23 For the record, the copy you
24 how much that affected the study area. 24 handed me, Exhibit 4, you can see that
25 Q. And are you able to testify about 25 it's labeled figure 2-21. But I don't
41 (Pages 158 to 161)

Page 162 Page 164
1 -- I can't read the label on Exhibit 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
2 3. 2 Q. Do you agree with that?
3 MR. JOANEN: 3 A. That they show increased salinities,
4 Right. I couldn't get it. It's 4 yes.
5 going to be 2-20. 5 Q. Would this increased salinity level
6 MS. MILLER: 6 that is indicated in Exhibits 3 and 4 have a
7 Okay. 7 detrimental effect on the environment that is
8 MR. JOANEN: 8 encapsulated within your study area?
9 That's why I wanted the book. 9 MS. MILLER:
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 10 Objection.
11 Q. Anyway, not being an expert in this, 11 THE WITNESS:
12 it's my understanding that these maps indicate 12 I haven't studied the effects of
13 salinity values in the study area of yours 13 salinity in the study area.
14 from May to October, 1968 to 1969 for number 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
15 2-20; and for 2-20 it's salinity regime in the 15 Q. Have you studied the effects of
16 study area which includes your study area from 16 salinity, of saltwater intrusion resulting
17 November to April, 1963 and 1979. 17 from the MRGO channel cutting through the
18 MS. MILLER: 18 LaLoutre Ridge?
19 I think you just called both of 19 A. No.
20 those figure 2-20. Especially without 20 Q. Can you state as an expert that the
21 being able to read the labels on the 21 salinity levels that are indicated in Exhibits
22 photocopies, could you just say again 22 3 and 4 are not related to the MRGO channel
23 what they are? I don't think it was 23 cutting through the LaLoutre Ridge?
24 clear. 24 A. I think salinities in the study area
25 MR. JOANEN: 25 increased after the MRGO was cut through the
Page 163 Page 165
1 Well, here's the book right 1 LaLoutre Ridge.
2 here. On 2-20, it has a date of 2 Q. Do you think that the increase in
3 November through April, 1968 to 1979. 3 land loss rate from '58 to '74 in your study
4 And 2-21 is May through October, 1968 4 area was resulting from the MRGO cutting
5 to 1979. 5 through the LaLoutre Ridge, allowing for
6 MS. MILLER: 6 increased salinities in the area?
7 Okay. If you had a question, I 7 A. I think the -- the fact that the
8 may have interrupted it with -- 8 MRGO was cut through the LaLoutre Ridge in
9 MR. JOANEN: 9 1958 contributed as one -- one of the factors
10 No, I am giving him a chance to 10 that contributed with many others to the land
11 look at them. 11 loss rate within the study area.
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 12 Q. And not being an expert in how
13 Q. I'm not going to start hitting you 13 salinity would affect cypress and tupelo
14 with questions before you have a chance to 14 swamps, you wouldn't be able to assign a
15 look at it. 15 percentage as you sit here today, would you?
16 A. Right. 16 MS. MILLER:
17 Q. As I understand it, these two charts 17 Objection. I'm not sure what
18 show increased salinity levels in the areas 18 percentages of what you are referring
19 where your study area would be which are 19 to.
20 higher than the salinity levels that were 20 THE WITNESS:
21 indicated in Exhibit 2. 21 I didn't measure loss of swamp or
22 MS. MILLER: 22 marsh. As I said, I measured strictly
23 Why don't you look at these. 23 land loss, whether -- land converting
24 THE WITNESS: 24 to water. And as I said earlier, the
25 Yes. 25 losses due to a combination of
42 (Pages 162 to 165)

Page 166 Page 168
1 processes acting in the study area, of 1 marsh?
2 which hydrologic change and salinity 2 A. Yes.
3 is -- are some of those factors, 3 Q. And salt marsh?
4 contributed to those factors. 4 A. Yes.
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 5 Q. Is the inverse also true? That an
6 Q. Have you compared the subsidence 6 unhealthy marsh cannot add to its own
7 rate in Barataria basin with the subsidence 7 accretion?
8 rate in the Lake Pontchartrain basin? 8 A. It's degrees again. I don't know if
9 A. Again, we have -- we have calculated 9 it ever goes to zero. I don't know the
10 subsidence rates for the entire coastal 10 answer. I'm not a wetland scientist. But one
11 Louisiana area. And those are both big 11 of the things we look at as far as calculating
12 basins. So the subsidence rates vary somewhat 12 or understanding subsidence is that it's not
13 within the basin. The northern portions of 13 just negative contribution. Accretion is
14 Barataria basin have similar subsidence rates 14 actually a positive contribution that can
15 as the Pontchartrain basin. As you go all the 15 occur if you have a healthy system.
16 way to the south towards Grand Isle, 16 Q. The issue dealing with the barrier
17 subsidence rates increase. They're higher 17 island migration, we'll get to that later, but
18 than those in the Pontchartrain basin. 18 your last opinion on page 1, you are
19 Q. Are there portions of the 19 commenting on the Day and Schafer and
20 Pontchartrain basin that have not subsided? 20 Fitzgerald report and ultimately you say that
21 A. The whole area is experiencing 21 the data presented in your report shows that
22 subsidence, but there are areas that are also 22 numerous other processes or factors
23 accreting, such as some marsh habitat. So if 23 contributed to the changes within the study
24 the accretion rate exceeds the subsidence 24 area. Do you still believe that to be true
25 rate, you have no net change in the 25 today?
Page 167 Page 169
1 elevation. So there are some areas that have 1 A. Yes.
2 maintained their elevation over long periods 2 Q. What are the numerous other
3 of time because the marsh accretion rate is 3 processes and factors that you believe
4 able to keep pace with subsidence. But there 4 contributed to the changes such that you can
5 is subsidence going on throughout the basin. 5 put that opinion down on paper?
6 Q. Sure. This marsh accretion that you 6 A. I think we listed them earlier, but
7 referred to, what is the -- what's causing 7 it's things like the construction of the 40
8 that marsh accretion? 8 Arpent Levee, construction of the Jackson Back
9 A. If it's healthy enough, you know, 9 Levee, dredging of the Violet Canal, dredging
10 vitality of the marsh, the health, the 10 of the Southern Natural Gas pipeline, logging,
11 underlying subsidence rate, if it isn't too 11 extensive logging in the area, and all of the
12 great, it can keep up. So as the ground -- as 12 logging canals that were dug to get the trees
13 the ground elevation sinks, the marsh is 13 out of the logging area -- wetland areas, all
14 trying to maintain itself above sea level. So 14 led to hydrologic alteration, which is pretty
15 if it's healthy enough, it can actually grow 15 -- is well understood in the literature that
16 and accrete with either -- external sediments 16 it impacts the wetlands. You know, and then
17 can be deposited or just organic detritus just 17 add to that, just the natural subsidence of
18 from its own plant productivity can actually 18 the study area, the fact that it's in a
19 add elevation to the land surface. 19 deteriorating delta lobe, all of those things
20 Q. So my understanding of what you're 20 contribute to the landscape as it is today.
21 saying is, a healthy marsh, a marsh that has 21 And the MRGO is one of those factors also. So
22 vitality can actually contribute to its own 22 I am not saying it's not one, but there are a
23 accretion? 23 lot of other things other than just the MRGO.
24 A. Yes. 24 Q. That was -- You anticipated my next
25 Q. And would that be true of brackish 25 question. You do believe that the MRGO did
43 (Pages 166 to 169)

Page 170 Page 172
1 contribute to land loss, habitat change, and 1 isn't going to survive. When the MRGO channel
2 saltwater intrusion in your study area; 2 is cut through the LaLoutre Ridge and, as the
3 correct? 3 Plaintiffs have argued, that allowed for
4 A. Yes. It's just not the only 4 saltwater into areas at a higher salinity
5 factor. 5 rate, salinity concentration than was there
6 Q. Can you assign as you sit here 6 beforehand, then that killed off the cypress,
7 today, assign a percentage that the MRGO being 7 would that hypothetical I just described to
8 dredged through the study area and cutting 8 you, with the unnatural or the man-made
9 through the LaLoutre Ridge contributed to the 9 dredging of the channel through the LaLoutre
10 habitat change and saltwater intrusion -- 10 Ridge and then allowing the tidal flow to come
11 A. No. 11 if and affecting the tidal range motion -- the
12 Q. -- for the study area? You 12 range of tidal motion, would you consider that
13 indicated on page 2 and 3 that the delta is 13 to be, in your opinion, when you utilize these
14 generally on a decline. You are familiar with 14 terms, as a man-made activity or a natural
15 at least prior to 1927 when the modern 15 occurrence?
16 Mississippi River levees were constructed that 16 MS. MILLER:
17 there were crevasses that would allow for 17 I just want to object to the
18 fresh water to get into various delta lobes; 18 hypothetical to the extent it's
19 correct? 19 incomplete or unclear.
20 A. Yes. 20 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
21 Q. On page 6 you talk about the land 21 Q. You can answer.
22 loss coming from man-made causes as well as 22 A. The dredging of the MRGO channel
23 loss due to natural processes, and then your 23 through the Bayou LaLoutre Ridge I would have
24 following sentence on page 7 says "Most of the 24 classified as a man-made event.
25 loss classified is man-made as a result of 25 Q. Okay. And then the subsequent
Page 171 Page 173
1 dredging activity." Do you believe that to be 1 increase of salinity rates through the
2 true today as you sit here? 2 channel, coming up the channel through the
3 A. Yes, the direct man-made loss is due 3 ridge, would that be a natural occurrence or
4 to -- the majority of it is due to dredging 4 would you consider that the result of a
5 activity. 5 man-made event?
6 Q. Would you believe that dredging 6 A. As part of a land loss study, that
7 activity that allowed for increased salinity 7 wouldn't come into our -- that's not part of
8 levels in an area that would exceed the 8 our investigation. But, you know, just --
9 tolerances for the vegetation in the area 9 MRGO dredging of that would be a man-made just
10 would be considered a natural or a man-made 10 like dredging of the Violet Canal, just like
11 occurrence? 11 dredging of the, you know, natural gas
12 A. I'm not sure I understand the 12 pipeline, those are man-made causes of loss,
13 question. I don't know with what those 13 direct man-made causes of loss, the dredging
14 tolerances would be. I don't know. 14 itself, in that footprint.
15 Q. Okay. Just hypothetically if I tell 15 Q. Okay. The two sentences after that
16 you that there are cypress forests along Lake 16 you say "All land loss not the direct result
17 Borgne, between Lake Borgne and the 40 Arpent 17 of man's activity was considered natural
18 Canal at some point before the MRGO is 18 loss." On what do you base that opinion?
19 dredged, then the MR -- and it's somewhat 19 A. Well, just clarifying there that
20 healthy. Pristine, we'll leave for another 20 when you are looking at the photography, you
21 day to decide whether it was pristine or not, 21 can tell if a -- usually the man-made channels
22 and we'll go through some of the photographs 22 are linears, the dredging of a channel. So we
23 in a little bit, but there's cypress forest; 23 know we would assign that to a man-made
24 cypress has a tolerance level of 5 parts per 24 activity. The problem is, there's subsequent
25 thousand. If it exceeds that, the cypress 25 loss, or people would argue there's this loss
44 (Pages 170 to 173)

Page 174 Page 176
1 subsequent to the channel being dredged, but 1 that's listed on here, that's you; correct?
2 you can't specifically see that, define where 2 A. Yes.
3 that is on the photography. 3 Q. And you worked with Dr. Day and Dr.
4 Q. Okay. 4 Schafer on this; correct?
5 A. So the initial footprint that we 5 A. Yes.
6 know specifically is a linear that we would 6 Q. And for the record, this is an
7 assign to dredging activity, say, is man-made, 7 article that was published in Estuary, volume
8 that means everything else is going to fall 8 23, entitled "Pattern and process of land loss
9 into the natural category. 9 in the Mississippi River delta: The spatial
10 Q. Going back up to the sentence we 10 and temporal analysis of wetland habitat
11 talked about before, "most of the loss 11 change." Have you reviewed this report since
12 classified as man-made as a result of the 12 it was published?
13 dredging activity." So if I understand this, 13 A. Yes.
14 and I do, when man comes about and digs a 14 Q. In this, my understanding, and you
15 channel, that's man-made. But whatever 15 know it better than I do, in this, I
16 results from digging that channel is not 16 understand that an individual by the name of
17 considered man-made? Is that correct? 17 Turner had a theory that direct land loss,
18 A. For the purposes of our land loss 18 i.e., due to canals, is quantitatively related
19 study, only the dredging of the canal was 19 to land loss in general. Is that correct? He
20 considered man-made. We don't know that a lot 20 indicated that most land loss can be a
21 of -- like again, once you dredge the canal, 21 attributed --
22 potentially then you have wind-generated 22 A. I think exclusively is what he was
23 waves, you have currents in the canal, so it's 23 trying to say.
24 hard to stick just one process on it. So 24 Q. And so what was the purpose of you
25 rather than try to get into a gray area in the 25 becoming involved in a study that would
Page 175 Page 177
1 land loss mapping study we strictly stuck to 1 examine Mr. Turner's conclusions?
2 this canal was dredged, therefore, it's a 2 A. My main contribution to this study
3 man-made product -- man-made acres go to a 3 was the -- Turner -- Turner's paper and,
4 man-made part. It was just trying to get a 4 therefore, this paper used the Corps' land
5 handle on our -- man's impact on the -- you 5 loss data set to do the analysis. So my main
6 know, in the land loss landscape I guess 6 contribution to this was supplying, you know,
7 across the coast. 7 the land loss -- the Corps' land loss data and
8 Q. And the last loss survey you're 8 actually, you see all of these polygons
9 talking about is the Britsch and Dunbar 2006? 9 identified, actually supplying, you know, the
10 A. Right. Again, the 2006 -- The only 10 acreage values for those polygons.
11 thing different between the 2006 and the 11 Q. Do you believe that the number of
12 previous studies is the addition of the 1990 12 factors being linked to land loss would
13 to 2001 data point. It's the same study all 13 include canal construction, saltwater
14 the way along. The data from '32 to '90 is 14 intrusion, wave erosion along exposed
15 the same in the 2006 report as it is in the 15 shorelines, and decline of sediments of
16 previous reports. 2006 was just the addition 16 Mississippi River and high relative to sea
17 of an extra data point. 17 level rise?
18 Q. And have the land loss studies 18 MS. MILLER:
19 through their various iterations always 19 Can you identify where you're
20 classified that most of the loss classified as 20 reading from?
21 man-made is a result of dredging activity? 21 MR. JOANEN:
22 A. Yes. 22 Page 46, the first full
23 Q. Okay. I will show you what we will 23 paragraph.
24 mark as Exhibit 5. I know you have seen this 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
25 before. This is -- The Louis D. Britsch 25 Q. Do you agree with that statement?
45 (Pages 174 to 177)

