3 1 02 Character and Fitness Hearing Transcript Coughlin State Bar of Nevada Ocr

1
THE STATE BAR OF NEVADA
BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON MORAL CHARACTER AND FITNESS
3
4
5
In Re Matter of ,
ZACHARY B. COUGHLIN ,
6 COMMITTEE ON MORAL Cf1.ARACTER

7
AND FITNESS
STATE BAR OF NEVADA .
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8
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10
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12
REPORTER' S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
13
Taken on Friday , March 1, 2002

At 9 , 20 o ' clock a . m.
14
15
At 600 East Charleston Boulevard
16
Las Vegas , Nevada
17
18
1
20
21
22
23
24
25 REPORTED BY :
DONNA E . MIZE , CCR NO . 675
ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382 -8 778

2300 W. Sahara , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89107
MICHAEL ROWE ,
Chai rman
Esq.
LORI STORY , Esq .

Member
KEVIN KELLY , Esq .
Member
GREGORY BROWN , M. D.
Member
PATRICE J . EICHMAN, ESQ .

Director of Admissions
STACY CATE
Admissions Investigator
EXHIBITS
Description
Page
3
57
57

FRIDAY , MARCH 1 , 2002 , LAS VEGAS , NEVADA
(9 : 20 a . m. )
MR . ROWE :
Good morning , Mr . Coughlin .
My
4 name is Michael Rowe , and I ' m the chairman of the State

5 Bar on Moral Character and Fitness Committee .
I would like to introduce the panel members
if I may .
On my immediate right is Dr . Greg Brown .
On
8 my immediate left is Ms . Lori Story , and on my far lef

9
10
is Mr . Kevin Kelly .
Mr . Coughlin , as part of our usual procedure
11
we mark a copy of the notice of formal hearing as the
12
first e xhibit and present that to the applicant .
13
you take a look at that notice .
14
15
Would
(Exhibi t 1 marked)
THE WITNESS :
I got it in the mail .
16 believe i t is a copy.
17
18
MR . ROWE :
Tnat is the notice which you are
responding today?
19
THE W:TKESS :
20
MR . ROWE :
Sure .
Mr . Coughlin , let me tell you
::0
21
based on my marriage
a court reporter for a long
22
time that you need to say yes or no .
Except for me ,
23 according to my wife , they can ' t hear your head rat Ie

24
when you shake it and uh-huhs and uh-uhs are hard to
25
hear and they are hard to report so if you would answer

ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382-8778
1 audibly and clearly so the reporter can get your answer

2 down , we would be appreciative of that .
I would like to refer to the notice,
4 Mr . Coughlin .
5 of the hearing .
I would like you to refer to the scope

You have been noti fied that the
6 committee is conce rned about your character and fit ness

7 including but not limited to some c riminal charges that
8 are indicated in t he record and a law school incident
9 regarding your cyber law c lass and any other matters
10 that may come up during the hearing .
I will menti on to you that the committee will
11
12 have questions of you , and you may be in the middle of

13 saying something that the time a question is being
14 asked , and I will apologize in advance , but it will
15 happen, and we like to ask questions when we thi nk of
16 them so that we don ' t forget what we were about
17
0 ask .
If you wil l note under the paragraph relati ng
18 to the procedures you will see that the burden is upon

19 you or any applicant to establish your moral character
20 and fitness to practice law in this state .
21 is by clear and convincing evidence .
That burden
You are entitled
22 also to have counsel represent you at this hearing , and

23 I see that you a r e not accompanied by coun sel this
24 morning .
25
Were you a ware that you could have an

1 attorney here to represent you?
THE WITNESS :
Well , I read this and my
3 understanding of it was that I could hire an attorney ,

4 not that I would have one appointed as you might in a
5 criminal conte x t where jail time wa s , you know, likely
6 or possible .
7
I was a ware , yes .
MR. ROWE :
Do you wish to proceed this
8 morning , Mr. Coughlin , without counsel here to

