PODCAST ASSIGNMENT TRANSCRIPT Sarah: ...

Ok, for any new listeners who have just tuned in, youre listening to Sarah, Phoebe and Jane on ABC Radio. If youve wondered what youve missed, dont worry: you havent missed much. In fact, youre just in time to hear us discuss one of the most unresolved issues we face today in Australia. Just five minutes ago Phoebe was updating us on some of the latest in breaking news, but what were shortly going to talk about is something just as, if not, more important, yet something that is not often brought to the attention of the public in the news at all.

Jane: In actual fact Sarah, many Australians today go through their day to day lives without being aware of or realising that this is a massive issue at all, and though we have come a long way with it since the arrival of the First Fleet in the late 1700s, we still have a long way to go. Phoebe: Yes, thats correct Jane. If you havent already guessed, the issue that we are referring to is the reconciliation process in Australia between the Indigenous and nonIndigenous communities.

Sarah: Phoebe, before we proceed further into this discussion, can you clarify and tell us exactly what you mean when you are referring to the term reconciliation, and in what context are you focusing on?

Phoebe: Well Sarah, a search for the definition of the term reconciliation would reveal a number of different interpretations and these differing interpretations shape how an individual or a group of people live their lives. The dictionary describes reconciliation as the reestablishment of a relationship. Christians would relate to this definition as during the sacrament of penance where sins are confessed to a priest, they reconcile with God, themselves and the community.

Sarah: But Phoebe my understanding is that reconciliation can mean something different to all Australians, particularly to the Indigenous people. Phoebe: Yes, youre correct Sarah. To Australians, reconciliation is a process between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal people establishing a relationship that recognises injustices of the past with regards to the dispossession of the Indigenous people. Jane: So Ive noticed Phoebe, that when you explained the term reconciliation to Sarah, you used the perspectives of various different groups, such as Christians and the Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples. Are these the same groups who promote reconciliation or are there different ones?

Sarah: Thats a good question Jane, and I know that you were directing that question towards Phoebe, but its such an interesting topic that youve brought up and I would love to answer it.

So, typically, many of the Christian religions have very much the same perspective on this issue. The Anglicans, Uniting Church and Catholics all agree that the divide between Aborigines and White Australians needs to be mended, so that the future is one of a shared faith. The Christians all regret their ancestors actions towards the Aborigines, but firmly believe that they can do what our ancestors couldnt and unite as one community. The three churches are committed to assisting, encouraging and resourcing ministry and aid to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. These three religions also wish to bring racial discrimination and jailing in disproportionate numbers to an end and also want to provide equal opportunities and resources in education, health and (and) employment.

Besides the three big Christian religions there are also the other minorities such as the Jews.

The NSW Jewish board has made an official apology to the Aborigines of Australia. In the context of Jewish moral and religious teachings, they have committed themselves to the principles of reconciliation in all aspects of their lives. Therefore, the Jews are taking it upon themselves as a community to show empathy for the Aborigines as they themselves have experienced persecution and racism in the past. They believe that they can assist to reconcile the Aborigines by helping them receive the fullest recognition of their human rights. In addition, other groups that also believe in the need for reconciliation are the Lutherans and the Baptist Church. Buddhists and Hindu followers are also working to find ways to achieve higher living and health standards for Aborigines. All this proves and demonstrates that not just one religion but multiple are creating a foundation and advocating for reconciliation between the Indigenous and non-Indigenous communities in Australia.

Jane: Yes Sarah, groups that promote reconciliation in Australia do play an integral role as part of the healing and reconciling process in Australia, but if there are so many groups Churches in particular - that promote and advocate for reconciliation in Australia, why has it taken us this long to reach the stage we are at now, where we still have so much to do and so much further to go? What factors have, and often do, hinder a reconciliation process, especially in this context: reconciliation between Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal peoples? Sarah: Well Jane, peoples beliefs and attitudes about Indigenous people constitute the greatest barrier to reconciliation. Some of these beliefs are fuelled by the myths that all Indigenous people are lazy, violent and abusive alcoholics. White Australians feel anger towards the fact that too much taxpayer money is spent on the Indigenous people already and they receive special treatment. Other Australians are worried that the Native Title can take peoples properties away. These beliefs are entrenched in White Australians and while the majority of people have these attitudes there is no serious push by all Australians to seek

Reconciliation. In addition, one major serious issue that has not been addressed yet is that: after all these years that the Aborigines and White Australians have co-existed, we still do not have any written treaty or agreement between the non-Indigenous and Indigenous peoples of Australia.

Phoebe: Continuing from what you have said Sarah, how important then, are written apologies and agreements in establishing harmony and a way forward after a dispute?

Jane: Well Phoebe, written apologies and agreements are quite important in the reconciliation process with the Indigenous peoples of Australia. Past events such as the Mabo Land Title Rights and Kevin Rudds 2008 formal apology, have proven that public, legal and formal apologies and amendments to past mistakes play a crucial role in the healing and reconciliation process between non-Indigenous and Indigenous peoples of Australia.