Page 178 Page 180
1 A. I agree that a number of factors 1 statement like this to be in here and have
2 have been linked to land loss. The only one 2 your name on it if you didn't agree with it?
3 I'm a little -- Yeah, I would agree with 3 A. I don't think you have to
4 those. 4 specifically agree with every sentence in a
5 Q. I want to draw your attention to 5 paper that you're a co-author on.
6 page 434. You see on the right-hand column 6 Q. Forgive me, I'm not an academic, but
7 it's called "The role of saltwater intrusion"? 7 how is it that someone knows when they have an
8 A. Correct. 8 article with your name on it, you take credit
9 Q. If you count down 17 lines to the 9 for and you actually list in your curriculum
10 middle paragraph, you'll see there's a figure 10 vitae, that you don't agree with certain
11 1 in parentheses. 11 things and not your feelings or opinions?
12 A. Yes. Yes. 12 A. Well, again I think it's --
13 Q. That's that sentence. That sentence 13 MS. MILLER:
14 says "The construction of the Mississippi 14 Objection.
15 River Gulf Outlet led to saltwater intrusion 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
16 and caused the death of almost all of the 16 Q. I can ask you the question.
17 Taxodium swamps which formerly occurred east 17 A. Like I said, it's the sort of word
18 of the Mississippi River below New Orleans." 18 uses. When it says, you know, "almost all"
19 Taxodium, as I understand it, is cypress. 19 what does "almost all" mean? That's sort of,
20 Correct? 20 you know -- Again, the "almost" part could be
21 A. I don't know, but I am assuming 21 all of the factors that I have listed,
22 that's what they're talking about. 22 contributed to the "almost" part of the "all"
23 Q. Well, when you say "they", knowing 23 so I don't know. So where does it define the
24 you're an author of this -- 24 depth of "almost all". So I don't know what
25 A. I didn't write that sentence, but I 25 that is.
Page 179 Page 181
1 am assuming they were -- you know, it's 1 Q. Well, prior to the Mississippi River
2 referring to swamp. 2 Gulf Outlet cutting through the LaLoutre marsh
3 Q. Okay. The next sentence says "Some 3 and allowing saltwater intrusion into the area
4 of this area is now open water, but much of 4 where the saltwater was not -- that
5 the swamp is converted to spartina marsh which 5 concentration wasn't getting to, what
6 is salt water core grass." Is that correct? 6 percentage of your study area included cypress
7 "Scattered with ghost cypress trunks"? 7 swamp?
8 A. I think spartina can also be 8 A. I haven't calculated that. That's
9 brackish, is brackish marsh. 9 not something I have the data for.
10 Q. Okay. Those two statements, you 10 Q. You would agree that there was
11 don't disagree with them, do you? 11 cypress swamp in that area; correct?
12 A. I disagree with the first sentence 12 A. Prior to the MRGO?
13 that says "Led -- saltwater intrusion caused 13 Q. Yes, prior to the MRGO.
14 the death of almost all". I don't -- I 14 A. Yes.
15 wouldn't -- I would agree that it led to 15 Q. Let me show you some photographs.
16 saltwater intrusion and I think it contributed 16 We have a bunch of them to go through. I'll
17 to the death of cypress swamp, but I think, as 17 tell you that these were produced in discovery
18 I mentioned earlier, there are many other 18 by the Corps of Engineers. This is Exhibit
19 factors, both prior to MRGO and after MRGO 19 6. This is Bates stamped number NED-275, a
20 that were playing in there. I think it's 20 bunch of zeros and 14. I'll show you this
21 difficult to exclude those factors and say all 21 picture and ask if you can identify where that
22 of it was related to MRGO. 22 is.
23 Q. So what other factors do you think 23 (Whereupon a discussion was held
24 would have led to -- Well, let me ask you. 24 off the record.)
25 Going back to that. Why would you allow a 25 MS. MILLER:
46 (Pages 178 to 181)

Page 182 Page 184
1 Did you say this first one ends 1 feeling, as you look at that, that that is
2 in 14? 2 what is now considered to be Reach 1 of the
3 THE WITNESS: 3 MRGO?
4 Do we have a key to these, where 4 A. Correct.
5 these -- 5 MR. JOANEN:
6 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 6 What I might do, Kara, just for
7 Q. Well, that's why I have to ask you 7 ease, you want to just go with the in
8 if you can understand it. There is a key and 8 globo of the exhibits? Or you want to
9 it's in the typing below it, and it indicates 9 do them separately?
10 station numbers. And there are station 10 MS. MILLER:
11 numbers. 11 You want to call it Exhibit
12 A. That's my question. Do you have 12 Number 6? However you want to do it
13 something that shows the station number? 13 is fine. You have -- Are these --
14 MS. MILLER: 14 MR. JOANEN:
15 I can get -- 15 We'll go with Number 7.
16 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
17 Q. My understanding is, this is 17 Q. Number 7 I'll show you. With this
18 something again I cannot attest to it, my 18 Number 6, can you identify the type of
19 understanding that from a previous deposition, 19 vegetation that's indicated in the -- I guess
20 these are station numbers, but I'm not sure 20 around the impoundment where the dredge is?
21 about that. 21 A. Scattered trees.
22 MS. SOJA: 22 Q. What type of trees would you believe
23 There was that question over -- 23 that those are? Could they be cypress?
24 in an earlier deposition that this map 24 A. Yes, they could be, but I -- you
25 might have been incorrectly labeled 25 know, again, I'm not an expert in identifying
Page 183 Page 185
1 based upon the design memorandum. 1 species from photography.
2 MR. JOANEN: 2 Q. Based upon your previous testimony,
3 Okay. I heard about that. I 3 would you believe that those trees, if they
4 wasn't in that deposition. 4 are cypress, would be second growth trees?
5 MS. SOJA: 5 A. Yes.
6 You heard about that. This may 6 Q. I'll next show you what I will mark
7 be incorrect, but -- 7 as Exhibit 7, which is NED-27519. This one is
8 MS. MILLER: 8 a little more precise as to where it's -- it's
9 I'm not sure so far, but we also 9 a view northeast from over the Industrial
10 have some that show mileage markers, 10 Canal. And it looks like it's along the
11 if those are helpful, on the different 11 MRGO. Do you see that?
12 upper portions that reach the leveed 12 A. Station zero. So way over here
13 section essentially of the MRGO. If 13 (indicating).
14 you want to take a look at these and 14 MS. MILLER:
15 use these to help identify the 15 Yes.
16 stations. 16 THE WITNESS:
17 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 17 Yes.
18 Q. Like here you have an indication 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
19 that this is the GIWW to the left. I don't 19 Q. In that photograph do you see that
20 know if that gives you guidance as to where it 20 there is vegetation?
21 would be. Some are a little more clear, but 21 A. Yes.
22 -- 22 Q. What type of vegetation do you see
23 A. Yes, I think we're right in here 23 in there?
24 (indicating). 24 A. Some marsh, some swamp.
25 Q. Okay. And so would it be your 25 Q. And the swamp would be cypress
47 (Pages 182 to 185)

Page 186 Page 188
1 swamp? 1 giant cut grass?
2 A. I don't know for sure. 2 A. Not on this photo.
3 Q. If it is cypress swamp, would it be 3 Q. I'll show you next Exhibit 9, which
4 second growth cypress swamp? 4 is NED-275-, a number of zeros, and 77. And
5 A. I -- Again, I can't tell from this 5 this is an aerial photograph showing the Paris
6 picture if it's -- I can see that some of 6 Road bridge looking towards Bayou Dupre to
7 these are cypress trees out here, I can 7 Bayou Yscloskey. And I will show you this.
8 identify and see those scattered cypress trees 8 If you look right here (indicating), if you're
9 are smaller, but the dense part, the canopy, 9 familiar with the area, would you agree that
10 it's hard to tell. 10 that would be the Paris Road bridge?
11 Q. So the dense part with the canopy, 11 A. Yes.
12 that would be more considered dense trees as 12 Q. The waterway which then runs a
13 opposed to this part which would be -- you 13 little further up here (indicating), would you
14 would define as scattered? Is that correct? 14 agree that would be Bayou Bienvenue?
15 MS. MILLER: 15 A. Yes.
16 I'll object again just to the 16 Q. In looking at that photograph, can
17 extent the witness has already 17 you identify the type of vegetation that is
18 testified that identifying species of 18 shown just above the Paris Road bridge up here
19 dense trees is not within his area of 19 (indicating)?
20 expertise. 20 A. I see some trees, an open area here,
21 But to the extent you can answer 21 but I see some trees (indicating). And here
22 the question. 22 (indicating).
23 THE WITNESS: 23 Q. Right. Well, the reason I brought
24 I can see those are trees and I 24 your attention to the trees that are just near
25 can't -- I can't see water, you know, 25 the Paris Road bridge, there are some -- I
Page 187 Page 189
1 around them. So -- 1 don't know what it is, but it looks like
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 2 something you could gain a scale by. In
3 Q. Next I'll show you Exhibit 8, which 3 looking at those photographs, can you tell how
4 is NED-275-, a number of zeroes, and 56. This 4 high those trees are?
5 seems to be an even higher view of that same 5 A. I mean, I see some camps and some
6 picture number 7. 6 telephone poles, but again I don't know how
7 A. Same. 7 high those camps or telephone poles are, so --
8 Q. Based upon that, what kind of 8 also, this area is adjacent to the
9 vegetation do you see in the areas that were 9 Intracoastal Waterway, which has a spoil bank
10 depicted in Exhibit 6 -- I'm sorry, 7? 10 on it, so I don't know if this area of land is
11 A. More work has been done, so they're 11 a spoil deposit or was it a natural, you know,
12 not really comparable, say. But again, I see 12 setting. So the elevation of this area and
13 -- I see trees, I see a lot of marsh, I see 13 this ridge you can see is a different tone.
14 scattered -- scattered trees. A little of 14 So I don't really, you know, have a handle on
15 everything in this picture. 15 whether this is a natural setting or not.
16 Q. In looking at those photographs, can 16 Q. Do you know what type of trees those
17 you evaluate the height of the marsh that's in 17 would be? Is that cypress forest?
18 there? 18 A. I do not.
19 A. No. It's too high altitude. 19 Q. If you look at Bayou Bienvenue
20 Q. Okay. Can you tell whether that 20 running across the map, can you see that
21 will be a salt or brackish marsh with a 1 21 there's a different type of tree canopy than
22 meter vegetation as opposed to a freshwater? 22 you see elsewhere?
23 A. No. 23 A. Well, this is all marsh surrounding
24 Q. Can you determine there whether any 24 Bayou Bienvenue and there are some scattered
25 of the vegetation in there is rosocanes or 25 trees paralleling the highest part of the
48 (Pages 186 to 189)

Page 190 Page 192
1 ridge on Bayou Bienvenue. 1 is NED-275-88. And see if you can identify
2 Q. Would it be your belief that those 2 where in the world that is.
3 are oak trees? 3 A. Bayou Dupre.
4 A. I don't know which -- what kind of 4 MS. MILLER:
5 trees those are. 5 It should be close -- Here's
6 Q. Okay. I'm going to show you Exhibit 6 5-D.
7 10, which is NED-275, a number of zeros, 79. 7 THE WITNESS:
8 And 79, which is -- I'm sorry. Well, I'm just 8 This is the pipeline right here
9 show you. If you look in the lower part of 9 (indicating). That's crossing. Let's
10 the photograph, would you agree that that is 10 see. Looking -- it doesn't say which
11 Bayou Bienvenue? 11 way we're looking here.
12 A. Yes. 12 I think I know about where we
13 Q. Being a little closer view than the 13 are, but I don't know what view, what
14 Exhibit 9, can you determine what type of 14 way we're looking, which side is which
15 trees those are running along Bayou 15 of the MRGO.
16 Bienvenue? 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
17 A. Again, that's not my expertise. 17 Q. In looking at the photograph, can
18 Q. I'll also show you Exhibit 11, which 18 you determine what type of vegetation is in
19 is NED-275-81. I ask if you can, in looking 19 that area?
20 at that, identify where that would be. 20 A. Looks like predominantly marsh and
21 A. That's 800. That's Bayou Dupre 21 there's a natural bayou or ridge in that lower
22 right there (indicating). But this doesn't 22 right that has some higher vegetation. It's
23 look -- This is not a natural bayou so I don't 23 not -- not trees, but it's higher than marsh.
24 know why it's saying Bayou Dupre. I think 24 Q. And when you are using marsh --
25 we're kind of -- Which way are we looking? 25 A. Parallel.
Page 191 Page 193
1 The view is northwest. I'm not really sure 1 Q. Can you tell me what type of marsh
2 where -- where we are. I see this turn and 2 you would be referring to, what categorization
3 the channel doesn't look right to me. I see 3 of marsh?
4 where it says -- Bayou Dupre should be right 4 A. Meaning fresh, salt, or brackish?
5 here (indicating). That means that Lake 5 No, I can't tell.
6 Borgne is to the right. 6 Q. Yes, sir. Can you tell the height
7 Q. If you see, there's a camp in the 7 of the marsh that you're referring to? I know
8 lower part of the -- 8 you can't categorize it, but can you tell the
9 A. Yes. 9 height from that photograph?
10 Q. Does that give you an indication of 10 A. The majority of this marsh looks
11 what type of vegetation would be growing in 11 again -- It's hard to tell, because I don't
12 that area? Is that 1 meter saltwater or 12 see any features. I mean, it looks low,
13 brackish marsh or would that be something 13 really low and some water in some areas. I
14 taller than 1 meter? 14 would say a meter or less, the marsh part.
15 A. The majority of this photo is marsh 15 Q. All right. Next I would like to
16 vegetation which I would say is a meter type 16 draw your attention to Exhibit 13,
17 stuff. There is a spoil bank along both of 17 NED-275-90. This is an aerial view that you
18 these channels. And then the vegetation right 18 can pick up Lake Borgne, so it should be a
19 around the camps looks a little -- looks 19 little easier to get your bearings.
20 almost like scrub to me. It looks a little 20 A. I think so.
21 higher. 21 Q. Can you identify where we are?
22 Q. And how high would you -- 22 A. Yeah, I think we're west of -- This
23 A. Looks more than a meter, but I don't 23 is Bayou Dupre in the northern portion of this
24 know what type it is. 24 photo. That's the pipeline canal crossing.
25 Q. Next I'll show you Exhibit 12, which 25 Q. Okay. The channel that's being
49 (Pages 190 to 193)

