INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF RADIO JUNE 8, 2013 RUSH TRANSCRIPT: Catherine Dunphy

Click here for video Click here for audio [REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]: Welcome back to State of Belief Radio, everyone. Im Welton Gaddy. Can you imagine building a life, career and ministry on a religious vocation that you, one day, realize has become an empty performance? Can you imagine spending years as a faith leader, only to realize you no longer possess the faith that you espoused? A vitally important resource for men and women facing this seemingly impossible situation is The Clergy Project, an organization that works to support and encourage individuals going through the very experience I just described. And I'm very pleased to welcome Catherine Dunphy, Executive Director of The Clergy Project, to State of Belief Radio. Catherine, thanks so much for being with us today. [CATHERINE DUNPHY, GUEST]: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm really happy to be here. [WG]: Would you please describe how The Clergy Project came about, and the kinds of individuals that come to you for help? [CD]: Well, The Clergy Project came about through kind of a collection of ways We had several different founders. The first was conversations that went on

between Dan Barker, from the Freedom from Religion Foundation with Richard Dawkins about the dilemma of being a pastor or a religious leader whose lost their faith. The second major way that it was developed was through a research study out of Tufts University between Daniel Dennett and Linda LaScola. That Tufts study was called "Preachers Who Are Not Believers." And that was really where a large pool of the members for The Clergy Project came from. So it was founded in March 2011 - so it's just over to years old - and we were founded with 52 founding members of The Clergy Project, of which I am one of. And so the idea was to create a forum - a private, password-protected forum - where members could talk about what it's like to go through this struggle of losing your faith and then moving out of ministry and into the wider world. [WG]: Right. I remember the research project well, and the interest that I had in it when it was released. As I recall, that project focused on about five people or six people, something like that, and obviously made me wonder how many people do you estimate are going through this kind of traumatic change? [CD]: Well, we don't really have any firm estimates on that. It is something that we would love to look at - I mean, in the last two years we've basically tried to just hit the ground running and create this little community, and we've only really started taking applications to the project since October 2011. And so - we've grown from 52 to nearly 500 in that period of time, and we've done very little by way of promoting our existence - aside from talking to members of the media like yourself - but not a large-scale promotion or anything along those lines. It's really mostly been word-of-mouth. But it seems that people are finding us. They're discovering us on their own, and right now we're really quite happy that it's working out, or unfolding, in that way. I would hope that in the future, we'd be able to make an estimate, or have a more thorough study to say what we think the trends will be in this area. [WG]: So Catherine, when you say that you started with 52 and you're now up to 500 - these are people who have been through that experience, is that correct? [CD]: Yes. [WG]: It's not just people interested in helping such individuals - it's those individuals. [CD]: Yes. The "helpers," if you will, or the volunteers that help screen new applicants, that help set up programs, that are on our board of directors - they are all members of The Clergy Project. And we have that as a requirement because it's such a sensitive issue, and people need to have their anonymity protected - particularly if they're still active and trying to work their way out of being a religious leader. So we're very cognizant of privacy and the need to untangle yourself from your job and all of the kind of cascading things that happen when you make this type of life change. It doesn't just happen in

isolation; it impacts their family, it impacts their community, it impacts their employment and self-esteem - so it's not unlike many other types of discernment processes, and not unlike going through, I would say, maybe a divorce or a death. [WG]: I, as you know, am interested in interreligious concerns, and I'm curious: are there several faith traditions represented among the 500? Or do most of these come out of one of the Christian denominations - or is it a factor that you're finding across the usual boundaries of religious leaders? [CD]: Well, it is interfaith, and it's been pretty much like that from the beginning. It is predominantly a Christian phenomenon, but I think that's part and parcel of the fact that The Clergy Project was created in the United States, and the United States is a predominantly Christian nation - or, the people in the United States are predominantly Christian. But we do have representation from active and former rabbis, as well as active and former imams. And we recognize - I believe we also have a Baha'i religious leader as well, so we're cognizant of the fact that we want to be pluralistic. [WG]: Good for you. [CD]: We would like to welcome religious leaders from other faith traditions. [WG]: Yeah, because, I mean, my assumption was that this is a human phenomenon, and it would stretch across all traditions, and I'm really glad to hear you say that you're open to that. Catherine, I don't actually know how to ask this question, so I may stumble through it, but, how long does it take for an individual to move from - and you're going to know the steps much better than I - but move from questions and dissatisfaction within a tradition to entertaining doubt about that tradition and then finally crossing the line between doubt and just saying, "I just don't believe that"? Is that a lengthy process, or is it individual - how is that? [CD]: I would say, by and large, the majority of the members of TCP had a very long process when it came to losing their faith and identifying as a non-believer. For the vast majority of members, its not something that was, kind of, like a light switch moment, right? There have been a couple who, when confronted with particular facts, said, "That's it. I don't believe anymore," but for the vast, vast majority, it was a long, arduous discernment process where they constantly looked at the arguments for and against - for myself included. I went through several years of reviewing where I was as an individual and my relationship to my church community. And it took me, probably, three to four tears, and I would say that it takes most members at least that amount of time. [WG]: I see. And the reason I ask the question is also, then, to segue to this question: I would think - I mean, I know what it's like to struggle with questions I can't answer, or I know what it's like to doubt some things that I don't feel like are

