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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 1 of 62 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 PRETRIAL CONFERENCE 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Proceedings recorded by electronic sound recording;

transcript produced by transcription service. TRANSCRIPTION SERVICE BY: JUDICIAL TRANSCRIBERS OF TEXAS, LLC 935 ELDRIDGE ROAD, #144 SUGAR LAND, TEXAS 77478 Tel: 281-277-5325 Fax: 281-277-0946 www.judicialtranscribers.com APPEARANCES: FOR PLAINTIFF/DEFENDANT: COURT RECORDER: COURT CLERK: SEE NEXT PAGE RISHONA SMITH SHEILA ASHABRANNER BEFORE THE HONORABLE NANCY F. ATLAS UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS HOUSTON DIVISION UNITED STATES OF AMERCIA VERSUS KOYODE LAWRENCE, ET AL CASE NO. 4:03-CR-436-1 HOUSTON, TEXAS TUESDAY, AUGUST 6, 2013 2:04 P.M. TO 3:08 P.M.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 2 of 62 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ALSO ATTENDING: 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 US MARSHALS OFFICE 515 RUSK, 10TH FLOOR HOUSTON, TEXAS 77002 713-718-4800 FOR THE DEFENDANT, KOYODE LAWRENCE: GREGORY CHARLES GLADDEN BIANCA MARTINEZ ATTORNEY AT LAW 3017 HOUSTON AVE. HOUSTON, TEXAS 77009 713-880-0333 FOR THE GOVERNMENT: STUART ALAN BURNS U.S. ATTORNEYS OFFICE 1000 LOUISIANA, STE. 2300 HOUSTON, TEXAS 77002 713-567-9580 APPEARANCES:

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 3 of 62 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this case. HOUSTON, TEXAS; TUESDAY, AUGUST 6, 2013; 2:04 P.M. THE COURT: Okay, do I have the parties on

United States versus Koyode Lawrence? THE CLERK: MR. BURNS: Yeah. Yes, Judge. Good afternoon.

Stuart Burns for the United States. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Good afternoon. Good morning, Judge.

Im Greg Gladden. THE COURT: Mr. Gladden.

And who do you have with you? MR. GLADDEN: Ms. Bianca Martinez. Shes a --

well, I dont know what you call her. last week. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Okay.

She just took the Bar

Shes waiting for her results. All right. And I --

Were working on that. -- see that Mr. Lawrence is here.

There -- this is an Initial Pretrial Conference in The case was filed and other Defendants were The case number is 03-436 and

prosecuted in 2003 and 04.

it was opened in November of 2003. Mr. Lawrence has been -- I dont know if you call it a fugitive, but he hasnt been -- he has not been taken

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 4 of 62 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 appointed. into custody here in the United States until very recently. I do know that there is a Motion to Dismiss based on speedy trial grounds. It was filed only recently so I need a

response from you, Mr. Burns. I did read it and I need to say that, Mr. Gladden, youve set out the test, but you only addressed two out of the four factors. You did -- you said it was an egregiously

long time and that there was prejudice that you felt was inherent in the delay, but theres no comment about the cause of the delay or really the reasons for or who was at fault, whos to blame for the delay. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: May I be heard, Your Honor? Yes. I was appointed on July 19th. I

received an email from the Magistrates Deputy Clerk on the 18th after 5:00 when I got back to the office asking if I was available and I responded I was available. out to see Mr. Lawrence that evening -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Uh-huh. -- of the 18th actually before I was And I went

And met him for the first time and learned for

the first time that he had been in custody at the request of the United States of America since March of 2004 in Nigerian prisons or jails. THE COURT: Uh-huh.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 5 of 62 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Office. been a -MR. GLADDEN: Pretrial Services. witnesses -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Public defender. -- Im sorry, Public Defenders -- there was an appointment of the MR. GLADDEN: At some point, he arrived here on, I After

believe, July 3rd, 2013, just this last month.

visiting with him, I was also advised by the Magistrate Court at the time they asked me if I was available, that there was a Scheduling Order in place with the Dispositive Motions due that Friday, the same day I was to be appointed, the next day in other words -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: (Pause.) THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: I think I can tell you. Judge -George Hanks. Yes. He had had -Oh well. -- so -What was the Magistrate Judge?

I dont know, how could there have

They represented one of the primary

They represented one of the primary witnesses in

the trial that was before you -THE COURT: Years ago.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 6 of 62 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: -- almost 10 years ago. Okay. So they had a conflict. They -- I

was appointed on that Friday.

Their office is closed on I did speak with

that Friday because of the sequestration.

the prosecuting attorney that was mentioned as being representing the State in this case that day, on that Friday. I told him I was going to be filing a Motion to

Dismiss on a speedy trial grounds and that Id like to have him consent to that because it seems like nine years and four months might be enough and we could resolve the case expeditiously that way, rather than trying to try something that happened 10 or 12 or more years ago. to it. The Scheduling Order had the Motion due that day on the 19th. I filed the Motion that day on the 19th. Okay. His response was due on the 24th. He did not agree

THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN:

He was, Im told, and that Friday he told me he was going to be out of town for a few days, so I suspect hes going to advise you that he was out of town beyond the 24th. still has not been a response filed. Now, my client was delivered here from Nigeria with the clothes he had on. He was not allowed to bring his There

legal documents involving 11 years of being over there

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 7 of 62 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 trying to get out. He didnt have his address book. He had

no recollection of telephone numbers or email addresses for his family, his lawyer. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: His family in Nigeria or here? In Nigeria. Hes never been in the He was brought here I have spent a

United States before this last month.

for the first time to address these charges.

lot of time in getting to know the ins and outs of social media this last month and have -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Time for everybody. And have -- as of this morning,

located the lawyer that has represented him in Nigeria since 2004. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Uh-huh. Also, as of this morning, spoke to

and -- his older sister in Nigeria who gave me the correct number for the lawyer that I have exchanged emails with and just in the last hour have received documents evidencing -evidence that would be material to the point -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: The Motion. -- that hed bring up. That being

apparently years of foot dragging and delays that -- and Im just reading the documents in your courtroom for the first time in the last few minutes. But the pleadings and the

scheduling and the delays that were all in the part of the

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 8 of 62 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Government over the last many years, I think will speak to that point and Id like to move to amend my Motion to Dismiss with some of this evidence. Frankly, it appears from what Ive seen so far and Ive asked the Government and I wrote them a letter last week asking them to get me all documents, emails, pleadings, text messages, document, you know, relative to his detention in Nigeria, what caused it, what kept him there, what didnt get him back here in something less than nine years and four months. And Ive not received a response to that. Ive not received a response to my Motion so Im feeling a little bit ambushed but I would like leave to modify my Motion. I think its probably the biggest quantum

contention that Ive also read the transcript of the fiveday long trial you had in 2004 and I supplied that to my client. I have seen one of five large binders that the