Page 194 Page 196
1 dredged there by that dredge, can you tell 1 identify this, can you tell if that's a little
2 what type of vegetation is on the side of the 2 guy in a boat?
3 channel and the parts of the channel where the 3 A. It looks like that's what it could
4 dredge is heading into? 4 be.
5 A. It's pretty poor quality. I can't 5 Q. Does that give you any perspective
6 -- It's kind of hazy. I can see some 6 as to how high the vegetation is along the
7 vegetation along this natural bayou that the 7 shoreline right where that boat is?
8 dredge covered. You know, higher than marsh 8 A. Again, it looks like it could be
9 elevation for a narrow strip that borders that 9 cane vegetation which could be, you know,
10 channel. Other than that, it's poor quality. 10 several feet tall.
11 Q. And you would believe those are 11 VIDEO OPERATOR:
12 trees? 12 Excuse me. Go off the record to
13 A. No, they're not trees. They look 13 change tapes. This is the end of tape
14 like scrub or maybe cane. 14 4. We're going off record.
15 Q. Okay. Next I'll show you Exhibit 15 (Recess.)
16 14, which is Exhibit NED-275, or Bates number 16 VIDEO OPERATOR:
17 NED-275-95. I believe it's a similar picture, 17 This is the beginning of tape 5.
18 but from an opposite direction. Ask you if 18 We're back on the record.
19 you can identify the vegetation that you see 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
20 in the area around the dredge and in the area 20 Q. Dr. Britsch, I am going to show you
21 that's going into the dredge. 21 what I'll mark as Exhibit 15, identified as
22 A. I can see some woody vegetation 22 Bates number NED-275-139. I'll ask you if you
23 scattered along -- again, along the banks of 23 can look at that and figure out where that
24 this natural bayou that it's crossing. And 24 area is located.
25 then some higher, you know, scrub or, you 25 A. 279. Oh, to Bayou Dupre. I'm not
Page 195 Page 197
1 know, cane paralleling that leading -- and 1 sure where we are here.
2 then blending into marsh, going into marsh. 2 Q. Okay. In looking at that
3 Q. The area in between the two lines 3 photograph, can you determine what type of
4 right here (indicating), my understanding is 4 vegetation is depicted?
5 that was a delineation of where the channel 5 A. Again, there's scattered trees
6 would be cut. 6 paralleling this channel which appears to be a
7 A. It looks like that's heading in that 7 natural channel in the lower part of the
8 direction. 8 picture, grading to all marsh it looks like on
9 Q. Right. Can you tell what type of 9 the northern half of this photo, and there's
10 vegetation is growing in that area that was -- 10 some interspersed marsh within the -- in the
11 I am just -- whether it was -- or not is 11 trees adjacent to this channel.
12 immaterial for that area I am talking about 12 Q. The trees that you see there, can
13 between those two parallel lines, can you tell 13 you identify what type of trees those are?
14 what type of vegetation is growing there? 14 A. No.
15 A. Again, it looks like maybe cane. 15 Q. Would you disagree that those are
16 Again, it's paralleling this channel. And 16 cypress tupelo stands?
17 then there's some scrub. Not trees, but -- 17 MS. MILLER:
18 And I see some, you know, woody vegetation 18 Objection. He said he can't
19 that looks like scrub. 19 identify them.
20 Q. Can you tell the height of which 20 THE WITNESS:
21 that vegetation would be between the parallel 21 I can't distinguish them.
22 lines? 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
23 A. No. 23 Q. In looking at that photograph, would
24 Q. Do you see at the very last bit of 24 you say that that is a healthy or unhealthy
25 waterway before it turns into the land, 25 set of trees/forest?
50 (Pages 194 to 197)

Page 198 Page 200
1 MS. MILLER: 1 MS. MILLER:
2 Objection. Vague. 2 Objection.
4 Again, I don't know what 4 Again, I can see that they're
5 constitutes healthy, but even if I 5 trees. I can see there's some water
6 did, from this elevation without 6 interspersed with them. I don't have
7 actually physically seeing the tree 7 the training of discerning types of
8 close up, I don't think I could 8 trees from photography.
9 determine that. 9 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 10 Q. This is a little bit -- This
11 Q. Okay. The fact that there is marsh 11 photograph angle is a little closer to the
12 interspersed with those trees, would that be 12 ground. Are you able to determine in your
13 an indication to you whether the vegetation 13 experiences whether the tree/forests that are
14 that is depicted in that photograph would be 14 revealed in the photograph would be a healthy
15 considered healthy or unhealthy? 15 environment?
16 A. I can't tell. 16 A. I would not.
17 Q. And why would that be? 17 Q. Okay. Moving to page 11 of your
18 A. Again, I think you'd have to -- You 18 report, swamp habitat -- I don't think we need
19 know, one snapshot in time without actually 19 the book any more. I'm just going to take it
20 being on the ground looking at it would be I 20 back.
21 think difficult to tell. And again, what 21 The first line says "Area of swamp
22 constitutes health, I am not -- that's not my 22 in the study". When you talk about swamp, are
23 field, qualified to tell what's healthy. 23 you referring to that as cypress tupelo
24 Q. I was just picking the terms that 24 forests?
25 you had used. 25 A. Yes.
Page 199 Page 201
1 I am going to show you what I will 1 Q. The second-to-last line, you
2 mark as Exhibit 16, it's Bates stamp number 2 indicate "The process of partly responsible
3 NED-275-10, ask you to identify where in your 3 for loss of swamp in the study area most
4 study area that would be. 4 evident at Bayou LaLoutre east of Yscloskey
5 A. Again, it's adjacent to the 5 where most of the natural levee has subsided
6 Intracoastal. I am not sure which way we're 6 to an elevation that cannot support trees,"
7 looking again. 7 can you describe the process that you are
8 Q. Can you identify the type of 8 referring to there?
9 vegetation that is exhibited at the top of the 9 A. Yes. And I've got a graphic of it
10 photograph? 10 on page 12, figure 7.
11 A. Trees. I don't know what kind. 11 Q. Okay.
12 Q. You wouldn't know whether those are 12 A. You know, when natural
13 cypress or not? 13 distributaries are active, they deposit
14 A. It's hard for me to be definitive. 14 sediment on their -- parallel on their banks;
15 Q. Not even an educated guess? 15 elevation increases as it's growing. Once
16 MS. MILLER: 16 that distributary is cut off from the main
17 Objection. Calls for 17 channel, then it is not receiving any more
18 speculation. 18 sediment, so subsidence becomes a dominant
19 THE WITNESS: 19 process. As it subsides, it loses elevation,
20 I -- I don't -- I don't want to 20 so that woody tree vegetation that would have
21 guess. 21 grown on the higher elevations and in the
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 22 swamp that grows adjacent to that area, as you
23 Q. In looking at them, would you be 23 lose elevation, it becomes wetter, it doesn't
24 able to say that those certainly are not 24 -- is not able to support trees, so what you
25 cypress trees? 25 wind up with is abandoned distributaries with
51 (Pages 198 to 201)

Page 202 Page 204
1 very thin natural levees and you can see dead 1 that there is either saline marsh or brackish
2 -- dead trees paralleling and stumps that 2 marsh throughout the whole land area;
3 were once at higher elevations have now 3 correct?
4 subsided to where they can't -- can't 4 A. Yes.
5 survive. 5 Q. Would that be indicative of the
6 Q. The progression you see from parts B 6 fact, or would that indicate that the salinity
7 through E of your figure 7 tend to indicate 7 level in your part E scenario is higher than
8 that the amount of brackish marsh increases; 8 in your part C scenario?
9 certainly you don't see any in part B; then 9 A. Yes, as the land subsides, marine
10 you have at least a third is brackish marsh in 10 transgression is occurring and more saline
11 your part C. Is that correct? 11 water is entering the study area.
12 A. Yes. A brackish marsh increases 12 Q. In your definition of this figure,
13 from B to C. 13 it is a typical sequence of natural levee
14 Q. And in this scenario, would that 14 development and decline. Correct?
15 indicate an increased salinity level 15 A. Yes. This is a natural process.
16 throughout that whole area, from C to B? 16 Q. If the MRGO cuts through the
17 A. Yes. Again, as part of that 17 LaLoutre Ridge and allows saltwater to get to
18 deteriorating, you know, deltaic cycle. 18 an area that ordinarily it would not have been
19 Q. And comparing C to D, again it 19 getting to with such high salinity
20 appears that the brackish marsh is -- the 20 concentrations, would you consider that to be
21 percentage of the brackish marsh is increasing 21 an unnatural development and decline?
22 to the point where it takes up more than 50 22 A. I think that would be a development
23 percent of your part D on the photograph or -- 23 that would accelerate a natural process that
24 A. Yes, there's more brackish marsh in 24 was already occurring.
25 D than C. 25 Q. And so in your sentence when you say
Page 203 Page 205
1 Q. And would that be indicative of the 1 "this process is partly responsible for the
2 fact that there's, or would that type of graph 2 loss of swamp," that would also allow that
3 be indicative of the fact that the salinity 3 there is an additional part that would be for
4 level would be higher in part D than in part 4 saltwater intrusion in the raising of salinity
5 C? 5 levels above the tolerance for a cypress
6 A. Salinity level is higher in D than 6 swamp?
7 part C? Is that the question you asked? 7 MS. MILLER:
8 Q. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. 8 Objection.
9 A. I don't think you can definitively 9 THE WITNESS:
10 say that. That's a possibility, but also the 10 I think that's what I implied by
11 elevation is changing. So as the elevation 11 saying subsidence along the natural
12 changes, the same -- the same marsh type is 12 levees, that is -- does allow salinity
13 exposed to different -- different water level. 13 to increase. And the reason I say,
14 So that could be partly -- that's partly 14 you know, partially responsible,
15 controlling with the shift in vegetation 15 again, because there are other causes
16 also. Not just salinity, but elevation. 16 that we talked about earlier that are
17 Q. If you take a cross section of this 17 affecting the swamp environment.
18 area and you increase the percentage of 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
19 brackish marsh over the percentage of 19 Q. And so based upon what you're
20 freshwater swamp, wouldn't the percentage 20 saying, it would seem that the cutting of
21 total be higher salinity levels? 21 LaLoutre Ridge accelerated the subsidence for
22 A. I would say brackish marsh versus 22 the loss of swamp in the study area; correct?
23 fresh marsh would indicate that salinity level 23 A. No. I don't think the cutting of
24 is increasing. 24 the ridge accelerated subsidence. Subsidence
25 Q. And then going to part E, you see 25 is a natural process that's going on
52 (Pages 202 to 205)

Page 206 Page 208
1 regardless of whether the LaLoutre Ridge is 1 Q. I'm going to show you a photograph
2 cut or not. 2 which is a mosaic.
3 Q. So it's your testimony that the 3 MR. JOANEN:
4 influx of higher salinity water resulting from 4 This is the one you all used the
5 the cutting of the LaLoutre Ridge by the MRGO 5 other day.
6 did not accelerate the subsidence of the 6 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
7 natural levee at Bayou LaLoutre such that it 7 Q. I'll mark this as Exhibit 17. And I
8 cannot support trees? 8 will share with you that this is a set of
9 A. No, I don't think that increases 9 photographs that were produced by the Corps of
10 subsidence rate at Bayou LaLoutre. 10 Engineers described in this litigation.
11 Q. On page 13 of your report, you 11 MS. MILLER:
12 indicate that the process responsible for land 12 If you want to look at the
13 loss that are identified as causes for 13 clearer --
14 degradation and loss of swamp, these include 14 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
15 altered hydrology and direct removal of trees 15 Q. This one is better. I am just
16 by logging. What is the altered hydrology 16 trying to get my bearings. I believe that at
17 you're referring to there? 17 -- the way I am handing it to you, that at
18 A. The things that we listed 18 the upper right-hand corner, this would be
19 previously. The construction of the 40 Arpent 19 Lake Borgne (indicating). So if that would
20 Canal and the other levees that we talked 20 help you get your bearings.
21 about; Paris Road, putting that in; the 21 A. Correct. I know where we are.
22 dredging of the Violet Canal; dredging of the 22 Q. Okay. If you look at the lower
23 Southern Natural Gas pipeline; the numerous 23 right-hand corner (indicating), down here, can
24 logging canals that were dredged in the 24 you identify the types of trees that are
25 wetlands to get the logs out. All of those 25 indicated in that quadrant photograph?
Page 207 Page 209
1 things altered the hydrology in the study 1 A. No, I can't identify them from this
2 area. As well as the construction of the 2 photograph, but previous habitat mapping
3 MRGO. 3 studies show this as cypress swamp.
4 Q. That's -- My question was, was the 4 Q. Okay. In here can you identify
5 construction of the MRGO and the cutting of 5 where there are logging canals?
6 the LaLoutre Ridge an event that altered the 6 A. Well, there's one here running all
7 hydrology of that area, of your study area? 7 the way this way and then turning and there's
8 A. Yes, it was one of the factors that 8 several, you know, offshoots in there
9 contributed to alter the hydrology in the 9 (indicating). There's another -- looks like
10 study area. 10 the -- There's a canal here (indicating).
11 Q. And the direct removal of trees by 11 This might be the -- I think this might be the
12 the logging, are you talking about the cutting 12 pipeline. Yes, there's a big one here with
13 down of the first growth cypress forest? 13 several linears coming off of that. What is
14 A. Yes, as part of that process, they 14 that -- Do you know the date on this
15 dug access canals and logging, you know, 15 photograph?
16 canals to get those trees out, and those scars 16 Q. As I understand, it's 1945.
17 on the landscape impact the hydrology. 17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Do you agree that when you do have a 18 MS. MILLER:
19 cutting down of first growth cypress that 19 For the record, I believe what
20 you'll have a second growth cypress forest 20 you're introducing was produced at the
21 grow in its place? 21 deposition of John Day originally and
22 A. I don't think that's -- I think 22 also came up at Gary Shafer's
23 that's just dependent on the environment after 23 deposition and one of these
24 you cut down the first growth cypress. I 24 photographs has the number R-15 either
25 don't know if that's always true. 25 7 or T. I think it's 157.46-454.
53 (Pages 206 to 209)

Page 210 Page 212
1 THE WITNESS: 1 the intrusion of more saline water into the
2 (Indicating). 2 study area." What do you base this opinion
3 MS. MILLER: 3 upon? What documents or what sources?
4 Okay. I guess that's covered 4 A. Again, on the 1942 map and also
5 up. The photos are overlapped on this 5 later photography of the pre-MRGO which shows
6 copy so maybe it's on all of them, but 6 again the dredging of the Violet Canal, -- the
7 just not visible on all of them. 7 Lake Borgne canal and then the -- and the
8 THE WITNESS: 8 Southern Natural Gas pipeline that was
9 There's also another canal that's 9 dredged. Both of those going from the heart
10 hard to see in this dark area here and 10 of the Central Wetlands Unit out to Lake
11 here (indicating), and this doesn't 11 Borgne, either directly to Lake Borgne or
12 line up too well. It looks like it's 12 through Bayou Bienvenue to Lake Borgne, which
13 part of that. 13 was higher salinity waters than the interior
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 14 of the cypress swamp. So, to me, it's an
15 Q. Based upon your examination of this 15 access -- it brings tidal exchange into an
16 photograph, can you tell me whether that would 16 area that may not have previously been exposed
17 be second growth cypress forest? 17 to tidal exchange.
18 A. I cannot tell you. 18 Q. And that was a '42 map you said?
19 Q. Based upon your examination of the 19 '42?
20 photograph, can you tell whether that would be 20 A. Let's see. It's a 19- -- No, but
21 healthy cypress forest? 21 it's not -- I am looking at it. It's not on
22 A. No. 22 this map. That -- The dredging, the date of
23 Q. Can you, in looking at that, say 23 the dredging of the canal was from the CEI
24 whether that would be pristine cypress 24 1972 report. That was dug in 1901. And then
25 forest? 25 the land loss map, the Corps land loss map
Page 211 Page 213
1 A. No. 1 shows the data from -- the land loss data
2 Q. Would you be able to testify as you 2 shows the location of the Southern Natural Gas
3 sit here right now that that is not pristine 3 pipeline. And that pipeline is also mentioned
4 cypress forest? 4 in the CEI 1972 report as being a linear, you
5 A. No. Again, but previous reports 5 know, canal feature going through the Central
6 have documented that this entire area was 6 Wetlands Unit.
7 logged in the late 1800s and early 1900s and, 7 Q. And when you talk about the "more
8 therefore, I draw the conclusion from that 8 saline water being introduced into the study
9 that this, if this is cypress swamp, then it 9 area", that was all before 1960; correct?
10 would be second growth cypress swamp. 10 A. Those two features were dredged
11 Q. And you maintain the position that 11 prior to the MRGO. And again, also we
12 second growth cypress swamp, cypress forest is 12 reference -- that CEI report talked about --
13 not pristine? 13 CEI report and the Penfound and Hathaway
14 A. In my definition of "pristine" I 14 report talked about saltwater intrusion
15 would think of perfect and I can't see how, in 15 related to hurricanes in the study area.
16 my understanding, that second growth forest 16 That's another way of saltwater getting there.
17 relative to first growth is perfect. 17 Q. And so referencing back to Exhibit 2
18 Q. On page 13, you indicate that -- the 18 where we went through the Wicker report where
19 last sentence of the first paragraph on page 19 the salt- -- the salinity levels were gauged
20 13, you indicate "That these canals," and by 20 throughout the subject area for 1960, those
21 that I believe you're talking about a large 21 were all numbers that you did not dispute;
22 pipeline canal and several access channels, 22 correct?
23 were cut through this CWU prior to the 23 A. I don't dispute an increase in
24 construction of the MRGO. "That these canals 24 salinity.
25 led to alterations in the hydrology and aided 25 Q. And if, for argument sake, the
54 (Pages 210 to 213)