In the past, the Australian Government have made many promises to our Indigenous people, but many of them have either been broken or not been fully realised or fulfilled to this day. A written agreement and apology would push the reconciliation process to a new level, as a written document would be a formal and legal binding document where both parties - the non-Indigenous and Indigenous population - would have to solemnly keep and fulfil their promises and obligations to each other, as well as reaping benefits from the agreement at the same time. These promises, obligations and benefits would allow both parties to work towards reconciliation and healing together, as well as enabling both sides to move on from the injustices that have occurred in the past, focusing on a push for future action - not just words.

Phoebe: So what exactly are some of the positive outcomes and benefits that our nation can expect from having written agreements and apologies, as part of our reconciliation process? Can you provide some specific examples Jane?

Jane: Well Phoebe, written agreements and apologies lead to many positive outcomes and consequences. Written agreements reconcile the interests of each party and drive each party to compromise and negotiate with each other in order to reach an agreement. In the instance of Australias reconciliation process, written documents would provide certainty over land ownership and resource rights between non-Indigenous and Indigenous peoples. This consequently would reduce possible future conflicts that may arise over these issues, as a written agreement would provide and act as a strong referral resource for resolution in disputes. Written agreements and apologies would, as well, create equality and stronger bonds of trust, respect, harmony and peace between Australias Indigenous and nonIndigenous peoples of today.

Sarah: But Jane, if written apologies and agreements are so important in the reconciliation process, why then has Australia yet to make a written agreement or treaty with its Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples? After all these years, why is this case?

Jane: Well Sarah, in saying that written documents are crucial in the reconciliation process in Australia, many Indigenous Australians are still intensely sceptical about the value of a treaty. They have seen many similar proposals come and go before, with no action, rectification or benefits. As well as being concerned that the desire for a treaty may have more to do with salvaging white peoples consciences rather than redressing ongoing wrongs, many Indigenous peoples also fear that any agreement may be subsequently dishonoured by later administrations. They suspect that time devoted to a written treaty or agreement may diminish time needed to actually focus on and rectify fundamental issues, such as land justice, health, economic well-being and other past wrongdoings which have carried onto problems today. These problems and years of unresolved issues have led to the massive socio-economic gap between Australias Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples of today.

However, these issues, though clearly evident in our current society, do not appear to be a forefront agenda or top priority in the Australian Government, nor (nor) do they seem to be publicised or brought to attention enough in the media.

Phoebe: So Jane, if this is the case in Australia, what has then happened in other countries in regards to the processes of reconciliation between their Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples?

Jane: Phoebe, many other countries - in fact most notably New Zealand and America - have already reconciled with their Indigenous peoples to the point where written treaties and agreements have been made, rectified and updated since as early as the 1700s.

New Zealands founding document, the Treaty of Waitangu, was an agreement entered into by the representatives of the Crown and of their Maori tribes and sub-tribes on the 6th of February 1840. The treaty is a broad statement of principles upon which British officials and Maori chiefs made a political covenant to found a nation state and build a government in New Zealand. The treaty has three articles: Maori cede the sovereignty of New Zealand to Britain; Maori give the Crown an exclusive right to buy lands which they wish to sell in return for a full guaranteed ownership of their land, forests, fisheries and other possessions; and Maori are given the same rights as British subjects.

Since then, the Maori peoples have been given several formal apologies for past wrongs, full rights to vote, a reserved number of seatings in parliament and a new education system where Maori children are taught in the Maori language. In 2008, another treaty settlement named Treelords was also entered into by New Zealands government and fellow Maori chiefs. This treaty saw the land of 170 000 hectares of prime forest land being returned from New Zealands Government to seven Maori tribes and sub-tribes. This land, located in central North New Zealand, is worth an estimate of 230 million NZ dollars.

Sarah: So Jane, you also mentioned America earlier on. Have they done a similar thing to New Zealand?

Jane: Well Sarah, the answer to that question is both yes and no. Americas founding document is not one like New Zealand, where their Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples entered into an agreement. However, to this day, they have made over 30 written treaties with their Native Indians, since the 1700s. These treaties have seen mining land returned to the Native Americans, rights to fishing, food and other pieces of land and resources, separate treaties for different tribes and specific dispute, and even treaties of peace and friendship.

Phoebe: So this just proves that Australia really needs a push in the development of their own reconciliation process with their Indigenous peoples. Sarah, near the start of this discussion, you stated that one of the main groups that promote reconciliation today is the Catholic Church. In regards to that, does the Catholic Church have an official (pos) position on reconciliation with Indigenous peoples, and if so, what is it?

Sarah: The Catholic Church has had quite the impact on the recognition of Aboriginal Australians. In 1986, Pope John Paul II made the rare visit to Alice Springs and he reaffirmed the Catholic Churchs commitment to reconciling and assisting the Aborigines in any way possible. Together, the Aborigines and Catholic Church formed NATSICC in 1991, which was established to help Catholic Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders to find a cultural identity.Technically, there is no official written contract that the Catholic Church is bound to follow, but a promise in any Christian religions is considered unjust if broken.