Government has of DEA reports and FBI reports related to the case. Ive not spent any time looking at those because

of -- and the last few months having been a witness to the prosecution in the -- of the District Attorney in Brownsville that was being -- is prosecuted and the Judge and the various lawyers and actually I was scheduled to be a witness for the United States tomorrow in Corpus Christi on another one of those Defendants. Ive been so disappointed in the FBI reports of my

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 9 of 62 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 yet. THE COURT: I know but the responses are due or a interviews and Im not a target, Im a Government witness but, to paraphrase in the words of a Texas, those FBI reports dont seem to be worth a warm bucket of -- and he said, piss, but I think they changed it to spit for the press. Therere about 80 percent wrong. Ive not -- Ive

struggled with that for my clients and their alleged confessions for years but when its my statements that theyre flipping 150 degrees for their own benefit even though Im their witness, Ive decided Id rather be reading a transcript than five big binders of their reports that I dont put much credit in. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: I see. And with -Okay. So the bottom line from your

perspective is that you want some discovery and time to file an amended motion and/or fresh motion. MR. GLADDEN: Well, I havent filed a response

way with this just to -MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: due July 24th. THE COURT: Thats not my Scheduling Order. There was the --- usually its 10 days, not a week. Well, your Scheduling Order had it

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 10 of 62 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Okay. So I -Thats what I was talking --- Id never make the Government or

anybody else respond in five days to a motion of this nature. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Okay. So I appreciate your point and I dont

know Judge Haynes put it down that way, but anyway, it is what it is, but nobody who practices before me thinks that thats real so I might as well just enlighten you that -MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: I --- the Magistrate Judges Order is

never pointed anything on me and so Ill give you whatever you want in the way of an extension of time. problem. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Okay. But Mr. Burns needs to have the formal Thats not a

motion before he -- and a full motion and the fact that I need a full motion before Im going to rule. So the way Im interpreting all that youve said is that you want some discovery. You need to get documents

from Nigeria from your -- from the Defendants family and on this -- in order to even make this motion and that you want to re-file something that is more fulsome and persuasive.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 11 of 62 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Burns, whats the story on the discovery? MR. BURNS: Theres no problem with discovery.

Just to make it clear, hes written -- theres not been a formal request for discovery. What he asked for is what I He

would consider work product relating to the extradition. wants emails that might have been exchanged between the

existing attorney and the case agent which I would say would be -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: The existing attorney meaning you? No, I -- and here, this is Peter Mason

and James Alstons case and I recently just inherited within the last probably 30 days, so Im just going to go to press, but Counsels asked for stuff that I dont think is discoverable. I have no problem complying with Rule 16,

Brady, Giglio, all that relating to discovery and I told him so. I invited him over to my office and I -- that -THE COURT: Right. But thats the merits. I

think the issue thats being raised at the moment, I mean, the merits are also important, of course, but whats being raised is the issue of why Mr. Lawrence was not extradited far sooner. Frankly, Im interested in that too because

based on what I heard from the trial and Mr. Gladdens going to read the transcript -- Mr. Lawrence is accused of having been the mastermind if I recall correctly. MR. BURNS: Thats correct. And --

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 12 of 62 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: MR. BURNS: And has been for a while. Thats correct. And from the little I

know, Judge, a probation arrest and Im in the process of obtaining these documents. relating to this. THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Oh. But from what I understand, a I dont have a single document

provisional arrest warrant was sent to Nigeria and he was arrested four months later and if he wouldnt have contested -- it was his contesting of the extradition that led to the delay, you know, we sometimes -- we cant control what other jurisdictions do and the way they handle their extradition but it was based upon his accusations that he couldnt get a fair trial in the United States that led to the lengthy delay in the extradition. And the final judgment of the

Judge in Nigeria states that those were the grounds that he denied his Motion upon. THE COURT: Now, why it took --

Well -- but how do we happen to get

moved or extradited now? MR. BURNS: We cant -- the United States cant do

anything until the extraditions judgment takes effect and it wont take effect until its appeals are exhausted and so they go through a process fighting the extradition and appealing any rulings. Again, I dont know exactly what

happened in these circumstance, but I do know that within

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 13 of 62 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 are -THE COURT: Oh, the -six months of the Indictment, he was arresting in Nigeria. And had he not fought the extradition, would have been sent over fairly immediately to address his charges here. THE COURT: So your position is based on what you

know -- limited amount you know now is that the delay was attributable to his fighting extradition going through the court system and trying to -- then appeal. MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Yes, Judge. What do you have to say? According to the Affidavits that

MR. GLADDEN: -- part of the pleadings in Nigeria that I have received copies -- of certified copies of this morning or this afternoon actually. There was an attempted

abduction in late 2003 that was foiled of my client where the persons claimed he was doing it at the behest of the United States and that there was a warrant issued for him over here. That didnt work out. The person got away I dont remember if he was

before he was actually abducted.

actually arrested and had to face charges for that illegal behavior. He was arrested pursuant to the United States Request in March of 2004. He did contest that, but then

there was a series of years and years of the Government at

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 14 of 62 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 someones behest not showing up and leaving him parked in prison without a day in court. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Uh-huh. And it was apparently numerous, over

and over and over delay tactics on the part of the Government over there. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Nigeria Government? MR. GLADDEN: Thats why the Brady material Ive I -Government being -The Government --- the United States Government or the

asked for about all the communications; why was the Nigerian Government housing him, feeding him and holding him at our behest and refusing to come to court for years and years and years. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: that thats possible. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: after all those years. I see. I believe that they -Maybe they wanted to be paid off. -- I believe that -- I dont know I dont know -I have no idea --- who had anything to pay --- but it -- I dont either. -- while he was in jail, but -But according to the records I

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 15 of 62 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 received this morning, it was -- you couldnt get the Government attorneys to come -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: MR. GLADDEN: MR. GLADDEN: He was --- enjoin -- join the fray, no. -- he -No, no, the people that were holding

him at the United States -- the agents of the United States that were holding him in custody at our request -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: referring to? MR. GLADDEN: The Attorney Generals Office of Oh, agents. -- would not come to court. Who are the agents that youre

Nigeria that had picked him up at the United States -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Oh, so youre saying --- request. -- oh, okay, yeah, youre saying that

the agents of the United States Government are the -MR. GLADDEN: I think the things Im asking for is

the communications that would answer your question -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: extradition matter? Okay. Fine.