Page 214 Page 216
1 salinity levels here are sufficient to support 1 area. Correct?
2 cypress and tupelo forest throughout your 2 A. I think I have already stated that
3 subject area, you wouldn't dispute that; 3 cutting of the -- the cutting of the Bayou
4 correct? 4 LaLoutre Ridge by the construction of the MRGO
5 MS. MILLER: 5 increased the salinity in the study area.
6 Objection. By "here", where are 6 Q. Do you have the expertise to testify
7 you referencing? 7 whether that information, the knowledge that
8 MR. JOANEN: 8 if you cut the LaLoutre Ridge, you would allow
9 In this Exhibit 2. 9 saltwater intrusion into areas where the
10 THE WITNESS: 10 levels were not that high, that would not be
11 Again, I -- those numbers are 11 able to sustain the environment that it was
12 adjacent to the MRGO. I don't know 12 going to get to? Was that something that was
13 what the salinity levels were within 13 known to the Corps of Engineers --
14 the Central Wetlands Unit in the area 14 MS. MILLER:
15 of actual swamp. So I don't know what 15 I object to the form.
16 effect the -- the impediments or the 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
17 things causing altered hydrology that 17 Q. -- prior to cutting the LaLoutre
18 I have already stated, how those would 18 Ridge?
19 have affected the salinity levels 19 MS. MILLER:
20 within the study area. 20 Objection.
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 21 THE WITNESS:
22 Q. Well, if you look at this you can 22 I wasn't here when that project
23 see there are a couple of little marks that 23 was built or initiated. I haven't --
24 are in what I understand to be the Central 24 I don't have the expertise to answer
25 Wetlands Unit. 25 that.
Page 215 Page 217
1 A. I agree, but I don't think those 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
2 marks are in the area of cypress swamp that 2 Q. But is that -- your understanding of
3 were indicated on -- in previous studies. 3 intrusion of saline water into study areas and
4 Maybe one or two of the points. But again, 4 how that affects the area and land loss, is
5 you know, one data point, I don't know, you 5 that the type of information that was known to
6 know, what that says about the salinity 6 the Corps of Engineers prior to 1956?
7 long-term of an area that -- to make it viable 7 A. I don't have that knowledge.
8 or not viable for a certain type of 8 Q. With the development of the 40
9 vegetation. 9 Arpent Canal levee and then the additional
10 Q. That's not your expertise and you 10 levees that are built around the Central
11 can't testify one way or the other; correct? 11 Wetlands Unit, do you believe that that would
12 A. Correct. 12 be considered an impoundment of any cypress
13 Q. And, of course, taking that same 13 trees that were in that area?
14 information, the canals that led to the 14 A. I think the area that I identified
15 alterations in hydrology that you are 15 on the land loss -- on figure 6 on page 10
16 referencing in your report that aided the 16 that I identified as an impoundment, I think
17 intrusion of saline water into the study 17 that particular area, there were cypress swamp
18 areas, if this document, Exhibit 2, is correct 18 habitats identified for that area and I think
19 and then the information in Exhibits 3 and 4 19 that is an impoundment. It may not be a 100
20 is correct and shows an increase in salinity 20 percent impoundment, but I think that's as
21 after the cutting of the LaLoutre Ridge, you 21 close as you're going to get. It's pretty
22 would have no disagreement that the MRGO 22 much surrounded by natural features or levees
23 cutting through the LaLoutre Ridge likewise 23 that restrict the flow within that unit.
24 altered the hydrology and aided the intrusion 24 Q. My next set of questions. How do
25 of even more saline water into the study 25 you define what an impoundment area is?
55 (Pages 214 to 217)

Page 218 Page 220
1 A. An area that's pretty much isolated 1 Q. In this impoundment area, were you
2 from the surrounding environment by -- usually 2 able to do any studies to find out what the
3 by elevation that restricts the natural flow, 3 average annual rainfall would be in that area?
4 either tidal or sheet flow from rain into and 4 A. No.
5 out of an area so sediments can't get in, even 5 Q. Were you able to do any studies to
6 water can't get in regardless of what salinity 6 determine whether the average annual rainfall
7 water. Water itself can be damaging 7 that actually fell in that area would have
8 regardless of salinity if it's too high for a 8 been enough to sustain the cypress forest that
9 long period of time. It changes the regime as 9 was in that area?
10 you can see in that figure. There's actually 10 A. No.
11 wetlands outside of that impoundment that 11 MS. MILLER:
12 survived. Inside, they're dead, they were 12 Objection.
13 gone. Converted to open water. 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
14 Q. Do you know whether in that 14 Q. Do you know whether the average
15 impoundment area there had been cypress 15 annual rainfall that would have fallen in that
16 forests prior to them being impounded? 16 impoundment area was reduced during the period
17 A. I think there were on some of the 17 of 1958 to 1974?
18 previous habitat maps, they showed a cypress 18 MS. MILLER:
19 forest in that area. 19 Objection. He stated that he
20 Q. On these maps that you reviewed, was 20 didn't study the amount of rainfall.
21 that cypress forest considered to be healthy? 21 THE WITNESS:
22 A. That's not something I could 22 I do not.
23 identify. 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
24 Q. Do you know whether those cypress 24 Q. And so in looking at this when it
25 forests had rosocane and giant cut grass -- 25 says land loss did not occur until 1958 to
Page 219 Page 221
1 A. No. 1 1974, you're indicating that the land loss was
2 Q. -- interspersed within it? 2 complete by '74?
3 A. No. 3 A. To the area identified with the --
4 Q. No, it did not, or no, you don't 4 in the impounded area that's in the yellow
5 know? 5 color, that loss occurred prior to '74.
6 A. No, I don't know. 6 Q. Are you aware of any studies that
7 Q. Do you know what the tolerance 7 examined the rate of tidal exchange through
8 levels for a cypress tree would be in an 8 the Reach 1 --
9 impoundment area? 9 A. No.
10 MS. MILLER: 10 Q. -- during that time period of 1942
11 Objection. 11 to 1958?
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 12 A. No.
13 Q. I.e., the depth of the water that it 13 Q. Do you know of any studies which
14 would survive in? 14 indicated the increased salinity levels during
15 A. No. 15 the tidal exchanges from 1958 to 1974?
16 Q. Is it your expertise or the area of 16 MS. MILLER:
17 your expertise where you could testify that 17 Objection.
18 this impoundment as constructed in 1942 was 18 THE WITNESS:
19 the cause of the loss of the cypress forest? 19 Again, not specific studies to
20 A. No. Only that in the literature, 20 actually come up with a number, but
21 altered hydrology, regardless of what caused 21 again, the Penfound and Hathaway study
22 it, and impoundment causes altered hydrology, 22 of wetlands in that area indicated the
23 is one of the factors that leads to the 23 ghost cypress in the Central Wetlands
24 degradation of swamp. Just like it does 24 Unit and attributed it to saltwater
25 wetland marsh, marsh land. 25 intrusion into that freshwater
56 (Pages 218 to 221)

Page 222 Page 224
1 habitat. 1 the '30s, did that give any indication of how
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 2 far away from the open waterway would be
3 Q. But the -- 3 adjacent?
4 A. Due to hurricanes. 4 A. No.
5 Q. Yes, the Penfound and Hathaway 5 Q. Are you aware of any studies that
6 report is from the '30s; correct? 6 were done by the Corps of Engineers or at the
7 A. Correct. 7 behest of the Corps of Engineers after the
8 Q. All right. And talking about 8 MRGO was opened up and operational wherein the
9 hurricanes that occurred before the '30s 9 salinity levels at the Seabrook bridge area at
10 obviously. 10 Lake Pontchartrain were increasing?
11 A. Correct. But then the CEI 1972 11 A. No, I know there were some studies
12 report identified two hurricanes, one in the 12 of salinity in the MRGO area done since the
13 '40s and one in the '50s, with storm surge 13 opening, but I don't know the specifics of
14 over 10 feet in that -- in the vicinity of 14 those or the specific locations.
15 Shell Beach, which would have been obviously 15 Q. Are you born and raised in New
16 not much different there. So if hurricanes 16 Orleans?
17 were identified as a source of saltwater 17 A. I was born in New Orleans and moved
18 intrusion into the study area, then it lends 18 out, moved away when I was five and then came
19 itself -- you know, we have three hurricanes 19 back in 1990.
20 then in that 50 year period with fairly high 20 Q. In the last 18 years have you gone
21 surge. 21 out by the Lakefront Airport and across the
22 Q. Right. But I thought you'd 22 Seabrook Bridge and seen fishermen in the
23 indicated earlier that the ghost forests were 23 mouth of the Industrial Canal fishing?
24 on the areas adjacent to Lake Borgne. 24 A. Yes.
25 A. No, but those forests -- Right. 25 MS. MILLER:
Page 223 Page 225
1 They talked about the cypress swamps in the 1 Objection. I'm not sure this is
2 Lake Borgne area. 2 within the scope of his expert
3 Q. Not adjacent to. 3 report.
4 A. Again, what do we consider 4 MR. JOANEN:
5 adjacent? I assume they're -- to me they were 5 It may be. I'm trying to
6 talking about -- the only place they had 6 understand what the scope of his
7 cypress swamp was in the Central Wetlands Unit 7 knowledge would be to lead to this.
8 and, you know, between there and the MRGO. So 8 MS. MILLER:
9 I am assuming that's the area they're talking 9 Okay.
10 about. 10 MR. JOANEN:
11 Q. And this impounded area you're 11 So I'm asking him a number of
12 talking about here, this is along Reach 1 of 12 questions regarding that.
13 the MRGO; correct? 13 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
14 A. Well, it depends how you orient 14 Q. Do you know what they're fishing for
15 yourself. It's closest to Reach 1, but it's 15 there, what type of fish?
16 also -- you know, if you're looking on Reach 16 A. Mainly white trout, speckled trout,
17 2, you kind of -- Reach 2 turns southeast and 17 drum, sheephead.
18 gets fairly close to it also. 18 Q. Do you know whether they were
19 Q. Right. So when you define "adjacent 19 catching speckled trout at that area before
20 to Lake Borgne", it's your testimony that this 20 the MRGO cut through the LaLoutre Ridge?
21 impounded area is in fact adjacent to Lake 21 A. I do not.
22 Borgne? 22 Q. Do you know of any studies that
23 A. Not immediately adjacent to Lake 23 would have examined that?
24 Borgne. It's within my study area. 24 A. I haven't read any.
25 Q. The Penfound and Hathaway study from 25 Q. Would that be the type of
57 (Pages 222 to 225)

Page 226 Page 228
1 information that you would seek out in 1 of the MRGO, prepared by the New Orleans
2 preparing an expert report regarding the 2 District Corps of Engineers".
3 impact of the MRGO on your study area? 3 A. I don't recall seeing this specific
4 A. Not relative to land loss of the 4 report, but it doesn't mean I haven't come
5 study area. 5 across it. I just don't recall.
6 Q. You're familiar with the LaBranche 6 Q. If you look on page 1 in the last
7 Wetlands; correct? 7 paragraph, six lines down, the sentence that
8 A. I know where they are. Yes. 8 talks about habitat shifts, you see that?
9 Q. Where would that be? 9 A. Yes.
10 A. West of the New Orleans 10 Q. It says "Habitat shifts caused by
11 International Airport, between there and the 11 saline waters brought in by MRGO have caused
12 Bonnet Carre spillway. 12 3,350 acres of fresh to intermediate swamp and
13 Q. Has the construction of the MRGO in 13 8,000 acres of cypress swamp to shift to
14 cutting through the LaLoutre Ridge affected 14 brackish marsh." Do you agree or disagree
15 the salinity of the LaBranche swamps? 15 with that conclusion?
16 MS. MILLER: 16 A. I wasn't involved in the study. I
17 Again, objection. I think this 17 don't know if I agree or not.
18 is outside the scope of his expert 18 Q. Okay. If in fact the Corps of
19 report. 19 Engineers is correct and there was this
20 THE WITNESS: 20 approximately 11,350 acres of cypress swamp
21 I have no specific data on 21 and fresh to intermediate marsh shifting to
22 salinity there. 22 brackish marsh, would it be your understanding
23 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 23 of the heights of brackish marsh being 1
24 Q. Have you ever examined the scope of 24 meter, would it be your understanding that the
25 loss of the LaBranche swamps? 25 heights of the vegetation that was in those
Page 227 Page 229
1 A. The LaBranche -- LaBranche -- 1 areas that was shifted to brackish marsh would
2 Q. LaBranche. 2 have been reduced due to the saline waters
3 A. -- Wetlands are part of -- are 3 being brought in by the MRGO?
4 contained within the Corps' land loss study. 4 MS. MILLER:
5 So again, we don't specifically identify 5 Objection.
6 swamps or vegetation type. It's either land 6 THE WITNESS:
7 or water. 7 Again, as I stated earlier,
8 Q. Okay. 8 there's more to the height of marsh
9 A. And also the LaBranche Wetlands have 9 than strictly whether it's the
10 a man-made barrier which para- -- you know, 10 salinity level. The land features,
11 parallels the railroad tracks all along that 11 you know, the elevation of the
12 area and it's under -- so it's semi-impounded. 12 existing land, duration of flooding,
13 It's under management. There are a few water 13 things like that, which I am not -- I
14 control structures. So, you know, again, I 14 don't know the details of. So I don't
15 wouldn't call that a natural setting so it's 15 think it's -- you can make a -- I
16 sort of hard -- Again, it's not one -- Again, 16 think the elevation is going to vary
17 it has a lot of factors involved in what's 17 throughout the study area.
18 going on in that area. 18 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
19 Q. Let me show you -- I'll mark this as 19 Q. Sure. But would you agree that
20 an Exhibit 18. Here, give me that one. It's 20 cypress swamp is going to have a higher
21 the same thing. Have you ever seen this 21 elevation than brackish marsh?
22 document before? 22 A. The elevation of the vegetation
23 For the record, while you're 23 itself? Not the land surface?
24 looking at it, it's a December, 1999 report 24 Q. Sure.
25 entitled "Habitat impacts of the construction 25 A. That's what we're talking about?
58 (Pages 226 to 229)