9
represent you?
10
THE WITNES S :
11
MR . ROWE :
I don ' t have any choice .
Let me clarify that for you .
If
12
you request it , sir , we would be -- I can only speak
13
for myself , but I believe the committee would be
14
amenable to a continuance of this matter for you to
15
have the time needed to retain counsel to represent
16
you , if you request it .
17
will proceed .
18
THE WITNESS :
If you don ' t request it , we
I thi nk I would like to proceed
19
both because , you know , anymore cost that would be
20
incurred i n getting a continuance , I would like to
21
avoid and because , you know , I just intend to be
22
forthcoming with you , not that if I had a lawyer I
23
wouldn ' t be .
24
25
MR . ROWE :
Mr . Coughli n , let me finish with
the procedure and then I will ask you to be s worn and ,

ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382 - 8778
1 believe me , you wil l be provided with any opportunity
2 to make any statements and offer any testimony ,

3 evidence and testimony by the wi tnesses that you may
4 wish .
In fact , that is part of the notification , that
5 you may offer such witnesses in support of your

6 application .
7
Do you understand that?
THE WITNESS :
I did -- you know , I don ' t have
9 any witnesses or a lawyer , and I should just say yes at
10 this point because we are doing procedure .

11
MR . ROWE :
If you are aware , I will move on ,
12 and , 1n fact , why don ' t we have
would you swear the
13 applicant in , and then if he wants to launch into an

14
e xplanation , it will be under oath .
15 Thereupon--
ZACHARY B. COUGHLIN ,
16
17
was called as a wi tness , and having been first duly
18
s worn , was e xamined a nd tes ified as follows :
19
MR . ROWE :
The next part of our notice is
20 notification that you may file with the committee any

21 prehearing brief containing any materials or
22 authorities that you might want us to consider in our
23 deliberations regarding your application .
24
25
You were
aware of that?
THE WITNESS :
Yes .

MR . ROWE :
The burden is upon you ,
2 Mr . Coughlin , to demonstrate that you have the

3
requisite , moral character and fitness to become a
4 member of the State Bar of Nevada .
We are making a
formal record here today .
into a booklet f ormat , much the same as a ny other
record is prepared .
When we are finished today and assuming that
8
9
That record will be prepared
t h e record does n ot remain open for the producti on of
10 documents either at our r equest or your request , then

11
the matter wi ll be submitted to the State Supreme
12 Court .
They are the ones that make the ultimate
13 decision .
We are merely a fact finding body f or them ,
14
and we make recommendations to them , but the Nevada
15
Supreme Court is the body t h at makes the final
16 determination .
17
Do you understand that?
18
THE WITNESS :
19
MR . ROWE :
Yes .
Today , Dean Morgan is here .
20
understand that you and MS . Eichman have discussed Dean
21
Morgan ' s testimony and the fact that the notice did not
22
contain a notification paragraph in it to you that Dean
23 Morgan would testify .
24
25
Do you walve any
deficie~cies
in the notice
to allow Dean Morgan to testify?

THE WITNESS :
MR . ROWE :
Yes .
A couple of other matters .
3 would like you to listen to these carefully because I

4 have some questions regarding your applicant that I
5 would like to ask the director before \ole get started ,
6 and you need to pay particular attention to these
7 questions because the burden is upon you as you know
8 from the application to provide a complete application
9 to the director of admissions and to the committee .
10
11
I have noted in
he information that has been
submitted to us that with regard to question 15
12 Mr . Coughlin has indicated a negative answer regarding

13 dropped , placed on suspension -- excuse me , placed on
14 probation , suspended , disciplined , expelled , dismissed
15 by a school or institution of higher learning , and we
16 know there has been at least some question about that .
17
In your opinion is this application complete
18 and lS Mr . Coughlin ' s supplement required?

19
MS . EICHMAN :
For question 15 although it
20 asks for ha ve you ever been dropped , placed on

21 probation , suspended , disciplined , expelled , dismissed
22 or are sub j ect to discipline for violation of any
23 school policy, it is my understanding that none of
24
those have actually occurred , but it would never hurt
25 to have a supplement when there was an ongoing

1 investigation
2
0 let us know what was going on .
I don ' t believe we had anything in wri ting
3 that gave the final outcome .
I don ' t know .
Maybe
4 there wasn ' t anything in writing provided, but if there

5 was we ';QuId like to have that provided .
6
MR . ROWE :
7 question 28 .
I ha ve the same question regarding
There is some indication by documents
8 that the applicant has provided t o us that there was at

9 least a criminal complaint , and I thin k his statement
10 to us is that he was arrested for three misdemeanors .
11
12
Have you received all the information

regarding question 28 relating to have you ever been
13 arrested , cited, i.ndicted or tried for or convicted of

14 any c riminal charges including juvenile matters or
15 moving violation.
Have you conside red all that you
16 needed to consider the application complete with regard

17
18
to that question?
MS . EICHMAN :
With regard to question 28 , I
19 believe Mr . Coughlin did supplement his answer when the

20 arrest did occur , but we did not receive the ac ual
21
22
police repo rt that would describe the incident .