-- why was the Attorney General -Youre entitled to it. -- not going forward on the

And, in fact, he has now been

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 16 of 62 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 him. extradited or sent to this country while this appeal was pending -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: appeal to be over. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Okay. Well find some -Uh-huh. -- at the objection of his lawyers. Oh. So there wasnt waiting for some

And Im curious why hes here now

but what the state of the evidence is such that they -theyre ready to go forward now at this late date -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Right. -- 9-1/2 years after they charged

I dont think theres been any diligence and part of

the pleadings and part of the complaints -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Mr. Gladden? -- are -Im really interested in this but Im

not ruling today and -MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: going to rule today. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: understand that. I understand. I dont -I hope you I understand. -- youre arguing as if you think Im

I cant rule today.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 17 of 62 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Motion. THE COURT: Okay. Okay. Great. 26th? MR. GLADDEN: I understand and I dont want you to

rule on the state of my Motion because I just got this evidence today but I dont want a long delay. The

Scheduling Order that the Magistrate gave me has it set for trial later this month on the 26th. THE COURT: Do you want to go to trial on the I thought you really were

I thought you didnt.

focused on the speedy trial issue. MR. GLADDEN: I, having read the transcript, I

think our strongest defense right now is the fact that we dont have a defense because of the delay and the change -the train has left the station on his ability to get a speedy trial and thats a fair trial so I would like a very short delay with my clients permission to get my Motion to you in order, a response from that and then some hearing where we can present evidence. I believe once my Motion is

amended with the documents I just received. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Where did you get these documents? I -- from his lawyers office -Oh. -- in Nigeria. Are you going to share them? Ive going to attach them to my

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 18 of 62 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. BURNS: I merely -- Judge, if I may, I merely

offered in this very simply discovery that I also be entitled to at least receive copies of the documents that he received from -MR. GLADDEN: Im going to attach them to my

Motion and hes going to be -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: like to get more. All of them? -- served with them. Okay. Everything Ive got so far and Id Yes, maam.

And Id like to once he sees them, Id

like to have some notice as to whether hes going to challenge -- they appear to be certified copies, copies of certified copies with court stamps and all that kind of stuff. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Okay. Id like -Great. -- Id like to save a trip to

Nigeria to get originals. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Yeah, I totally agree with you there. And Ive already talked to him about

going to Nigeria and hes not interested in going over there to do any discovery so. THE COURT: Okay. Okay. Well, Im trying to be

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 19 of 62 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 necessary. MR. GLADDEN: Thats not what I heard him say. I accommodating to your request, Im just getting mixed signals here so Im trying to figure out exactly what it is youre asking for. discovery. You -- on the one hand you want

On the other hand you have some documents and

you want to push forward and you want them to be in quick order. On the third hand, we -- Mr. Burns is saying I can give you everything Ive got on the trial but I dont have much yet on how the extradition went and hes -Mr. Burns as I understand it, is trying to gather that stuff so he can make it available to you which I -MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Okay. -- wholeheartedly believe is

heard him say it was a work product and he was not going to make it available. THE COURT: No, he said that what he has so far is

work product and wasnt making that, but he said it was communications between lawyers is what I heard. MR. BURNS: What I said, Judge -- what he was

asking for -- part of -- most of what he was asking for was emails that would take place between the existing attorney and the agent that might be writing the Affidavit saying, Oh, you might need to put this in here or there might be

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 20 of 62 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 additional information that you need or communication from the Office of International Affairs where from here, where the lawyers are saying, What exactly do you mean in my extradition package? I dont even know if those emails

exist, but thats generally -- theres -- the nature of the communications and once we send the extradition package up, we usually have no contacts with OIA. thats been -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: Well, you know --- the case. -- but OIAs part of the Federal Ill find out if

Government so their communications are relevant in terms of discovery. MR. BURNS: I dont know if I said discovery, I

certainly -- I mean, Judge rule, however you rule but -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Right. -- I certainly -- if its internal

communication that relates to an investigation that might still be ongoing or might somehow compromise some information, Id at least ask the Court allow me to submit it in-camera before we turn over anything I have. THE COURT: Well, yeah, sure, but, Jesus, so when

are they going to get the documents -MR. BURNS: THE COURT: You know, I --- from OIA or State or whatever it

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 21 of 62 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here. is? MR. BURNS: Im not even sure what we have. Ive

asked for everything they have. THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: And who have you asked? Ive asked the paralegal that -Right. -- her name -Paralegal where? -- paralegal at the office -- a And the

paralegal at the Office of International Affairs.

only reason I came in contact with her because she sent an email actually this morning asking for the Judgment -asking for the Judgment that I received when I first got this case from the Court actually. THE COURT: MR. BURNS: What judgment are you talking about? The Judgment out of Nigeria stating

that the extradition was denied. THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: I dont -MR. BURNS: When I and Counsel who was appointed This is documents Thats Extradition, see -- I -- okay. So --- coming into the middle of the movie Im --

in the case received the same document.

we received -- weve made its initial appearance.

the same day that I was told and actually appeared and I got

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 22 of 62 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a package from the Court that had -- you know, they generally have the arrest warrant, the Indictment that lets the Defense know exactly what hes charged with and thats the only document -- that and the Judgment which was a long, maybe 25-30 page document from the -- from Nigeria. Those

are the only documents I had related to this case and so thats the Judgment I guess that they used as a basis to finally extradite him here saying his contesting of his extradition that was finally denied -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: And when was that? -- and therefore he should -Roughly what year? I want to say this year. Okay. Yes. Something like that. I believe it was 2103. Im not 2013 or 12?

absolutely sure on that. THE COURT: I see. Okay.