Page 230 Page 232
1 Yes. 1 the world?
2 Q. And, of course, since the times you 2 A. I think Hopedale is on Bayou
3 have been going out there, you said you have 3 LaLoutre. So it sounds about the same area.
4 never really seen fresh marsh out there; 4 I don't have it identified for me on a map
5 correct? 5 here.
6 A. Correct. 6 Q. Well, if you look at figure 2 of
7 Q. Then it also says "Approximately 7 your report, you have what looks to be -- I
8 7,500 acres of swamp have convened to 8 can see like Bayou LaLoutre and then if you
9 intermediate marsh." And I believe that your 9 then move to your figure 3, you can see where
10 testimony before was intermediate marsh would 10 the Central Wetlands Unit ends in a little
11 be 1 meter as well? So it is your belief that 11 more detail. Based upon the bigger view and
12 this 7,500 acres of swamp, the height of the 12 then the smaller view, because I kind of get
13 vegetation, that would have been reduced to 13 lost with what you're doing there as well, is
14 the 1 meter intermediate, approximately 14 Hopedale near where the lower southeastern
15 intermediate marsh? 15 point of your Central Wetlands --
16 A. Again, -- 16 A. Yes.
17 MS. MILLER: 17 Q. -- Unit is?
18 Objection. 18 A. But it says between the 40 Arpent,
19 THE WITNESS: 19 and I don't think the 40 Arpent goes all the
20 -- I don't know the height of 20 way that far.
21 the intermediate marsh in the area 21 Q. Right.
22 that they're talking about and also, 22 A. So there's a little discrepancy
23 this is talking about St. Bernard 23 there.
24 Parish, which is a pretty broad -- 24 Q. Based upon this "Results" page, it
25 this could be in an area outside of 25 says that this unit, meaning the Central
Page 231 Page 233
1 even the study area that I identified, 1 Wetlands Unit as defined in this report, had
2 south of Bayou LaLoutre and other 2 35,310 acres of marsh and cypress swamp in
3 areas. So I don't know where we're 3 '56. Is that amount of acreage equal to the
4 talking about here. 4 amount that's within your Central Wetland
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 5 Unit?
6 Q. Okay. Well, let's turn two pages. 6 A. I don't -- I did not specifically
7 Unfortunately, they're not numbered. So you 7 calculate the amount of acreage in my -- in
8 turn one, two, three pages and you'll see the 8 the Central Wetland Unit.
9 term "Results". 9 Q. So as you sit here today, you simply
10 A. Uh-huh (affirmatively). I see it. 10 just don't know?
11 Q. You can look at that. Can you get 11 A. Correct.
12 an estimation of what areas they're talking 12 Q. If you can turn a little further
13 about? 13 back, there's going to be a table 2. It's
14 A. Yes. A better idea. 14 kind of towards the middle, I guess. That's
15 Q. Do you have an understanding of what 15 it. If you see where it talks about habitat
16 the Central Wetlands Unit area encompasses in 16 types, you'll see for Central Wetlands Unit,
17 this report? 17 you have central forest, 10,200 in 1956?
18 A. Based on this description, yes. 18 A. Cypress forest?
19 Q. And would that be the same Central 19 Q. Yes.
20 Wetlands Unit that you described in your 20 A. Yes, I see it.
21 report? 21 Q. And then you see in 1978 there's
22 A. It sounds like it. 22 zero. In reviewing this as you sit here
23 Q. Does your Central Wetlands Unit 23 today, would you know whether that means that
24 extend past Hopedale? I mean, let me ask you 24 from 1956 to 1978 10,200 acres of cypress
25 first off, do you know where Hopedale is in 25 forest were lost in the Central Wetlands
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Page 234 Page 236
1 Unit? 1 A. I don't think that's one of its
2 A. That's what this table is implying. 2 purposes or its intent.
3 Q. Would you have any reason to dispute 3 Q. But will it? Will the state of
4 that impoundment of the cypress trees in your 4 Louisiana get lucky enough that it will grow a
5 figure 6, the trees would not have died, that 5 little land because of that?
6 they just would have grown at a slower rate? 6 MS. MILLER:
7 MS. MILLER: 7 Objection. Calls for
8 Objection. If what? 8 speculation.
10 I don't know. 10 I wouldn't expect it.
11 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
12 Q. Are you aware that the Corps of 12 Q. And what is the importance of
13 Engineers has undertaken to close the MRGO 13 stopping tidal flow at that location?
14 presently? 14 A. From an environmental standpoint I
15 A. Yes. 15 think just the everyday ebb and flow of the
16 Q. Do you know why it is they are 16 tide from a -- two reasons. Just the actual
17 closing the MRGO? 17 movement of water in and out of that channel
18 A. What closure are you talking about? 18 can lead to some erosion on the banks and then
19 There are two. 19 within the wetlands, and then also the higher
20 Q. Okay. Tell me what the two are and 20 saline waters out in Breton Sound, reducing a
21 we'll talk about them. 21 slight salinity, and the hopes is that there's
22 A. There's closure at the Bayou 22 a little freshening of that area relative to
23 LaLoutre Ridge, just south of the Bayou 23 what it is now.
24 LaLoutre Ridge. I think that one's only -- is 24 Q. Do you know why they picked the
25 a lock closure. I think it's going up plus 7 25 LaLoutre Ridge area as opposed to any other
Page 235 Page 237
1 elevation. And I think the main purpose of 1 specific area along the Reach 2 of the MRGO?
2 that is closing it for traffic, number one. 2 A. I am not sure what the final
3 And also to reduce tidal flow within the 3 decision was made on, but it is one of the
4 channel. And I think there's a slight 4 areas where the MRGO is narrowest. Because of
5 reduction in salinity. And that's the purpose 5 the LaLoutre Ridge, it didn't erode as much
6 for that closure. 6 there because it's a natural ridge and land
7 The other one is related to the 7 form, very stiff clays, so it's a narrower
8 hurricane protection system and that's right 8 point, so -- and it's also a major hydrologic
9 south of -- It's in the MRGO right south of 9 feature, a natural hydrologic feature. That
10 Bayou Bienvenue and crosses the golden 10 by putting it there, you are sort of restoring
11 triangle and then across the Intracoastal 11 some of that natural hydrology.
12 Waterway, ties into the hurricane protection 12 Q. And they're going to a plus 7
13 system, and that again is part of the 13 elevation on that, I understand?
14 hurricane protection system. And there's some 14 A. I think that's what it is.
15 floodgates within that system, so at Bayou 15 Q. In essence, in building that dam
16 Bienvenue it will be open and then the 16 right there, for lack of a better word, are
17 Intracoastal Waterway will be open. 17 they putting the environment back to where it
18 Q. Do you know whether the closure of 18 was before they cut the LaLoutre Ridge?
19 the MRGO at the LaLoutre will allow for 19 A. I don't think, you know, one plug
20 accretion of land in the area? On the eastern 20 right there cannot necessarily restore
21 side of the closure? 21 everything the way it was. Not just because
22 A. Accretion of land? A subareal 22 of the MRGO, because of all of these things we
23 land? 23 mentioned earlier have been acting on this
24 Q. Build up any type of marsh, swamp, 24 environment this whole time also. But I
25 anything. 25 think, again, the location, there was a
60 (Pages 234 to 237)

Page 238 Page 240
1 natural hydrologic barrier, so by putting it 1 and, in particular, there were, as noted, tens
2 there, hopefully, it'll -- it'll somewhat 2 of thousands of acres of healthy bald cypress
3 restore some of the natural hydrology of that 3 water tupelo swamps and fresh water wetlands
4 area. 4 in the central wetlands and surrounding
5 Q. In page 15 of your report, you have 5 areas."
6 a sentence in here where you're talking about 6 Q. So you would agree, though, with
7 that a hurricane of '47 impacted the study 7 that particular one, the "and" makes it a
8 area, likely brought in saltwater to the swamp 8 conjunctive. You have tupelo swamps --
9 area and caused more swamp loss. You then say 9 A. Yes. He did say "and freshwater
10 "This is in direct contrast to the notion 10 wetlands". And then on previous, on page 17
11 that this Central Wetland Unit was 11 he says -- the bottom of 16, the top of 17
12 characterized by tens of thousands of acres of 12 "Because a considerable portion of these
13 healthy bald cypress, water tupelo swamps 13 wetlands was bald cypress tupelo swamp,
14 prior to construction of MRGO as described in 14 greater than 10,000 acres, reduction of storm
15 the expert report by Day and Schafer." You 15 surge would likely have been greater." And
16 took that from the Day and Schafer report? 16 then the other one is I guess I gleaned from a
17 A. Yes, several times in their report 17 U.S. Fish and Wildlife letter that said there
18 they mention tens of thousands of acres of 18 were ten -- "destroyed tens of thousands of
19 healthy bald cypress tupelo swamp. 19 acres of mature bald cypress swamps".
20 Q. Isn't it a fact that the accurate 20 Q. What page is that?
21 statement would be that they're referring to 21 A. But those were the two -- 21. But
22 tens of thousands of acres of wetlands and not 22 again, that's from a U.S. Fish and Wildlife
23 swamp -- 23 letter that these excerpted from.
24 MS. MILLER: 24 Q. What line?
25 Objection. 25 A. Like six, seven from the bottom.
Page 239 Page 241
1 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 1 "In a report to the USACE, the U.S. Fish and
2 Q. -- and marsh? 2 Wildlife predicted," so that was a
3 A. My recollection is they referenced 3 prediction. But again, 25 is the main one
4 swamp several times. 4 where I got that.
5 Q. I have brought with me the Day and 5 Q. Okay.
6 Schafer expert report and I have even clipped 6 A. I didn't go over -- I can continue
7 it real quick so you can find that statement. 7 and find -- maybe find another reference here
8 VIDEO OPERATOR: 8 if you would like.
9 Excuse me. Go off the record to 9 Q. Let me ask you, do you dispute that
10 change tapes. 10 prior to the construction of the MRGO, the
11 That is the end of tape 5. We're 11 Central Wetlands Unit contained tens of
12 going off the record. 12 thousands of acres of healthy bald cypress
13 (Recess.) 13 water tupelo swamp and freshwater wetlands?
14 VIDEO OPERATOR: 14 A. I would defer to the wetland habitat
15 This is the beginning of tape 6. 15 mapping studies as far as the actual acreages
16 We're back on the record. 16 of swamp, but I would dispute using -- not
17 THE WITNESS: 17 that I know what it is, but using -- how do
18 Okay. I have got a couple of 18 you define the word "healthy" is what I don't
19 locations. 19 necessarily agree with. Knowing that other
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 20 previous studies have indicated negative
21 Q. Okay. 21 impacts from hurricanes, negative impacts from
22 A. I think the main one is on page 25. 22 alterations to the hydrology, and knowing, --
23 "Conditions prior to MRGO construction". It 23 and then also seeing the land loss signature
24 says "Wetlands," the second sentence, 24 in the study area, knowing that there was
25 "Wetlands were much more extensive than now 25 loss, a good deal of loss related to other
61 (Pages 238 to 241)

Page 242 Page 244
1 factors prior to the MRGO that I don't, you 1 In your report and in your
2 know, have the knowledge or the scale of what 2 testimony, you've indicated that the Central
3 -- When you say "healthy" or "pristine", I am 3 Wetlands Unit has suffered from subsidence.
4 not sure I -- I understand what that is, and I 4 Correct?
5 don't necessarily agree that's what it was. 5 A. Yes. The entire study area suffered
6 Q. So when you make a statement that 6 from subsidence.
7 this is in direct contrast to the notion that 7 Q. Do you think that subsidence alone
8 the CWU was characterized by tens of thousands 8 would have killed the cypress forests that
9 of acres of healthy bald cypress water tupelo 9 were indicated in the Central Wetlands Unit in
10 swamps prior to construction of the MRGO, it's 10 1956?
11 describing the report of Day and Schaefer, 11 MS. MILLER:
12 what you dispute is the term "healthy"? 12 Objection.
13 MS. MILLER: 13 THE WITNESS:
14 Objection. 14 I'm not sure I can definitively
15 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 15 answer that. You know, once again,
16 Q. Is that correct? 16 it's a process that's acting in
17 A. No, I also -- I also don't 17 concert with other processes. But
18 necessarily agree that there are tens of 18 again, subsidence has been going on
19 thousands of acres of fresh marsh or cypress 19 for several thousand years in that
20 swamp. But I don't -- I have not made that 20 study area and it will continue to go
21 calculation. But I haven't -- I don't 21 on.
22 necessarily agree from -- when you look at the 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
23 -- even the numbers that are shown in the Day 23 Q. Sure. But to lose 10,000 acres --
24 and Schaefer report for habitat types, or 24 A. I don't think by itself subsidence
25 where the -- you know, they vary themselves 25 caused that acres to be lost. But in
Page 243 Page 245
1 whether you come up with tens of thousands. 1 conjunction with other processes, the combined
2 Q. Let me ask you, the exhibit that we 2 effect could potentially cause that to be
3 have already talked about, Exhibit 18, the 3 lost. Again, it's one of numerous factors
4 Corps' own information which indicates habitat 4 acting on the study area.
5 types in the Central Wetland Unit, they have 5 Q. From '56 to '78, you lose 10,200
6 fresh and intermediate water marsh is 11,620 6 acres of cypress forest in a 20 year period
7 and cypress forest as 10,200. Would you 7 and your testimony previously was that you
8 dispute those figures? 8 lose a tenth of a foot in 20 years. So the
9 A. Again, this is from an LDNR study 9 Central Wetlands Unit would have lost a tenth
10 apparently. And again, you are combining 10 of a foot. And so it wouldn't be your
11 fresh and intermediate marsh, so again this is 11 testimony that the area subsiding a tenth of a
12 not my expertise. And then in the same 12 foot would have killed 10,200 acres of cypress
13 cypress forest, that says 10,200. In the Day 13 forest. Correct?
14 and Schaefer report, in one of their charts 14 A. I would not think subsidence by
15 for -- They have different units. Central 15 itself would be responsible for killing the
16 wetlands, 1955, it says cypress swamp, 7,050. 16 cypress swamp. But it's one factor that in
17 So this one says in 1955 10,200. And the Day 17 conjunction with others can be -- is a
18 and Schaefer, on page 43, says cypress swamp, 18 cumulative impact. Not by itself.
19 7,050. So again, I don't -- I haven't done 19 Q. If there had been no increasing
20 any calculations specifically of swamp, but 20 salinity rates as indicated in the Wicker
21 again, those numbers vary. 21 report, would the subsidence and any other
22 Q. I'll need my report back. 22 factors you talked about kill 10,200 acres of
23 A. Okay. I've got it kind of out of 23 cypress forest from 1956 to 1978?
24 order here. I'll put it back for you. 24 MS. MILLER:
25 Q. That's all right. 25 Objection.
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Page 246 Page 248
1 THE WITNESS: 1 Do you know of any others?
2 I don't think you can 2 A. I can't name them offhand, but I
3 definitively answer that because you 3 know there was, you know, numerous tropical
4 don't know -- as an example, how many 4 storms and hurricanes in the area. But again,
5 hurricanes would there have been 5 that area is closed off and the locks are --
6 during that time frame potentially? 6 the floodgates are closed during those events,
7 You know, there are other factors that 7 so you would not have gotten a lot of impact
8 are involved. So I don't think I 8 post-MRGO from water other than rainfall
9 could answer that. 9 potentially.
10 MS. MILLER: 10 Q. Further down, the last sentence on
11 Do you need a break or anything? 11 your page 13, you indicate that "Most of the
12 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 12 old growth bald cypress swamp was logged out
13 Q. When you talk about the effect that 13 in the early 1900s and the only remnants of
14 hurricanes would have on the cypress, in 14 virgin swamp and second growth bald cypress
15 essence you're referring to your figure 4. 15 remained"? Do you know how much second growth
16 Correct? When you talk about the green areas 16 -- Well, what time period are they talking
17 in the central -- in the golden triangle? 17 about there?
18 A. No, that just identifies areas of 18 A. I'm trying to find where you are
19 land loss within that '32 to '58 time period. 19 here.
20 Q. Okay. And so you're relying, your 20 Q. The last sentence.
21 statement just now that hurricanes may have 21 A. The last sentence?
22 affected the Central Wetlands Unit cypress 22 Q. Yes.
23 forest, you're relying obviously on the 23 A. They just -- I just reference it
24 Penfound and Hathaway study of the '30s; 24 said early 1900s. So I am assuming pre-1930.
25 correct? 25 Q. Well, the sentence before that
Page 247 Page 249
1 A. And also the -- 1 talked about figure 9 having 2005 photography
2 Q. The CEI report? 2 showing networks of full load boxcars and also
3 A. -- CEI report of 1972 which 3 --
4 identified large environmental impact from the 4 A. Correct.
5 1947 hurricane in that area. 5 Q. -- lots of logging activity and
6 Q. Did that CEI report indicate how 6 Tobin '58 photography.
7 much forest loss was attributed to the '47 7 A. Correct.
8 hurricanes? 8 Q. Do any of those photographs indicate
9 A. Not to my recollection. 9 the remnants of the virgin swamp and second
10 Q. Do you know of any definitive 10 growth bald cypress remaining?
11 studies that would correlate the loss of the 11 A. On a specific -- those specific
12 10,000 acres of -- Well, it had to have been 12 photos that are referenced and shown in here,
13 some event that occurred after 1956, correct, 13 you're just seeing, you know, dead remnants of
14 that would have in 20 years eradicated 10,000 14 second growth swamp as far as I know.
15 acres? 15 Q. Dead remnants of second growth? Is
16 A. Well, I don't know about that acres 16 that what you said? Did I understand you
17 itself, that number, if that number is 17 correctly?
18 accurate or not, but the swamp loss after 1958 18 A. That's my understanding. Because
19 would have been, in my judgment, due to 19 all of the -- and like I said, in the previous
20 numerous -- a combination of numerous 20 reports they mentioned that all of the old
21 factors. Hurricanes could have been one of 21 growth original forest was logged in the study
22 them. 22 area. I didn't verify that personally over
23 Q. Do you know of any hurricanes that 23 the whole area, but that's what the reports
24 struck the Central Wetlands Unit between 1958 24 say.
25 and 1978? Betsy. That's one I can think of. 25 Q. Have you had an opportunity to
63 (Pages 246 to 249)