absolutely critical for me to affirm to do what I do, but I know what that takes out of a person - and if you're in a situation with people looking to you for religious leadership, and you're struggling with the source for which that leadership is supposed to be attached - it's bound to take a toll through anxiety and depression and maybe even self-negation. So when people get to you, are they pretty well exhausted, I guess is the word? [CD]: Yes, I would say by and large, people are... Well, first, they're really thankful, and I think I need to articulate that. Because they're so happy that they have found a community, and when you're dealing with religious leaders, you're dealing with people that like community and like that context, and see the value and support and energy that is encouraged in that way. And so generally, people are really, really happy that they know they have peers, that they're not alone and that's usually the first thing that's articulated. And then it's, you know, "This is what I'm struggling with." And that is the really wonderful thing about The Clergy Project's private forum, is that here is a place for you to articulate everything that you're enduring - the pain, the suffering, the challenges of communicating your change in worldview - and you have a community of peers who understand that process. And I think that that helps to encourage, and it helps to alleviate some of the stress that the members are facing. But we've also been able to plug into other resources, for example, Recovering from Religion founder Dr. Darrel Ray invited members of The Clergy Project who are in need of counseling to take part in the Therapist Project, so there's free therapy services available - with anonymity - for Clergy Project members who are experiencing a high level of stress around these issues. [WG]: Are there other services that you want to mention? I mean, I think that, what you just said, absolutely would be basic; are there other services that The Clergy Project offers? [CD]: Yes. We've just been able to offer an employment assistance grant through a new program that was funded by Todd Stiefel and his Freethought Foundation... [WG]: Todd's been on the show, by the way, so people know who you're talking about. [CD]: ...Yes. So Todd helped us to create and helped us to come up with this program utilizing the services of an outplacement company. This company will assess the skill set of a member who is going through the program, help them with testing, update their resume, do interview prep - all those resources and things that they would need in order to make themselves stand out as an appropriate candidate for a job outside of ministry. And so it's been a really important program, because clergypersons have a tremendous amount to offer outside of active ministry. When you think about how much a pastor or a priest or a minister does when it comes to the operations of a congregation - many of