And -- well, what about Mr. Alston and Mr. whoever it is that had this case before? MR. BURNS: attorney now. THE COURT: Well, I know but he didnt take his Well, you know Alston is a defense

files with him, those are Government files.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 23 of 62 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 You dont think he left the files on his case with the office? MR. BURNS: Oh, I have -- those files I have. I

havent found anything related to extradition. THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Oh. Thats -- I -- when I talk about

discovery, thats the files Im referring to that are discoverable -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Okay. -- and related to the investigation.

But there -- I couldnt find an extradition package so I called the woman I spoke with today and asked her to send me the actual extradition package and anything else related to the case. THE COURT: I see. Okay. So how about we get

together in two more weeks and at that point I need Mr. Alston here or some sort of a report from you about what hes given you and we need the OIG or whatever, the OIA or whatever the organization is that the Federal Government has that works on extradition. on this. They have to have a whole file

I mean, my recollection is that it was represented

to me when I sentenced some of these other people that the Government was working getting Mr. Lawrence over here. I

mean, I dont think the individual standing in front of me were working on it but they understood that that was what

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 24 of 62 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was happening and that he was fighting extradition. was just sort of informal -MR. BURNS: THE COURT: Right. -- comment when I would ask at the end This

of the sentencing or -MR. BURNS: But Im pretty sure that our role in

that, Judge, is when the Office of International Affairs simply sends a bunch of certified documents to the Embassy that is subsequently given to the proper authorities and we pay, I believe, absolutely nothing -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: We being? United States -- the United States. Oh. As if somebody -- you know, when we

extradite somebody from this country, the foreign Government doesnt play a role in our process. We go through our

process here in subsequently extraditing -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Right. -- same as there. You know,

certainly, if thats not the case, I need -THE COURT: Well, yeah, and it doesnt sound like

you know much about it yet so I dont want to put you on the spot and I know Mr. Gladden seems to be in a rush, I understand that so we need, in two weeks, to get a full status report and, frankly, Id like -- you need to make a

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 25 of 62 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 chronology of what happened as best you can put it together, okay? Im asking you to do that so that we all know whats

going -- and the Office of International Affairs has to turn over its entire file to you and then you can tell me and tell Mr. Gladden what it is that you think is privilege and redact the privilege stuff. You have to do a privilege log

and then you turn over everything else thats not privilege, the packet and all that. I mean, Im not interested in the

communications that are classically work product but I am interested -- or attorney-client privilege, but I am interested in knowing what youre not turning over in a privilege log and I am interested in knowing what the timeline was and, frankly, what documents were sent over -prepared and sent as part of the process of getting the extradition. And we need -- well, we will need somebody from whatever the office is that was dealing with Nigeria to explain to us and to document the file because thats not privileged. Give us the documents from that file. I would just ask, Judge, that we dont

MR. BURNS:

-- certainly this deserves proper attention -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Right. -- but, you know, its possible for us

to sort of get too bogged down because, I mean, as a matter of fact, the Government would have no interest in delaying

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 26 of 62 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 his extradition. THE COURT: I -- that may be, but I -- youre

representation of that is not insufficient. MR. BURNS: But the point -- no, my point is: the

only thing thats really relevant, I believe, are the dates, the dates that are -THE COURT: establish those dates. MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Exactly. Yeah. And once we find those dates, I mean, The dates in the documents that

I think the case law will walk us through everything else. THE COURT: Maybe, but were entitled to know what

the Government did to get Mr. Lawrence here, okay? MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: MR. GLADDEN: getting here. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Or didnt do, yes. And for the Government to suggest I understand. And -Sure. And what they did to keep him from

that the United States has no interest or role or any authority over foreign Governments holding people in prison for us is not -THE COURT: Is this the first international case

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 27 of 62 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 youve ever had? MR. GLADDEN: Does not comport -- no, maam, it

does not comport with the published news reports of us having people held in prison by other Government at our behest -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: is and thats fine. do you hear me? MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Yes. Im not interested in the views -I understand. -- whether the CIA or some other Okay. -- all over the country -Okay. Great.

-- all over the world. Youre entitled to whatever your view

Im just going to litigate this case;

defense department is -- God knows what other agency is doing something along the lines youre describing, okay? can watch 24 just like you can watch 24. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Yes. So the point is: Im not interested. I

What I am interested in is this case. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Yes. okay? And I know what was represented

to me eight -- ten whatever number of years ago it was which

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 28 of 62 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is: Mr. Lawrence was hotly contesting his extradition. Now,

maybe that accounts for a couple of years, but not all of them splaying right into your argument or maybe there was something else that went on, but Ive just finished telling Mr. Burns that he has to give me the documents relating to the efforts the United States made to get Mr. Lawrence here, okay? MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Yes, maam. Now, if you have some other source of

documents that you think is appropriate for us to get, then you may make whatever requests of Mr. Burns you want or requests of me and Ill deal with those specifics when I get them, okay? Im very interested. I dont know what it is

that you think may have happened in this case and so you have access to lots of information that Mr. Burns doesnt seem to have so youll have your opportunity to present that too, okay? MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: Yes. Im very interested. Yes. So -Yes, maam. -- I would like a report in two weeks. Before we set that certain date -Okay.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 29 of 62 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 weeks is? weeks? THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Must be a child -- yes, we can. No. Is it a child prodigy or what? Youd be surprised, Judge, I think Im but -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Uh-huh. You have -MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: -- I have a personal conflict with it. Oh, okay. Maam, Im taking my kid to college,

-- I could make it three --- a kid that could go to college? -- but could we do it -- make it three

the oldest one in the courtroom right now. THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: Wrong, that is so wrong. If thats okay. When -- well, what do you think two

Lets see -MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Its the week of the 20th in there. The 20th is the same. I think if we did in the afternoon

of the 27th works for me, Judge. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Okee dokee. And I take it thats just to get our

heads all together and see where we are.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 30 of 62 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: to be in trial. You want to do it at 3:30? MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: Im -- sure, Your Honor. On the 27th? Okay. All right. And secondly -And I do want, Mr. Gladden, for you to See where we are, right. Okay. Yeah, Im going to be here, Im going

turn over what youve got. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Uh-huh. I dont consider this privileged in If theres some privilege --

the way youre describing it. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Okay.