Page 250 Page 252
1 compare the 2005 photography and the Tobin '58 1 would be obvious that the healthier whatever
2 photography? 2 the wetlands are, the better able they are to
3 A. Relative to land loss, yes. 3 withstand storms, but again, at what magnitude
4 Q. To quantify the amount of second 4 that becomes insignificant, I don't know. You
5 growth bald cypress? 5 know, some storms may be of such magnitude
6 A. No, I did not calculate acreage of 6 that it overcomes the difference between
7 bald cypress. 7 whether it's healthy or not healthy. So I
8 Q. Your figure 10 indicates that the 8 don't know where that break point is.
9 photograph, and this was in your report, 9 Q. And that's not within your area of
10 NED-274-002 is dated, the photograph dated -- 10 expertise; correct?
11 is that October 9th, 1959? 11 A. Correct.
12 A. Looks like it, yes. 12 Q. Going to page 17 of your report,
13 Q. Okay. And you indicate that it 13 paragraph two, the last two sentences talk
14 shows areas of marsh loss adjacent to the MRGO 14 about the design of the MRGO channel. What
15 access channel? 15 about the MRGO channel led you to consider the
16 A. Yes. 16 design of the MRGO channel as opposed to any
17 Q. And is the MRGO access channel the 17 other process dealing with the MRGO channel?
18 channel that runs straight through the middle 18 A. In that -- In my phrasing there,
19 of the picture? 19 what I meant by "design" was the, you know,
20 A. Yes. 20 orientation and where it -- where it cut the
21 Q. And you're saying that this loss is 21 LaLoutre Ridge, so that the design more in the
22 likely related to erosion during the '47 22 sense of its direction and where it went,
23 hurricane which impacted the study area? 23 where it cut the LaLoutre Ridge.
24 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. So then you say that the
25 Q. Is that correct? When you say 25 increase in salinity in your study area and
Page 251 Page 253
1 "likely", do you mean that to be more than a 1 the Central Wetlands Unit was a direct result
2 50 percent chance? 2 of the design of the channel and the altered
3 A. Yes. This was area -- This is shown 3 hydrology resulting from the destruction of
4 in green on my land loss map, so the loss was 4 these natural levees. Do you believe that to
5 pre-'58. And this was the area specifically 5 be true today?
6 addressed in the CEI 1972 report as being 6 A. To the extent that the MRGO caused
7 scoured during the '47 hurricane. And from my 7 an increase in salinity, I think it was a
8 own experience, this is also the pattern and 8 result of the channel cutting that LaLoutre
9 -- and shape of loss that we saw post-Katrina 9 Ridge, yes.
10 in other areas like this from storm scour. 10 Q. Okay. Are you familiar with the
11 Q. Do you know whether there's ever 11 belief that wave wash from vessels passing up
12 been an evaluation of how much land loss took 12 the MRGO led to a widening of the channel
13 place in the marsh in your study area due to 13 greater than its designed top width?
14 Hurricane Katrina? 14 A. Yeah, I'm aware that the channel
15 A. The USGS did a study of wetland loss 15 widened significantly from its initial cut and
16 post-Katrina and I'm pretty sure it covered 16 in some areas maybe 2,000 feet additionally on
17 this area. I'm not sure how much of the coast 17 the north bank.
18 it did cover. But it was done shortly after 18 Q. And you also would be aware that as
19 Katrina and I am not sure what the numbers or 19 it was dredged over the years, that not only
20 the results were. 20 did the top width increase, but also the
21 Q. Is it within your area of expertise 21 bathymetry of the channel, because as it
22 to opine whether healthy marsh has a greater 22 widened, it widened not necessarily at a
23 likelihood of withstanding a hurricane as 23 two-on-one slope; correct?
24 opposed to unhealthy marsh? 24 MS. MILLER:
25 A. I think under certain conditions it 25 Objection.
64 (Pages 250 to 253)

Page 254 Page 256
1 THE WITNESS: 1 A. No, I don't -- I have no knowledge
2 I'm aware there's been some 2 of whether one is, you know, different than
3 changes in the shape of the channel, 3 another relative to salinity.
4 but I don't know the specifics of what 4 Q. Are you familiar with the Journal
5 those changes were. 5 Science?
7 Q. Would it be your belief that the 7 Q. Would you agree that it is a well
8 maintenance, the dredging of the channel to 8 regarded publication in the field --
9 keep it open to its necessary channel width 9 MS. MILLER:
10 would also alter the hydrology and allow a 10 Objection.
11 greater flow into the study area through the 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
12 MRGO? 12 Q. -- of --
13 A. That's not my expertise and I don't 13 A. It has a wide distribution. I'm not
14 know if I could answer that question one way 14 sure about its -- how it's regarded in
15 or the other. 15 professional circles.
16 Q. So, therefore, the only reason that 16 MR. JOANEN:
17 you can say that the design of the MRGO 17 Are we on 18?
18 resulted in the increased salinity is because 18 MS. MILLER:
19 that's all your expertise allows you to say? 19 I think you might be on 19. Yes,
20 MS. MILLER: 20 you're on -- Did you mark the Day and
21 Objection. 21 Schafer report as an exhibit?
22 THE WITNESS: 22 MR. JOANEN:
23 I think what I am inferring 23 No.
24 there, that a 36 foot deep channel, 24 MS. MILLER:
25 500 foot wide, severing the hydrologic 25 Okay. So you're on 19.
Page 255 Page 257
1 barrier of the LaLoutre Ridge, going 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
2 into saline waters in Breton Sound led 2 Q. This is an article from Science
3 to increased salinities in the study 3 Magazine entitled "Restoration of the
4 area. 4 Mississippi delta: Lessons from Hurricanes
5 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 5 Katrina and Rita" from the Science Magazine,
6 Q. So would it also follow that if that 6 volume 315, dated March 23rd, 2007. I am
7 conduit of water that you have just described 7 going to ask you to turn your attention to
8 was wider, it would allow more water to flow 8 page 2. You'll see that there are three
9 into the channel and into your area, your 9 columns. Ask you to look into the middle
10 study area? 10 column and you will see in parentheses
11 A. Again, that's not my expertise, but 11 numbers, you'll see a number 20 in parentheses
12 I do know that, you know, there's a salinity 12 italicized and then a number 21. Do you see
13 -- salinity gradient sometimes in deep -- at 13 that?
14 depth, so just because the channel is wider 14 A. The top?
15 doesn't mean, you know, the salinity -- higher 15 Q. Yes.
16 salinities might be closer to the bottom. So 16 A. Yes.
17 just by changing the width doesn't necessarily 17 Q. And then you see after 21 there's a
18 mean that the salinity may increase or 18 statement that says "Deep straight navigation
19 decrease. But again, that's not my area of 19 channels cause saltwater intrusion and death
20 expertise and I haven't measured salinity 20 of freshwater plant communities." Do you have
21 changes over time in the channel since it was 21 any reason to agree with that statement?
22 dredged. 22 A. I don't have any reason to agree or
23 Q. You are aware that straight channels 23 disagree. I don't have the experience to know
24 do increase the ability of saltwater to move 24 whether, you know, straight has anything --
25 up a channel; correct? 25 other than the shortest distance between two
65 (Pages 254 to 257)

Page 258 Page 260
1 points is a straight line, that's all. 1 since the 1800s." From what do you base that
2 Q. Okay. The next sentence says "One 2 opinion? What sources?
3 of the most notable is the MRGO Gulf Outlet," 3 A. Only that the geomorphic evidence,
4 open parenthesis, "MRGO", close parentheses, 4 meaning, you know, what you see on the surface
5 "a 12 by 300 meter canal dredged through the 5 for these barrier islands over time since the
6 Breton Sound basin in 1963. Saltwater 6 1800s show the migration of the islands, both
7 intrusion via the MRGO killed thousands of 7 landward and along shore in multiple
8 hectares of wet -- freshwater wetland 8 directions, shows -- indicates that there was
9 forest." Do you have any reason to disagree 9 a tidal or pass in between the Chandeleurs and
10 with that statement? 10 Breton Island pre-MRGO. The MRGO channel was
11 A. Again, as previously stated, I think 11 dredged in that same pass, I would say, so
12 the MRGO is one -- the MRGO and the saltwater 12 it's hard to separate out what was going on in
13 intrusion related to it is one of numerous 13 that pass relative to sediment movement, tidal
14 factors which led to the degradation and death 14 inlet formation pre-MRGO and post-MRGO. I
15 of wetlands in the study area. 15 don't think there's a lot of bathymetry to
16 Q. And you can't give a percentage of 16 identify that. So it's hard to isolate the
17 what -- 17 specific component of either, you know,
18 A. No, I cannot. 18 degradation or accretion that you want to
19 Q. In part 4 of your report -- your 19 attribute to one process. So like I said, the
20 fourth opinion, you talk about -- Do you need 20 data that they present indicates that that
21 to take a break? 21 island was migrating landward. It had recurve
22 A. Just a short one. 22 spits on it, indicating there was a tidal
23 Q. Sure. 23 inlet there that sediment would have a hard
24 VIDEO OPERATOR: 24 time crossing naturally. The MRGO was placed
25 Off the record. 25 within that inlet, but to what degree it
Page 259 Page 261
1 (Recess.) 1 stopped sediment movement, I think it would be
2 VIDEO OPERATOR: 2 hard to isolate.
3 We're now back on the record. 3 Q. Just not in isolating, but do you
4 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 4 know a percentage of the amount of sediment
5 Q. Dr. Britsch, I would like to discuss 5 that was affected or the migration of sediment
6 in your report, just very briefly, quite 6 that was affected by the MRGO channel being
7 quickly if we can, your part 4 of your 7 dredged in that area?
8 opinion, which talks about the impact of the 8 A. No.
9 MRGO on the barrier island migrations. And 9 Q. Do you know of any studies that have
10 your statement suggested there's a transient 10 been done that have attempted to quantify the
11 barrier island migration and degradation. And 11 amount of sediment that was -- the percentage,
12 my reading of this would seem to indicate that 12 the amount of sediment that was migrating
13 you're relying upon trends that date back to 13 before the MRGO channel was dredged in that
14 the late 1800s. Is that correct? 14 area?
15 A. Yes. Trends that were late 1800s 15 A. Not that I am aware of.
16 and published in the I think Pontchartrain 16 Q. And I know you said from previous
17 Atlas and also presented in the Fitzgerald 17 testimony that when you were up in Vicksburg
18 report. 18 you worked on part of the units that studied
19 Q. The final sentence of your -- in the 19 the barrier islands; correct?
20 body of your report when you get to page 17 20 A. We worked on some east coast barrier
21 where you're discussing the impacts on the 21 islands.
22 barrier islands, the final sentence indicates 22 Q. Oh, so when you were a research
23 "The impacts from the MRGO is difficult to 23 physical scientist and you said you were on a
24 quantify with any degree of certainty because 24 barrier island work unit dealing with
25 of erosion and migration patterns in place 25 processes and migration, that wasn't the
66 (Pages 258 to 261)