those skills can be translated into community development, into operations at a nonprofit, into particular levels of government - so there are a lot of skills that are there that can be translated. But it does take some sort of process in order to communicate that value to someone outside of ministry. [WG]: It is such an immensely personal, and I'm sure painful area of one's life to have to reflect on and deal with, and then find transition from. You're the Executive Director of The Clergy Project, but you're also someone who has lived through this experience, as you said. Do you mind talking about your own experience? [CD]: Sure, I can give you a little bit of background about my experience. I would say that my experience, even though it was tremendously - I found it very challenging, and spent quite a lot of time in discernment and trying to understand where I was, and where I wanted to be - at the time that I made the transition and let go of my faith and started to identify as a non-believer, I didn't have a lot of familial expectations on me. But for me, I was a Roman Catholic chaplain doing hospital work - community care - and I was actually just finishing my Master's program when I had what felt like a lightbulb moment, but really was spending eight years studying theology, where I recognized that I didn't actually believe these things; that it wasn't how I saw myself. Yes, there were values that I saw articulated that resonated with me, but the doctrines, the statements of faith - the felt hollow for me. And I felt that the ideals I aspired to were more the Humanist persuasion. And so after going back and forth, and trying to do my job, and trying to finish my program, I just came to a place where it felt like it just broke. And at the time it was quite challenging, and even, in some ways, it still remains so, with navigating the personal relationships - particularly with my mother and my siblings, because my mother, at the time that I was graduating with my MDiv, my mother was actually working as a missionary in a developing nation. And so I come from a long... Very many priests and nuns in my family; and actually, part of the reason I studied theology was I was at the door of the convent when I was 18. And the mother superior said to me that I should go and study theology before I entered, so I could make a better decision. And so it was very difficult to stand there and say, "Well, I love and respect you, but I no longer value this in my life," especially when my entire family... It kind of felt like, orbited the church. [WG]: Yeah. When you were going through that, did you have any resources even similar to what The Clergy Project offers that you could turn to at that time? [CD]: I had nothing. It was a pretty alienating experience to feel like I had changed my worldview, and that there was noone that I could speak to about it. And I just felt like I kind of snuck off and lost ties, and maybe part of that was self-alienation, but I felt that there was something wrong with me. The idea that I kept rolling over in my brain was, "How could I go through this much study and this much work in theology, and I don't believe any of it. I'm an Atheist." But that's

just who I am; that's just how I think; and that's just what I believe. And so I just kind of sat with it, and was quiet with it for quite a long time. And I think, believe it or not, the time I spent on retreat helped me a great deal in discerning how I truly felt about it, and where I wanted to go from there. But I didn't have any resources, nothing to plug into. I had to go and make a new career with the degrees that I had. I had to network; I had to push my own boundaries; and I was lucky that I had the flexibility to do that at the time. I would say that for most members of The Clergy Project, that is not the case. They do not have that flexibility. They have family obligations aside from the pain and suffering that their change in worldview might - or will most likely - inflict on their family members. They don't have the ability to kind of roll with the punches and all of a sudden find a new career. And so that's what makes The Clergy Project so important. [WG]: I have two very important questions to ask, and about two minutes left, so I need you to be succinct, though it's unfair. There's very possible that someone is listening to this program who's going through that kind of crisis. What would you say to that person? [CD]: I would say that they should reach out. They should contact us and talk to some of our screeners. And if The Clergy Project is not the right fit for them - say they don't consider themselves to be non-believers - then there are other resources that I would recommend, such as Recovering from Religion, or also, possibly talking to someone through the therapist project. So I would say contact us, because even if this isn't the community for you, we want to do what we can to help you. So please visit our website, then, at clergyproject.org. [WG]: I think equally important - and maybe even more complex: what would you say to the people surrounding that clergyperson, friends, family, congregation? What do they need to know? [CD]: I would say that the person that you love and know is still the same person. Their worldview has changed, and it's their personal perspective. They most likely don't want to change your position; they don't want to have you migrate your beliefs away from how you believe; they only want you to remember to continue to embrace them; continue to see them as the person that you love. Because those things have not changed. [WG]: Excellent, just excellent. Catherine Dunphy is Executive Director of The Clergy Project, a unique organization providing support and assistance to faith leaders who find themselves no longer believing in the message they were obligated to preach. More information is available at clergyproject.org Catherine, your work is merciful and demonstrates a profound commitment to

courage, and integrity, and truth. Thank you for sharing this information with us. We all need to be aware of it, but if there are people who needed to hear your invitation - even more so, we're grateful. So thanks so much for being with us today on State of Belief Radio. [CD]: Thank you so much, and thank you for all the good work you do in interfaith dialogue.

State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America the most religiously diverse country in the world while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for sectarian purposes. Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy offers listeners critical analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty. Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the firm belief that the best way to secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong wrong for America and bad for religion. Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and field reports from around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes diverse religious voices in a religiously pluralistic world. Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy leads the national non-partisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith Alliance and serves as Pastor for Preaching and Worship at Northminster (Baptist) Church in Monroe, Louisiana. In addition to being a prolific writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America, while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for sectarian purposes.

Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News, and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on NBC affiliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets. While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy emerged as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists. Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on the White House task force on the reform of the Office of Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from 1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the Christian Life Commission from 1973-77. Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University in Jackson, Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.