-- material you think you want to

withhold, you can do a privilege log also, okay? MR. GLADDEN: It appears from the court documents

from Nigeria, theres certified copies and I was going to just -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: them a copy. THE COURT: -- well, youre welcome to go ahead So --- attach them to my Motion and give

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 31 of 62 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and make it -- Im going to just deny your Motion without prejudice so you can make a fresh motion that actually covers the waterfront, that is, the current motion. But --

and I understand and appreciate that you did it in a rush so you would preserve your right and it was interesting, but the whole point is that Id like a fresh motion with meaningful documentation cited and attached so we have it all in one place. I am prepared to give you a date if want it, but I was thinking that we would get together in three weeks. will have more information. Mr. Burns will have his You

chronology and his documents and you will get them and hopefully in advance of the meeting. And you will do the

same in exchange and then well make an informed schedule; would that make sense? MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: It makes sense to me. Okay. Because --

It --- with all due respect to

Mr. Lawrence, you have a motion pending and Im going to say that because this issue as youve said on more than one occasion here, that the speedy trial issue is your -- is a very strong issue for you and so Im going to just ask that you find out if your client wants to waive the Speedy Trial Act and if you are asking me to count this period while we

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 32 of 62 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we count. MR. GLADDEN: -- okay. From the day we file that tell you. sort out the speedy trial issue as excludable delay, otherwise, Im just going to have to put you to trial and I dont think you want that. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Right. Its okay with me to wait. I should

I just think if were going to do the speedy

trial motion then we need to do it and do it right. MR. GLADDEN: I think we would not object to

agreeing that from this day to -THE COURT: No, from the date you filed your

Motion, I assume, you mean. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: -- from -The original Motion, no? Well -That would be the typical time where

Motion until that is resolves, we will not be contesting that delay -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: getting a speedy trial. THE COURT: Right, and thats without prejudice to Sure. -- contributing to his denial of

your arguments regarding the period from 2003 through to the date you filed your Motion. Thats without prejudice to

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 33 of 62 33 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 true. MR. BURNS: Yes. And just as a future reference, that and your argument you might make at that time. MR. BURNS: May I also point out, Judge, that the

case has been certified as complex by this Court which -THE COURT: You mean, from the -- previously,

when we start talk about setting a trial date, you know, there are volumes of documents that need to be explored, both from Mr. Gladdens perspective as well as mine. And

while, you know, I understand Mr. Gladden is about to hurry up things, I believe that he -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: THE COURT: He would want to see --- would most respectively --- this discovery. Yes. He would want to see it Im sure. Yes. Okay. Well, fine, so youre going to

turn that stuff over, this -- the merits-type documents. Youre -- are you making that all available? MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Yes. Is it scanned? Well, no, it -- in the action, we

dont turn over reports. THE COURT: Right, you have them come read them.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 34 of 62 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A-R-A-N -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: What is it? A-R -Deronzio? appeals. MR. BURNS: MR. GLADDEN: Its just kind of hard. There was an appeal and Ive got the I do not have were any. MR. BURNS: If there was a trial notebook, he has. MR. BURNS: THE COURT: He already has trial transcript. And the exhibits to the extent there MR. BURNS: Yes, but that -- theyve been put in

binders and easily accessible so. THE COURT: And the trial transcript he already

certainly -- Im certain well let him look at the exhibits and certainly have copies of anything that would be relevant. THE COURT: Well, appeal, Im sure there were

trial transcript from the appellate lawyer.

the exhibits but they should be somewhere available. THE COURT: Well, I would think that -- whats the

name of one of the Defendants that went to trial? Can you figure that out? MR. GLADDEN: Yes, Your Honor. Aransiola,

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 35 of 62 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 somewhere. trial. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: No, Aransiola, A-R-A-N-S-I-O-L-A. Adeniji. Just a minute.

There was also a Kassim,

K-A-S-S-I-M, first name -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Kassim. -- T-A-I-Y-E. Yeah, Ive read that, thank you, I tried this case in June 2004

Kassim, Aransiola, okay.

with Alston, Mason and Kuniansky and Catherine ODaniel and Edmond OSugi. I tried it for the Defense. And --

MR. GLADDEN: transcripts. THE COURT:

I can feel your pain having read the

I know.

So anyway, it was a five-day

The point is that there are tons of exhibits in that

trial and I marked them for identification and for admission, of course, so -MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: All of them --- I am sure they are available

I would think they were in the Appellate Record You need

but its possible the Government maintained them. to appeal although I don't know. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: My research -I just dont know.

-- my research has identified most

of the witnesses in that case are swallowers, mules that

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 36 of 62 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know. THE COURT: Yes, a lot of them were Nigerians so testify. MR. GLADDEN: And they were all sentenced to swallowed stuff -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Right. -- and came from Nigeria. And al lot of them pled guilty and

anything from time served to 3-1/2 years to five years and theyre all out. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Okay. And may be back in Nigeria. I dont

they probably did get deported, youre right. MR. GLADDEN: Well, actually, most of them had

dual citizenship but they had never really lived here except to -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Oh, okay. -- smuggle heroin in. Oh. They had been born here but left the

country in infancy and because they had the passports -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Oh, right, thats right. -- they were able to get in a little

easier than non-citizens. THE COURT: I see. That means no.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 37 of 62 37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here. MR. GLADDEN: So I dont know that theyd still be

Most of them -- all their family and their roots were

in Nigeria or Ghana so -THE COURT: Okay. Well, Ill give you the names

of the lawyers, the Defense attorneys: Catherine ODaniel and OSugi. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Ive got the transcript. You have it all. Yeah. Okay. Well, anyway, turn over the If you have any problems,

discovery, Mr. Burns, dig it up.

let me know, Im happy to make -- issue orders if they have to be brought back from storage. I do think the exhibits And

are important so we have to figure out where they are. Ill make the following speedy trial findings:

First of all, this is a complex case on the merits and I find that the Defendants interest in developing -well, in Counsels interest in gaining knowledge of the facts and developing a legal strategy outweighs the Defendants and the publics interest in a speedy trial. The case does involve volumes of documents and I think that the fact that the case is so old, does make the reconstruction of the file a little more difficult than usual. I would like to make sure that the Defendant

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 38 of 62 38 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 something. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: happening here? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. Yes, maam. Do you speak English? Yes, maam. Okay. Yes, maam. Are you understanding whats himself is agreeable to the speedy trial delay from the time of the filing of the Motion, which in this case was, I believe, July 9th. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: July 19th, Your Honor, I believe. 19th through the time that I decide

the speedy trial motion is excludable delay under the Speedy Trial Act. Mr. Lawrence, are you following all this? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: MR. GLADDEN: language barrier. (No verbal response.)