Page 262 Page 264
1 barrier islands in the Breton and Chandeleur 1 we can.
2 Sound areas, was it? 2 So you would agree with this
3 A. No. It was a combination. I think 3 statement that the islands were repositioning
4 I did some work while I was there on the Isles 4 themselves in a landward fashion? You would
5 Dernieres, which is in Terrebonne Parish, and 5 agree with that part of the sentence; correct?
6 also in New Jersey, North Carolina, Ocean 6 A. Yes.
7 City, Maryland. 7 Q. But you would disagree with the part
8 Q. Prior to drafting your report for 8 of the sentence that indicates that the sand
9 this litigation, have you done any independent 9 volume would be recovered? Is that correct?
10 studies regarding the history and migration of 10 A. Totally recovered, yes. And again,
11 the barrier islands of Breton Sound? 11 it's episodic. So depending on when the
12 A. No. 12 hurricanes hit and also depending on what
13 Q. You've had a chance to review the 13 photographs, time periods you choose to take
14 Fitzgerald report dated July 11, 2008, I 14 that snapshot makes a difference.
15 believe? 15 Q. I agree. When it talks about this
16 A. Yes. 16 process of step-wise retreat, is it your
17 Q. If you have it with you, I'm going 17 understanding that step-wise retreat, that
18 to ask you a few questions regarding -- 18 they are moving towards the land?
19 because I'm reading it to you, it would be 19 A. Yes.
20 easier if you can just read along. Page 3.5. 20 Q. Okay. And what is your
21 Figure 3.3, you'll see, if you work your way 21 understanding of the term "retaining their
22 down, It's the second-to-last sentence we'll 22 areal expression"? What does that mean? What
23 say. "Prior to the MRGO, hurricane --" Do 23 they look like?
24 you see that sentence? 24 A. Maintaining their same area above
25 A. Yes. 25 sea level.
Page 263 Page 265
1 Q. "Hurricane impacts resulted in 1 Q. And then if you can turn to
2 island erosion followed by a period of 2 photograph 36, the third sentence, which says
3 rebuilding during which the island recovered 3 "The landward migration of Breton Island
4 most of its sand volume and formed a new 4 ceased, see figure, and decreased sediment
5 position landward of pre-storm position." Is 5 supply, forced continuing erosion, and in
6 that statement consistent with what you were 6 place island drowning." Do you agree with
7 saying where the island was rebuilding in a 7 that statement based upon the prior two
8 landward position? 8 statements? The information contained in the
9 A. It was migrating landward, but I 9 prior two statements?
10 would -- I would disagree that -- where it 10 A. That's what this map data indicates,
11 says it would recover most of its sand 11 but they're mixing now, you know, MRGO and two
12 volume. The actual figures that they show, as 12 major hurricane impacts in there.
13 an example, look at the, you know, the sand 13 Q. Okay. The channel you talked about
14 volume in 1885 and then again on the second 14 that would have passed where the MRGO channel
15 picture in 1951, and then look at the sand 15 is now, I think you said a natural tidal
16 volume in -- on the page 38, figure 36, sand 16 channel and now you have the MRGO channel, how
17 volume in 2005. Basically non-existent. So 17 deep was the natural tidal channel?
18 in between storms, if it's regaining its sand 18 A. I don't know. But again, page 3.6,
19 volume, I don't know how the island went from, 19 that left figure, you can see the Breton
20 you know, there to gone basically. And if you 20 Island, the top part of it, it's that curved
21 look on page 3.8 on the left-hand figure -- 21 -- it curves back to the left, that's a
22 Q. No, we'll get to that. 22 recurve spit, and on Grand Gosier north of
23 A. Okay. 23 there, there's actually a little recurve spit,
24 Q. And I do not mean to cut you off, 24 indicative that there's a, you know, a flow in
25 but I do want to kind of get through this if 25 that channel. And it's the same recurve
67 (Pages 262 to 265)

Page 266 Page 268
1 nature pre-MRGO also. 1 water and does not evaluate the conversion of
2 Q. So you don't know what the natural 2 vegetation from one category to another;
3 tidal channel depth would have been, do you, 3 correct?
4 sir? 4 A. Correct.
5 A. Depth. No, I do not. 5 Q. One of the things that I have kind
6 Q. Do you know what the depth of the 6 of been thinking about all day, when you talk
7 MRGO channel in that area is when it was 7 about your understanding of the litigation,
8 designed and constructed? 8 was the effect the MRGO had on surge and wave
9 A. I think the channel out in the sound 9 height and duration of flooding, have you in
10 is a 38 foot depth. 10 your career ever studied the effects that a
11 Q. And do you know whether that 38 foot 11 hurricane has on surge?
12 depth was maintained up until Hurricane 12 A. No.
13 Katrina? 13 Q. Have you ever studied the analysis
14 A. I do not. 14 that the Corps performed I think leading up to
15 Q. Would you agree with the statement 15 a 1966 report which discussed a Standard
16 that the maintenance of the MRGO interrupts 16 Project Hurricane?
17 the delivery of sand to Breton Island from the 17 A. No.
18 south? That's a couple of sentences down. 18 Q. Do you know the difference between,
19 A. It says "Interrupts the delivery of 19 in a Standard Project Hurricane, the amount of
20 sand to Breton Island from the south." I 20 a still water height as opposed to wave
21 don't -- I don't know why dredging of the MRGO 21 run-up?
22 would interrupt the -- why it would be coming 22 A. No.
23 from the south. I don't -- I'm not 23 Q. Have you ever studied, through any
24 understanding that. 24 of your dealings with the Hydrology Department
25 Q. Okay. Is that something that's not 25 in Vicksburg, the effect of wind on wave
Page 267 Page 269
1 within your area of expertise? 1 heights?
2 A. I don't know how much sand was 2 A. No.
3 interrupted by the MRGO channel. 3 Q. The same question in your
4 Q. Okay. The next sentence says "The 4 experiences in the Hydrology Department, have
5 deep MRGO channel funnels daily tidal currents 5 you studied the effect of bathymetry on wave
6 in an offshore direction, capturing sand that 6 heights?
7 would otherwise be delivered to Breton 7 A. No.
8 Island." Do you agree with that statement? 8 Q. Have you studied any -- in your
9 A. Again, I think prior to MRGO there 9 experiences, studied the effect of surge
10 was a tidal channel there and it would have 10 relative to its duration of time being pushed
11 been a tidal delta associated with that 11 up against a man-made barrier such as a levee?
12 channel. I don't know the difference in 12 A. No.
13 volume of the tidal channel pre-MRGO and 13 MS. MILLER:
14 post-MRGO to make that decision. 14 Objection.
15 Q. Are you familiar with the depths of 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
16 the area through Breton Sound? 16 Q. Have you ever calculated, as part of
17 A. Not specifically. 17 your experience, overtopping rates of storm
18 Q. Have you ever studied the bathymetry 18 surges relative to man-made structures such as
19 of the area of Breton Sound on the landward 19 levees or floodwalls?
20 side of Breton Island, Grand Gosier Island, 20 A. No.
21 currently? 21 Q. Would you, in your course of
22 A. No. 22 experience as a Corps of Engineers employee
23 Q. Just to clarify, your figure 4, I 23 and then writing a report as an expert in this
24 believe, which shows your land loss, that 24 case, have studied the effects that tree
25 shows simply land loss converting land to 25 canopies can have in diminishing wind
68 (Pages 266 to 269)

Page 270 Page 272
1 penetration and wind stress on surface waves 1 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
2 and storm surge? 2 Q. Were you involved in any way with
3 A. No. 3 any forensic engineering of the hurricane
4 Q. Would you agree with the statement 4 protection system after Hurricane Katrina?
5 that prior to the construction of the MRGO, 5 A. Are you talking about the IPET
6 that there was an average of about 10 6 investigation?
7 kilometers of wetlands which lied between 7 Q. That or any others. Well, how would
8 Orleans and St. Bernard Parishes and Lake 8 you define "forensic engineering"?
9 Borgne? 9 A. Trying to determine what factors
10 MS. MILLER: 10 contributed to an event.
11 Objection. 11 Q. And you would agree that IPET is the
12 THE WITNESS: 12 type of report coming -- that would --
13 I haven't measured that distance. 13 A. They did that.
14 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 14 Q. -- result from having --
15 Q. Have you studied the ability of 15 A. I did not work for IPET.
16 marsh and wetlands to reduce storm surge? 16 Q. Did you do any other forensic
17 MS. MILLER: 17 engineering for the Corps of Engineers for the
18 Objection. We're not offering 18 effects of Hurricane Katrina other than this
19 him as an expert in storm surge. I 19 particular report?
20 think he's testified that those things 20 A. I didn't do -- You know, again, I'm
21 are not within his area of expertise. 21 not an engineer so I didn't do any
22 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 22 engineering. But, you know, we did
23 Q. Answer. 23 investigate or look at previous data for
24 A. No. 24 geology and soil types around some of the
25 Q. Have you, in formulating your 25 floodwalls within the -- within New Orleans --
Page 271 Page 273
1 opinions for your report, studied the effects 1 you know, within the city.
2 that fetch has over wave development? 2 Q. It's your testimony that the
3 A. No. 3 analysis of the effect of the MRGO on the
4 Q. Have you, in formulating your 4 Breton Island areas, that doesn't involve
5 opinion regarding your expert report, 5 engineering?
6 considered the effect that shallow water 6 A. Could you -- Could you rephrase
7 depths will have on waves via bottom friction 7 that? I'm not sure.
8 and breaking? 8 MR. JOANEN:
9 A. No. 9 Could you repeat the question?
10 Q. Have you, in formulating your expert 10 (Requested question read back.)
11 opinion regarding your report, considered the 11 THE WITNESS:
12 frictional drag of vegetation and wave 12 No, it's -- I have made my
13 attenuation? 13 decision purely on the geomorphic
14 MS. MILLER: 14 evidence that I see from the mapping.
15 The same objection. Can we agree 15 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
16 that, you know, factors related to 16 Q. And what is geomorphic evidence?
17 storm surge or this entire line of 17 A. The surface expression of a feature
18 questioning are areas that are outside 18 and its change over time.
19 the expertise for which he's being 19 Q. So it's your opinion that the
20 offered? 20 changes are indicated only by the overview
21 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 21 that you are getting?
22 Q. Okay. You can answer. 22 MS. MILLER:
23 A. No. 23 Objection. I think that's
24 MS. MILLER: 24 vague.
25 I mean, -- 25 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
69 (Pages 270 to 273)

Page 274 Page 276
1 Q. Did you not understand my question? 1 duties?
2 A. Yes. I'm looking at those official 2 A. Yes.
3 map data to indicate what's -- how the 3 Q. Have you prepared at any time before
4 island's migrating and which way it's moving. 4 this a report which you were presenting as an
5 And obvious- -- you know, I'm aware that there 5 expert with the intention that it would be
6 are materials in the subsurface, but the 6 utilized for litigation purposes?
7 movement on the surface usually reflects how 7 A. I never -- I haven't produced a
8 those are moving also. 8 report previous to this one.
9 Q. And so from a layman's perspective, 9 Q. When was the first time you wrote a
10 you're taking various pictures, I guess, 10 draft of the report that ultimately became the
11 overlaying them on top of each other and 11 final report, December 18, 2008?
12 you're seeing where it's migrating? Is that 12 MS. MILLER:
13 correct? 13 I'll object to these questions to
14 A. I didn't. The -- Fitzgerald did and 14 the extent the drafts are protected
15 then the Pontchartrain Atlas, they did. I 15 pursuant to the protective order.
16 looked at that information and -- 16 MR. JOANEN:
17 Q. And so -- 17 Well, I am not asking what the
18 A. -- drew my own conclusions from 18 contents were. I'm must asking when.
19 that. 19 MS. MILLER:
20 Q. So when you're discussing the 20 I understand.
21 effects of the MRGO on the barrier islands, 21 THE WITNESS:
22 the Breton Island impact, are you relying on 22 I don't recall the exact date. I
23 information other than the geomorphic and 23 think it was toward the end of 2007.
24 migration data presented by Fitzgerald in 24 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
25 their expert reports? 25 Q. What photographs did you rely upon
Page 275 Page 277
1 A. That's the only datum I am relying 1 in preparing your expert report? Did the
2 on. And then my experience as to barrier 2 Corps of Engineers give you anything?
3 island migration and what some of -- some of 3 A. Again, all -- we have the -- you
4 those geomorphic features indicate. 4 know, the photography that was used for the
5 Q. And again, your experience does not 5 land loss analysis that I had already
6 deal with the barrier islands for the Breton 6 previously looked at to come up with the land
7 Sound; correct? 7 loss mapping. Also there's photography from
8 A. No, but barrier island processes in 8 the National Archives. The Corps of Engineers
9 general which could be applied to the barrier 9 photography of the channel, which I think you
10 islands in Breton Sound. 10 all have copies of. And I think there might
11 Q. What other barrier island processes 11 have been some U.S. Forestry Service
12 have you studied that had a 38 foot channel 12 photography that I looked at.
13 running in their near vicinity? 13 Q. Did Miss Miller or any other
14 A. None that I have previously studied. 14 attorneys with the Department of Justice
15 Q. Just a couple of quick questions. I 15 provide you with any photographs?
16 don't mean to imply anything. Have you ever 16 A. Yes, they have got -- when they had
17 been convicted of a felony before? 17 access to those photography, they also gave me
18 A. No. 18 a copy.
19 Q. Have you ever been arrested for a 19 Q. And the photographs they provided
20 crime that involved fraud? 20 you were different than the photographs that
21 A. No. 21 you had reviewed prior to your first draft of
22 Q. Are you being compensated for your 22 your expert report?
23 preparation of this report? 23 A. I have reviewed some additional
24 A. Not other than my regular duties. 24 photography subsequent to my first draft.
25 Q. It was just part and parcel of your 25 Q. And do you still have those
70 (Pages 274 to 277)

Page 278 Page 280
1 available with you? 1 MR. JOANEN:
2 A. They're what I -- They're part of 2 I would ask that we not attach
3 what I mentioned to you as far as what I 3 this to the record.
4 reviewed. 4 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
5 Q. And what did you bring with you 5 Q. But I'll just show it to you because
6 today? 6 it's already part of the depositions. Is that
7 A. Just copies of my report. 7 -- When you read the bottom of that, the
8 Q. That's it? 8 caption indicates that that was provided by
9 A. And a couple of maps in case you 9 Mr. Barras, who will be testifying tomorrow.
10 asked, it might have been helpful, a 10 Do you know whether your figure 4 is the same
11 description. 11 as that figure 55 that was provided by Mr.
12 Q. What are they maps of? 12 Barras?
13 A. Just an enlarged copy of the land 13 A. It includes a little bit more water
14 loss map that's shown as figure 4 and an 14 area, but I think it's essentially the same.
15 enlarged copy of the map in figure 5. 15 Q. Okay. Have you had a chance to read
16 Q. Did you discuss your conclusions 16 Mr. Barras' report, his final report?
17 with any other experts for the Defendants? 17 A. Yes, I did. And I think I left that
18 MS. MILLER: 18 out. When I listed the reports, I forgot that
19 Objection. 19 name.
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 20 Q. Did you have a chance to review his
21 Q. Prior to December 18, 2008? 21 draft reports as well?
22 A. I don't think I specifically 22 A. I don't think I reviewed any draft
23 discussed them. They were in my draft report 23 report by Mr. Barras.
24 that I am not sure who read or may have read. 24 Q. In reading Mr. Barras' report, do
25 Q. Okay. Do you know whether any of 25 you believe that his numerical calculations
Page 279 Page 281
1 the other expert reports for the Defendants 1 regarding the acreage within the study area is
2 utilized the information that is contained in 2 accurate and consistent with what your numbers
3 your expert report? 3 are?
4 A. I think Westerink used the area that 4 A. He was calculating habitats. I
5 I am calling my study area for some of the 5 calculated land loss. So I don't think we --
6 modeling that they did. And that's the only 6 We're different. They're different.
7 specific thing that I am aware of that I 7 Q. Do you know whether he was
8 remember. 8 calculating habitats within the same Central
9 Q. And that's -- 9 Wetlands Unit as you were?
10 VIDEO OPERATOR: 10 A. I didn't calculate habitats at all.
11 Excuse me. I'm sorry. We need 11 Q. That was a bad question. Do you
12 to go off the record to change tapes. 12 know whether he was calculating acreage of
13 End of tape 6. We're going off 13 habitats of the Central Wetlands Unit which
14 the record. 14 was consistent with the acreage that you have
15 (Whereupon a discussion was held 15 in your Central Wetlands Unit?
16 off the record.) 16 MS. MILLER:
17 VIDEO OPERATOR: 17 Objection.
18 This is the beginning of tape 7. 18 THE WITNESS:
19 We're back on the record. 19 I didn't calculate acreage in the
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 20 Central Wetlands Unit per se. I
21 Q. Before we went offline, you 21 calculated land loss within the
22 indicated that you believe that your figure 4 22 Central Wetlands Unit.
23 was utilized by Dr. Westerink in his report. 23 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
24 I'll show you page 120, figure 55, from Dr. 24 Q. That's right. Because your previous
25 Westerink's report. 25 testimony was you don't know how many acres
71 (Pages 278 to 281)