Phoebe: So am I right Sarah to say that the Catholic (Church) Churchs belief that broken promises are unjust, is based on what is in the Bible?

Sarah: Yes Phoebe youre absolutely correct regarding that question, but could you be more specific in terms of the beliefs you are asking about?

Phoebe: Of course. Let me change and rephrase my previous question: what are the Christian understandings of forgiveness and reconciliation that are based on the actions and teachings of Jesus? Jane: To answer that question for you Phoebe, there are countless scripture passages in the New Testament of the Bible that tell us about what Jesus teachings are in relation to

reconciliation and forgiveness. Reconciliation encompasses the ideas and areas of penance, confession of sin, prayer, forgiveness, love for your enemies and reconciliation as a ministry. These beliefs are based from the New Testament in the Bible, through the scriptures. In scripture passages such as Matthew 5: 38-48, Jesus preaches on forgiveness and love for your enemies, and the importance of not seeking revenge or retaliation. Scriptures state:

You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also a second mile. You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And even if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others?

In 2 Corinthians 5:18 and 20, scripture illustrates how Jesus forgave us for our sins and how He wants us to forgive the sins of others too, as part of how we have been called to the ministry of reconciliation. Scripture says: All is given from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making His appeal through us; we entreat you on His behalf of Christ, to be reconciled with God.

In James 5:16, scripture talks about the importance of confession of sin. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

In the book of John and the book of Ephesians, the Bible teaches us to forgive one and other. John 20:23 states: If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven then; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.

And in Ephesians 4:32 the Bible says: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christs sake hath forgiven you.

Sarah: Wow, there are lots of Bible verses that have shaped the belief systems of Christians, but how compatible are these Christian beliefs to the traditional beliefs of Aborigines?

Phoebe: To answer that question Sarah, I think that although both belief systems are quite different, they do feature a few prominent similarities.

Jane: What do you think is the most major difference?

Phoebe: That's a difficult question Jane. However, I think that there are two major differences; one of these being the focus of both belief systems. The Indigenous Australians have a spiritual connection with the place in which they live and most of their spirituality focuses on their devotion to the land. Christians instead focus on following the path of Jesus Christ.

Sarah: And what do you believe Phoebe, to be the second major difference?

Phoebe: I believe that the interpretations that represent the religion would be the other major difference. In Christian culture, the stories and beliefs are written in the bible for anyone to read. Yet the Indigenous express their traditions and stories through art, song and dance instead of the written word.

Jane: Perhaps Phoebe, this may be the reason why Christians and others find it more difficult to understand and relate to the true spirituality that Indigenous people experience and feel.Do you believe though that there are other major differences that we need to consider when comparing these belief systems?

Phoebe: I believe another thing to consider is how the systems depict death and the life after death. For example: too many Aboriginal communities, it is distressing and offensive to depict people who have died, yet at many Christian funerals there are photos of the deceased displayed. The Indigenous Australians also believe that once a person has died their spirit lives on and will be reborn in a different person. While Christians do believe that there is a life after earthly death, they do not believe in earthly reincarnation.

Sarah: Now Phoebe, although you have just presented some differences between the belief systems of Indigenous peoples and Christians, there are some similarities, yes?

Phoebe: Of course Sarah, some of the systems' values are quite similar. Respect for your family, elders and tribe, respecting life, sharing resources and not being selfish are all common values in the Aboriginal culture. Yet Christians also recognise and embrace these values. Both belief systems also have interpretations (of the) of the creation stories. Although they are quite different, they both have their own beliefs on how the world today was created.

Sarah: So leading on from that, to what extent must we now, as non-Indigenous peoples, adjust our traditional values and beliefs while seeking reconciliation with our Indigenous peoples?

Phoebe: Well Sarah, I think that to complete the reconciliation process between the Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples, Europeans need to acknowledge that as a result of British invasion and occupation, many Aboriginal people have and still do, suffer from dispossession from their lands. As well as this I believe that to complete the reconciliation process there are five crucial steps to follow to fully reunite as one nation.

Jane: What are those steps Phoebe?

Phoebe: Accepting and understanding shared history, respecting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures and heritage, recognising that the injustices of the past continue today in various different forms, identifying key changes within the society of Australia that are essential to give Aboriginal people justice and receiving and revaluing citizenship that ensures a peaceful future.

Sarah: Yes, those steps are certainly quite important and crucial Phoebe, but wide ranging and extremely difficult for some I am sure; however, do you think that these steps could lead to a more harmonious Australia?

Phoebe: I believe that they could, yes. However, I believe that we will never complete the reconciliation process if we don't work together as a nation to complete these tasks. I think that if we all try to come to some kind of an agreement, Australia could be a much more harmonious and peaceful country.

Jane: Thank you Phoebe for leaving us on that note. Unfortunately though, this concludes our discussion for today, as thats all the time we have left. Join us next week though for our next topic, and meanwhile, stay safe on the road and enjoy ABC. Youve just tuned in to Sarah, Jane and Phoebe.