There may be a little bit of a

Hes not -Now you tell me? No, Im not -- well, he speaks

THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: English, okay. THE COURT:

Mr. Lawrence, let me ask you

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

What other languages do you speak? My language, Yoruba.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

What is it?

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 39 of 62 39 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 writing? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. English. And when you speak to your prison? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. At times I write it for them. And what language are you DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yoruba? Yeah. Yoruba?

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

And when you were talking to your

lawyer, what language are you speaking? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. English. When you did -- do business or

dealings with the prison, were you speaking English or Yoruba? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: They dont understand me.

So who -- what do you speak at the

lawyer what do you say -- what language are you speaking? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: He talks slowly to me.

He talks slowly to you? Yes, sir.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

In what language? English. Okay.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: English?

Do you think you need an interpreter in this case?

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 40 of 62 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: MR. GLADDEN: Yes, maam. Ive had

It would help me, Judge.

to have him write some sentences because I couldnt understand him. Now, he speaks English as you see, but its

very difficult for me to understand his English sometimes. THE COURT: accent, I think. But are you under -- and were going to have to get an interpreter. I mean, I feel like we need to redo Uh-huh. Okay. Well, that has to his

this whole conference. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Im sorry I didnt mention that. Yeah. So heres what well do: we Mr. --

will redo this entire conference in three weeks. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Lawrence.

-- Lawrence, do you understand that

your lawyer is asking me to dismiss this case against you because he says that the Government of the United States took too long to bring you over to here to the United States from Nigeria; do you understand that? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes, maam.

Yes or no? Yes, maam.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

And do you understand what Im saying? Yes, maam.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

Have you understood what I was saying

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 41 of 62 41 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 before? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. Yes, maam. Do you understand that the

Government is supposed to be giving information papers about the efforts the United States Government made to bring you to the United States? The Governments supposed to find

those papers and give them to your lawyer. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes, maam.

Do you understand that? Yes, maam.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

I need you to answer all these

questions out loud, okay? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: can hear him. Okay. Yes, maam.

No, all he has to do is speak. Right. He just cant nod his head. Hes -- I

So, Mr. Lawrence? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Uh-huh.

Is lawyer -- your lawyer has received Yes?

some papers from Nigeria; do you understand that? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: them, ma'am. THE COURT:

Im just -- I'm just getting

Youre hearing -- because you are

hearing what he was telling me?

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 42 of 62 42 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here. lawyer. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes? Yes, maam. So I asked the Government Yes.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

lawyer to get more papers from Washington D.C. or from wherever he can get them about what efforts the Government of the United States made to get you here or made to keep you in Nigeria as your lawyer would put it. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes, maam.

And Im also asking your lawyer to

gather what papers he can get from you and your family and your friends and your lawyer in Nigeria or any other place -DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

-- and then your lawyer will turn

those papers over as appropriate -DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Oh.

-- to Mr. Burns, the Government

And your lawyer has made a motion, a

request to me to have -- to dismiss this case against you -DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

-- because of the delay in your coming

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 43 of 62 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes, maam.

I have told your lawyer I am not

granting that motion right now -DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes, maam.

-- because it is incomplete, but I am

giving him an opportunity to gather more paper and information and make a new motion for me to consider. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

A motion will be more complete and a

motion that then the Government will respond to and then I can decide what to do. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

I have to decide whether or not the

case is so old that it should be dismissed. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

I have to decide whether what you did

or the United States did when you were in Nigeria caused the delay of 9-1/2 years. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

Since the case was brought here in the

United States, from then until now. Okay. I have to decide whether the case should be

dismissed because of what you did or the United States did. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay? Okay.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 44 of 62 44 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 delay. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay, maam.

I cant decide that right away. Okay. I

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: have nothing.

I dont have enough information.

This is it so your lawyers gathering paper.

The Government lawyers gathering papers and I need to give them time to do that because of the distances and the time passage. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: with you -DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. Okay.

So I would like to know if its okay

-- that we delay some more trying this

case so that your lawyer and the Government lawyer can give me the papers for me to decide whether to dismiss the case without a trial. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

Now, ultimately thought, its more

Its going to take a month or two months -DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

-- at least for me to get the papers,

get the motion, get the response and then for me to read it all and decide. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay, maam.

Is that okay that we delay for two

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 45 of 62 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to him? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: No? No, maam. CJA, right? He did --DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. months at least? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

It could be three months, could be

a -- I just dont know until the lawyers come back and tell me. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay, maam.

Is that okay? Okay, maam. And then if I dismiss the

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

All right.

case because its been too old -- too long and too old then case over. I guess youll go back to Nigeria. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay, maam.

If you -- if I do not dismiss the case

-- then you have to stand trial

meaning Government calls witnesses, you have a free lawyer. Are you paying anything for Mr. Gladden, any money

Okay.

Thats right. -- the Affidavit? Thats right. First CJA case since

I agreed to be on that list.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 46 of 62 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 dropped. THE COURT: (Laughs,) okay. So if I do not

dismiss the case -- do you know what the word dismiss means? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: (No verbal response.)

Knock the case out, require it to be

If I do not dismiss, then the case will go forward

and we will have a trial with witnesses and papers in front of a jury if you want all that. Okay? If you want it. If

you dont want it, your lawyer and you can decide that. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

Thats not for today. Okay. So are you agreeable -- I

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

All right.

mean, you have the right to make the Government bring this case to trial within a month or two -- two months. that right. You have

You could push it to trial if you prefer.

Do you understand what Im saying? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: (No audible response.)

So you and your lawyer need to talk

about whether you want to go for a trial right now, soon, in the next two months or let me decide about this delay and decide whether the case has to be dismissed. DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: All right.

Tell me what I just -- tell me -- can

you explain back to me what your choices are?

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 47 of 62 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 now is: DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: That I -- the Court is going

to take more time because of the time and for myself and from -THE COURT: Government. -- So Im --

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

In order to decide --- and to decide.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: -- what?

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

So Id already --

-- to decide whether or not the case

has been pending too long? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes.