Page 282 Page 284
1 are contained in your Central Wetlands Unit. 1 Q. If you were to present a paper for
2 Correct? As you sat here today, you didn't 2 peer review, do you think that this paper
3 know the acreage of your Central Wetlands 3 would qualify for publication in a pier review
4 Unit; correct? 4 periodical such as Science Magazine or
5 A. I didn't specifically put that 5 something of that nature?
6 number in here, but I do have that 6 MS. MILLER:
7 information. 7 Objection.
8 Q. Did you provide that information to 8 THE WITNESS:
9 Mr. Barras for his report? 9 I haven't given it any thought.
10 A. No. I provided the outline of the 10 I have no idea.
11 study area, that I called the study area to 11 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
12 Mr. Barras. 12 Q. Just one second. Just let me go
13 Q. Do you know where he would have 13 through this real quick.
14 gotten his calculations regarding acreage of 14 In your study unit, the MRGO study
15 his Central Wetlands Unit? 15 unit that's contained in your report, that's
16 A. I'm assuming he put that shape into 16 not a study area of a million acres, is it?
17 his GIS database and then calculated the 17 A. Did you say not a study area over a
18 acreage. 18 million acres?
19 Q. Did you provide acreage that is 19 Q. A study area of a million acres.
20 contained in your study area that encapsulates 20 A. I don't know the acreage in that
21 the area from the golden triangle to Proctor 21 study unit. I don't -- I do not think it's
22 Point? 22 over a million.
23 MS. MILLER: 23 Q. Would the acreage of your study area
24 Objection. Provide? 24 be contained in your report?
25 THE WITNESS: 25 A. No, it's not. But I can -- I have
Page 283 Page 285
1 Provide to who? 1 that. You know, I can calculate that.
2 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 2 Q. Do you know whether there were --
3 Q. Mr. Barras. 3 how many oil and natural gas canals were
4 A. Like I said, I only -- I provided 4 within the Central Wetlands Unit?
5 Mr. Barras the polygon or the shape that was 5 MS. MILLER:
6 my entire study area in one -- one shape, one 6 Objection. It's vague as to the
7 area. 7 time frame you're asking about.
8 Q. And did that polygon that you 8 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
9 provided to him have with it the entire sum of 9 Q. At any point that you know of. It's
10 the acreage contained within that study area? 10 got to be a limited amount of time, because
11 A. Again, I only provided him a shape 11 the oil and gas industry's only been around
12 of the study area, outlining the study area. 12 since the '50s in southeast Louisiana.
13 Q. So you just gave him a picture with 13 A. I didn't count the number.
14 no numbers associated with it? 14 Q. Do you think it would be any more
15 A. I didn't give him any numbers. I 15 than one?
16 gave him a shape. 16 MS. MILLER:
17 Q. Do you intend to do any additional 17 Objection. He said he didn't
18 research between now and trial in April to 18 calculate it.
19 further your opinions as they're written in 19 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
20 your expert report? 20 Q. You can look at them and not count
21 A. Not at this time. 21 them and know whether it's one or many or --
22 Q. Do you intend to present this report 22 A. Well, it's also -- there are also
23 for peer review, hoping to get it published 23 canals, but I don't know necessarily if
24 somewhere? 24 they're oil and gas canals. There are canals
25 A. No. 25 for other purposes, so I wouldn't actually
72 (Pages 282 to 285)

Page 286 Page 288
1 have the knowledge of the oil and gas canals. 1 water tupelo swamps in the Central Wetlands
2 Q. All right. Do you know the depth of 2 Unit?
3 the holocene layer along the south shore of 3 A. Yes, on page 10 it says "Before
4 Lake Borgne adjacent to the wetlands where the 4 construction of MRGO, there were tens of
5 Reach 2 MRGO levee is? 5 thousands of acres of healthy bald cypress
6 A. The thickness of the holocene layer? 6 water tupelo swamp in this area."
7 Q. Yes. How far down in the holocene 7 Page 11, I'm looking here, on the
8 layer do you go before you get to the 8 last paragraph it says "The construction of
9 pleistocene in that area? 9 the MRGO directly caused the destruction of
10 A. I think it varies from about 80 feet 10 tens of thousands of acres of wetlands and led
11 down to maybe 110. 11 to the indirect death of tens of thousands of
12 MR. JOANEN: 12 additional acres of the wetlands."
13 I don't have any further 13 Let's see. Where's the swamp.
14 questions. 14 Here you go. In the second paragraph it says
15 MS. MILLER: 15 "Wetlands were much more extensive than now.
16 I just had a couple of things I 16 In particular, there were, as noted, ten of
17 wanted to clarify. 17 thousands of acres of healthy bald cypress
18 MR. JOANEN: 18 water tupelo swamp in the Central Wetlands
19 With your own witness? 19 Unit."
20 MS. MILLER: 20 Q. Okay.
21 Yes. 21 A. And then on the last, on page 12, it
22 MR. JOANEN: 22 says "Salinity killed tens of thousands of
23 Excellent. 23 acres of bald cypress water tupelo swamps in
24 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 24 the Central Wetlands Unit alone."
25 Q. First, I just wanted to add one 25 Q. Okay. So that could be where, when
Page 287 Page 289
1 exhibit if we could. 1 you were citing to those statements by the
2 MS. MILLER: 2 Plaintiffs --
3 Could we use one of your exhibit 3 A. Correct.
4 stickers? I guess it would be Exhibit 4 Q. -- you used the Plaintiffs' report?
5 20. 5 MR. JOANEN:
6 MR. JOANEN: 6 I object to the form
7 I have 19. Is this one 20? 7 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
8 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 8 Q. And lastly, you were also asked
9 Q. And this is the expert report by 9 questions by Mr. Joanen about your opinions on
10 John Day and Gary Schaefer dated September 15, 10 land loss trends and how you reached them.
11 2007. You do recognize that; right? 11 And I just wanted to clarify that your land
12 A. Yes. 12 loss study that you have discussed today is
13 Q. And is that one of the expert 13 cited in your report and is publicly
14 reports from the Plaintiffs that you reviewed 14 available. Is that right?
15 in preparing your expert report? 15 A. Yes.
16 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that you did certain
17 Q. And is that perhaps where some of 17 calculations in order to reach your
18 your references to the tens of thousands of 18 conclusions expressed in your report; right?
19 acres of healthy bald cypress swamp were drawn 19 A. Yes.
20 from? 20 Q. And are those calculations things
21 A. Yes, I used this report to get some 21 that could be replicated by anyone else that
22 of my information from the Plaintiffs' report. 22 has access to your study?
23 Q. If you look at pages 10, 11, and 12, 23 A. Yes.
24 do those all contain reference to tens of 24 Q. Okay.
25 thousands of acres of healthy bald cypress 25 MS. MILLER:
73 (Pages 286 to 289)

Page 290 Page 292
1 And to the extent any of those 1 calculations that were actually run.
2 calculations haven't already been 2 MR. JOANEN:
3 provided to the Plaintiffs, those are 3 I appreciate that. The reason I
4 things that we can provide for you 4 am asking the questions, you brought
5 all. You know, perhaps if they were 5 it up, but that's part and parcel of
6 overlooked, including -- including 6 what our motion to compel that was
7 them in this report, we can certainly 7 filed yesterday is all about. We have
8 provide those. That's all I wanted to 8 been asking for these things for many,
9 clarify for the record. 9 many weeks.
10 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 10 MS. MILLER:
11 Q. Based upon that question, let me ask 11 Well, the motion to compel will
12 you how many things have you not provided to 12 be something that will dealt with by
13 the Plaintiffs? 13 the Court and outside the context of
14 MS. MILLER: 14 this deposition. I just wanted to
15 Well, object to that question as 15 offer, you know, for the record,
16 argumentative. 16 clarify that the data from that land
17 MR. JOANEN: 17 loss study is publicly available and,
18 Well, it's a direct response to 18 you know, to the extent you all need
19 your question. 19 additional information about it, we
20 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 20 will provide it. The same study is
21 Q. What have you not provided? 21 cited in your expert report and, you
22 A. Those are raw data that I used to 22 know, I would -- If there's anything
23 come up with my conclusions and results I 23 else you all need, it can be
24 present in this report. 24 provided. The reason I raised it, the
25 Q. And you are admitting -- 25 motion to compel obviously will be
Page 291 Page 293
1 A. I made those calculations and they 1 dealt with by the Judge.
2 can be provided. 2 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN:
3 Q. And you're admitting they have not 3 Q. The data that Counsel has referenced
4 been provided to date; correct? 4 and says is publicly available, where would
5 A. The specific calculations for 5 someone like me go find it?
6 individual units, they weren't in the report. 6 A. It's a website. I think I have it
7 Q. Has anyone from the Department of 7 referenced in my references.
8 Justice asked you to maintain those and to 8 Q. And on this website, are we able to
9 produce them to them to be turned over? 9 decipher what was utilized by you and what was
10 A. It's possible, but, again, I -- I 10 not utilized by you?
11 didn't think they needed to be part of my 11 A. Well, I think I have identified what
12 report and I didn't include them as part of my 12 I am calling the study area. And the entire
13 report. 13 coastal land loss study is on the website, you
14 MS. MILLER: 14 know, the maps themselves. So you can, you
15 Just for the record, I brought 15 know, relate this study area to the maps any
16 this up, the study itself is publicly 16 which way you want.
17 available. The questions you were 17 Q. So basically what you're saying is,
18 asking earlier today about 18 it's out there and it would be incumbent upon
19 calculations, we discussed it and 19 us to figure out what you used and didn't use
20 these can be provided. You know, the 20 in coming up with your ultimate conclusions?
21 information is all in the report 21 MS. MILLER:
22 that's publicly available. And to the 22 Objection. That misstates the
23 extent any of it has not already been 23 testimony.
24 provided to you, that was an oversight 24 THE WITNESS:
25 and we will give you copies of the 25 Everything I used relative to
74 (Pages 290 to 293)

Page 294 Page 296
1 calculating land loss is within this 1
2 study area boundary. 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3 EXAMINATION BY MR. JOANEN: 3
4 Q. And you said you did calculations 4 I, ROGER D. JOHNS, RMR, RDR, CRR,
5 for that to come up with those conclusions? 5 Certified Court Reporter, do hereby certify
6 A. I calculated the number of acres 6 that the above-named witness, after having
7 which I discussed in here relative to certain 7 been first duly sworn by me to testify to the
8 processes, land loss processes. 8 truth, did testify as hereinabove set forth;
9 MR. JOANEN: 9 that the testimony was reported by me in
10 I don't have any other 10 shorthand and transcribed under my personal
11 questions. 11 direction and supervision, and is a true and
12 VIDEO OPERATOR: 12 correct transcript, to the best of my ability
13 Off the record. 13 and understanding; that I am not of counsel,
14 * * * 14 not related to counsel or the parties hereto,
15 15 and not in any way interested in the outcome
16 16 of this matter.
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20 ROGER D. JOHNS
21 21 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER
22 22 STATE OF LOUISIANA
23 23
24 24
25 25
Page 295
1
2 WITNESS'S CERTIFICATE
3
4 I, LOUIS D. BRITSCH, III, read or
5 have had the preceding testimony read to me,
6 and hereby certify that it is a true and
7 correct transcription of my testimony, with
8 the exception of any attached corrections or
9 changes.
10
11
_____________________
12 (Witness' Signature)
13 ____________
DATE SIGNED
14
15 DEPONENT PLEASE INITIAL ONE:
16
_____ Read with no corrections
17
18 _____ Read and correction sheet attached
19
20
DATE TAKEN: FEBRUARY 5, 2009
21
22
23
24
25
75 (Pages 294 to 296)

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A acreages 241:15 251:6 207:18 215:1 110:11 120:21

abandoned 201:25 acres 108:20,22,25 adjacent 87:24 228:14,17 229:19 121:7 146:16,22
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academic 180:6 287:19,25 288:5 adverse 115:17 allow 8:18 9:23 42:16 43:23 45:2
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108:9 238:20 add 167:19 168:6 agencies 34:1 35:1 altered 112:4,6 2:1 3:1
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283:10 284:20,23 address 81:23 82:2 180:2,4,10 181:10 31:10 67:22 99:2 applying 18:20
addressed 120:24 188:9,14 190:10 107:19 109:5 58:24

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appointments 95:23 97:1 98:11 186:19 188:9,20 84:11 87:24 105:7 289:8 291:8
10:16 98:19,20 99:12,17 189:8,10,12 106:22 114:22 asking 8:3 25:3
appreciate 292:3 99:19,21 100:2,12 191:12 192:19 115:1 119:10,11 48:17 62:8 130:21
approached 49:15 100:18 101:15,25 194:20,20 195:3 119:14,19 123:5 141:6 145:5
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approximation 115:9,13 116:3,8 216:1,5 217:4,13 251:10 253:16 assigned 42:13,14
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95:2,12,14,18,19 179:4 181:3,6,11 29:14 30:8 39:5 203:7 278:10 257:7

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262:13 280:15,20 265:17,25 266:3,7 classified 170:25 combination 111:9 complete 33:4
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283:10 284:15,24 79:20 32:15,20 34:15 291:4 295:7 crossed 96:3,25
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131:2 292:13 converted 179:5 59:10 67:13 68:8 corrections 295:8 193:24 194:24
contiguous 30:8 218:13 68:21 70:2,3,24 295:16 260:24
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37:11 241:6 267:25 76:4 77:22 80:2 249:17 296:4
244:20 convicted 275:17 80:22,23 81:3 correlate 247:11 CSR 3:7
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LOUIS BRITSCH, III February 5, 2009

IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION

PERTAINS TO: MRGO ROBINSON JUDGE DUVAL

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

current 13:10 125:6,7,9,20,25 damaging 218:7 238:15,16 239:5 241:14

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285

202:18 126:25 242:11 difference 46:12 discrepancy 232:22 doctoral 55:12

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285