Would you rather I do that? Yes, sir.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: go to trial? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: THE COURT:

Or would you rather I go -- make them

Yes, maam. You can talk to him.

Which one? May I -Yes.

May I, Your Honor? You can talk to him privately. I think what we need to decide right

If we delay it, were asking for the delay so we We can still

cant complain about these next two months.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 48 of 62 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 complain about 9-1/2 years of delay but we cannot complain about the delay between -- in the next two or three months, okay? You need to waive any complaint about that. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Yeah, but -Were asking for that delay. Okay. So we can see if we can win We dont want a jury We want to try

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: MR. GLADDEN: Okay?

this case on our Motion to Dismiss.

trial in three or four or five or six weeks.

to get the case dismissed if we can but we need more information so were not going to complain about this little delay later; do you understand? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay. Yes, maam. I understand.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

So, all right, then I think the

Defendant does understand and the next time well have an interpreter here and well go through it all again. Sheila, will you put that in the minutes? THE CLERK: THE COURT: I did. But I think the Defendant does

understand that he has the choice about going to trial on the merits right away or delaying for a few months to see if the case can be dismissed just because its been so long that hes been in a Nigerian jail.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 49 of 62 49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes.

You understand thats the choice? Yes, maam.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

Would you rather have a little more

delay so we can sort out whether to dismiss the case? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes? Yes, maam.

And postpone the trial -Yes, maam.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

-- a few more months down the road? Yes, maam. If we do the Motion to Dismiss

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Okay.

and the delay process -DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yes, maam.

-- short delay process, then your

trial will be postponed till probably January if you want a trial; do you understand? DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: I do.

And I dont dismiss the case. Right. Okay. I think the Defendant has the

fundamentals of this -- on this and youve talked to him about it I take it. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Yes, Your Honor. Okay. Then Im deeming that the

Defendant has waived his speedy trial rights and Im going

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 50 of 62 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 old one. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Yes, Your Honor. But that way I think its a little to give you a waiver paper and you can talk to him privately about it and if he elects to sign it Id like that back today. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Okay. If he chooses not to sign it, Id like

you to make a record on that. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: to file your Motion. the time being. I just had a quick question, Judge. And then youll decide when you want Im just going to leave it at that for

But, again, I guess in the interest of

justice and Speedy Trial Act, Ill leave your current Motion pending. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: All right. I said I was denying it without Im going to leave it

prejudice but I reversed that.

pending and then you will file an amended motion. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: That makes sense to me, Judge. Which completely will supersede the

simpler for administrative purposes. And, Sheila, will you talk to the interpreters about the type of interpreter we need? THE CLERK: I will get them to you.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 51 of 62 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: THE CLERK: THE COURT: Huh? I have them. Yeah. How do you spell the language? Y.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Yoruba.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: Y --

Y --

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: -- O --

-- O --

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: -- R --

-- R --

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: -- U --

-- U --

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: B-E?

B-A.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

B-A, Ba.

Y-U -- okay, B-A. Yes. Y --

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

You got it?

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE CLERK: O.

Y-O --

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE CLERK: -- R --

-- R --

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE CLERK: -- U --

-- U --

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 52 of 62 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE CLERK: -- B-A.

-- B, okay. B-A, yes.

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE CLERK: A?

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT:

Yes.

And can you show him this to make sure Here hold it up, Sheila, for

we got it spelled correctly? Mr. Lawrence to see. (Voices off the Record.) MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT:

Y-O-R-U-B-A. Okay. Fine. Okay, once we -- you

should go down, Mr. Gladden, and talk to the interpreters and see what theyve got because I would not mind if you come over early the next time and meet your client with that interpreter present or figure out if they have someone you can fire that CJA would pay for -MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Uh-huh. -- so that you can have some

conferences with your client in Yoruba, its said, okay? MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Yes, Your Honor. And that way we can have -- assure Im concerned that this process of

that hes understanding.

a jury trial and some of what were doing is not the same in Nigeria. I dont know that they have these rights there, in Im not trying to

fact, I have a distinct sense they dont.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 53 of 62 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 happens -THE COURT: Is that true? Yes, maam. cast dispersions, Im just thinking theres some cultural differences and, therefore, it would pay for us to have the translation in his native language sometimes for the essence for what you guys are talking about just as a double check on the English. MR. GLADDEN: I have made an extra copy of the

thousand pages of transcripts from that trial and made them available to him and he has read them Im told so he has some sense of what a trials like -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Oh, good. -- and what its about and what

DEFENDANT LAWRENCE: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: on top of that. THE COURT: Okay.

And just, I mean, Im trying to stay

Yeah, Im not trying to second guess

you, its just I have occasionally had some other cases where it looked patently obvious to me that there was no language problem and I was assured there was no language problem or similar kinds of problems and then after the fact, it comes back around that someone says there was and so Im now exceedingly cautious about this and its not intended to cast dispersions or anything.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 54 of 62 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 dont -MR. GLADDEN: THE MARSHAL: MR. GLADDEN: THE MARSHAL: I didnt know if there was any -There's no --- instructions? Theres no paper clips. MR. GLADDEN: know that -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: No problem. -- there would have been a -- I Im sorry I didnt bring it up. I

think Im supposed to give notice in advance if I need such an interpreter and I think I thought about it this morning for the first time, but -THE COURT: Okay. Well, its okay, well -- were

going to mark it on the list so hopefully well have one here next time and you can have one if you need it. MR. GLADDEN: I made a client copy of the

little -- and I have it here. THE COURT: Oh, I vacate one -- oh, I apologize, I think

Im vacating the Magistrate Judges Schedule.

thats apparent and at the next conference in three weeks, we will set a schedule for the rest of the case. MR. GLADDEN: Okay. I probably should be asking

the Marshal instead of you, but can I have client copies of these documents from Nigeria I just got this afternoon? THE COURT: Yeah, theyre legal documents. We

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 55 of 62 55 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 motion. motion. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Oh response? Yeah. It depends on when you make your about it. MR. GLADDEN: -- should we expect a reply before MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: or staples? THE MARSHAL: THE COURT: Right. Okay. Sounds good. So youll make a All right. Okay. Good.

Oh, where theres just no paper clips

copy for Mr. Burns too? MR. GLADDEN: now, should we expect -THE COURT: CJA pays for the copies, dont worry Ill get him copies and is he --

that next meeting with the Court so we can file -THE COURT: real world. needs -MR. GLADDEN: Not your reply, a reply to my No. Im not going to be able in the

I think that I will be able to rule if it

Im not expecting your motion to come until -- what

I was expecting at the next conference was the following: An exchange of documents hopefully before the conference, even if its only a couple of days because the Government -- all Governments seem to move slowly lately.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 56 of 62 56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 But anyway, Mr. Burns has his obligation to dig up all the documents relating to the extradition, go through them, turn over everything he can and if he withholds anything, make a privilege log. Youre going to do the same thing for

whatever your sources. I would like the documents turned over at least a couple of days before the hearing. Monday at noon. the 26th at noon. And then you all will have a sense of whats out there and you can then tell me, Mr. Gladden, you want to make your motion within a few days or a week or whatever it is and the Government will have 10 days to respond and youll get a reply and as soon as possible. And then I will rule. conference. Id like to set another Lets say no later than

At least we have a day with them -- Monday

Lets call it a month from then by which time

Ill have a deadline on myself and Ill be able to rule fully even if its just from the Bench. And then depending on what I do, well go with the rest of the schedule either trial or dismissal. And Mr. Burns is going to be hunting for those exhibits and for the rest of whatever it is youve got in your file on the merits and make that available as quickly as possible. And -- with respect to the substance and the

tapes and everything else, those kinds of things.

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 57 of 62 57 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Are there tapes in this case, Alan? MR. BURNS: THE COURT: MR. BURNS: absolutely. THE COURT: Okay. Well, anyway, youll make what Not that Ive seen. You dont -I dont think so, but I cant say

you can available and if it turns out the case is so stale that if -- and I dont mean that in the speedy trial sense, just -MR. BURNS: THE COURT: Uh-huh. -- the events are from 2003 and 2002

so if in your heart, you can turn over some of these papers, the reports included, it would be great if you would do that. I know what your normal policy is and, frankly, I

understand the concerns, but this case is a little different so Im encouraging you that -- just let copies you made of at least some of the reports if Mr. Gladden can identify or whatever, okay? All right, its an encourage. And, Your Honor, we have been pretty

MR. GLADDEN:

diligent trying to track down the witnesses from the first trial. I suspect they could use a lot of those witnesses

because my clients name came up a lot. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Yeah. And I dont think they can be found. You cant find --

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 58 of 62 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mostly? help -MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Well --- or state --- if we could learn from the MR. GLADDEN: so that might be -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Well, you know, Immigration --- that might be a real -- and I I dont think they can be found and

dont think Immigration would be the one to send him back to Nigeria. I think -THE COURT: No, no, I agree. I think they might

Government what witnesses that they do think they now have, it might resolve this case early on if -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Yes. -- theyre having a hard of time as

I am at finding witnesses necessary. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Yeah. All of the witnesses were in custody

and had been facing charges and have now been released that testified in your trial. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Right. Okay.

And they were all residents of

Nigeria and not the United States. THE COURT: Right because they were the mules

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 59 of 62 59 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 available. THE COURT: -- oh, okay, I dont know because I MR. GLADDEN: They were all caught at the airports

around the country and were only here for that purpose. Even though they were born here, they hadnt lived here. THE COURT: I get you. Okay. Well, Mr. -- why

dont you see what youre going to be doing on -- I mean, because you -- the question is: can you prosecute this case? MR. BURNS: Oh, I know for sure that there was

some pretty substantial sentences granted in this case so -THE COURT: MR. BURNS: Can you pull --- at least two witnesses are

dont have a whole Docket Sheet. MR. GLADDEN: Yeah, the two witnesses -- the two

Defendants in that case got 360 months and they are still here but I -THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Kassim? -- dont have -- I dont have any

evidence that they have ever cooperated or if theres any vehicle for their cooperation to benefit them at this late date in sentencing. THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: MR. GLADDEN: Hum, I dont know about that. I think theyre -A Rule 35 could happen. -- thats only good for a year, I

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 60 of 62 60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 believe. THE COURT: Yeah, well, technically thats true,

but if the circumstances -- there was a -- theres -- read the Rule carefully, if theres an escape -- excuse me, there is an escape hatch -MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Uh-huh. -- which is that the cooperation

happens later then a Rule 35 can happen. MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Im sorry to hear that. Im pretty sure thats true because

its happened to me in a couple of cases and I have not dealt with it in years so I dont know that to be the case for sure but Im thinking thats the case. seems to be nodding his head. So Mr. Burns

Anyway, I -- look, I dont

want to be heard to be making a case for the Government or for the Defense, Im just saying I dont think a Rule 35 is out of the question. given. I just didnt know what sentences Id

I cant remember at this point. Yeah, under 35(b)(2), later motions. (b)(1) is

the one you -- (b)(2) says -- because youve now got me curious: Upon the Governments motion made more than one year after sentencing, the Court may reduce the -- a sentence if the Defendants substantial assistance involved:

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 61 of 62 61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the 27th. (a) information not known to the Defendant until one year or more after the sentencing; (b) information provided by the Defendant to the Government within one year sentencing but which did not become useful to the Government until more than a year after sentencing or; (c) information the usefulness of which could not reasonably have been anticipated by the Defendant until more than one year after sentencing and which was promptly provided to the Government after its usefulness was reasonably apparent to the Defendant. MR. GLADDEN: So if they havent been cooperating

up till now, I think its too late. THE COURT: Well, that can be your argument. I

assume the Governments going to make a different argument but the point is: Ill decide that when the time comes too. But it does look like (c) is the context in which we will be arguing. Yeah, so (c),(b)(2), (c.) Thank you all then. I will see you in August on

Thank you all very much. MR. BURNS: MR. GLADDEN: THE COURT: Thank you, Judge. Thank you, Judge. Youre excused.

(This proceeding was concluded at 3:07 p.m.) * * * * ** * * * *

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Case 4:03-cr-00436 Document 488 Filed in TXSD on 08/20/13 Page 62 of 62 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I certify that the foregoing is a correct transcript to the best of my ability from the electronic sound recording of the proceedings in the above-entitled matter.

/S/ MARY D. HENRY


AAERT CET**D-337 JUDICIAL TRANSCRIBERS OF TEXAS, LLC JTT INVOICE #51474 DATE: AUGUST 20, 2013

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