At his informal hearing he did supplemen
the
23
record with the complaint and the docket sheet that
24
showed a dismissal by the court , and that may be all
25
that was available regarding the dismissal , but I know

ASSOCIATED REPORTERS Of NEVADA - 702/382-8778
10
1 we do not have an ac ual police report .
MR . ROWE :
We can certainly get into that .
3 Those are my questions .
Does anyone else have a
4 question relating to the procedure before we get

5 started?
Sir , the burden is yours so you may make your
7 openi ng statements and provide your testimony .

THE WI TNESS :
Well , I would like to , you
9 know , point out that wit h the burden being on me and

10 the fact that I haven ' t supplemented you with any
11 prehearing brief or have an attorney doesn ' t mean that
12
I don ' t take this seriously or don ' t want to practice
13 law here .
14
I received notice of this , I believe , around
the 21 , 22 , and the.next day I was
I had already
15 planned to go to California , and I have just recently

16 completed taking the bar exam ln California yesterday .
17
Please don ' t let my lack of witnesses or hearing brief
18 indicate that I don ' t care .

MR . ROWE :
19
20 moment .
Let me interrupt you there for a
We won ' t and we don ' t -- I would like to
21
revisit with you once again the idea of obtaining
22
counsel and proceeding today .
We want to afford you
23 every fair opportunity to be as prepared as you would

24
like to be to present to us anything and everything
25
that you think is relevant to your application to

11
1 practice la w in the State of Nevada , and if you do not

2
feel prepared to go fonlard today , all you need
0 do
is me n tio n that to us right now, and we will allow you
4 whatever t ime you need to become as prepared as you

5
think you ought to be .
I don ' t want yo u to think that we are going
to ramrod this thro ugh or we have any compell ing reason
to get it d o ne toda y .
Slr , if you wish to go forward o r if you would like
10
We do not .
It 1S up to you ,
some additi onal ti me to become better prepa r ed .

MR . KELLY :
11
Before you answer that , my sense
12
is that you don ' t totally appreciate the seriousness of
13
these
14
not a single note .
15
finished taking the ba r exam whi ch f o r anyone of us 1S
16
a very draining , e xtremel y pre ssured situation .
17
roceedings .
I ' m looking at you , and there is

You just acknowledged that y ou
I have already allocated time for this
18
hearing today , bu t I ' m telli ng you I would defer in a
19
second based on what you are telling me and what I see
20
toda y to strongly suggest that you consider the Chair ' s
21
offe r to reschedule this and maybe have somebody here
22
to help yo u .
23
You s pent three years at law school .
24
here today because there is some issues tha
25
arise n that may cause u s concern .
You are
have
I thi nk you need to
ASSOCIATED REPORTERS Of NEVA DA - 702/382-87 78

2300 W. Sahara , Suite 770 , La s Vegas , NV 89102
12
1 glve it the appropriate importance that it deserves .
2 It is up to you .
3
THE WITNESS :
Thank you for telling me that .
4 Would it be possible for in terms of meeting this

5 burden of proof to establish my character , would it be
6 possible for me to anSVIer any questions you might have
7 today about the criminal matter or the law school
8 incident because I feel comfortable answering questions
9 about those , but in terms of meeting my burden in terms
10 of having things , like , I don ' t know what might be
11
standard in this situation , have someone come in to
12
vouch for my character or some of those things , if I
13 could supplement this hearing at some time or the

14
dismissal or the police report , things to show that I ' m
15
trying to meet this burden , and I think that I would
16 prefer that , to be able to answer questions today and
17 do what I can today to address

18
hese matters , and then
in terms of the burden , later have some supplementary
19 material s if that seems necess ary and appropriate .

20
21
MR . ROWE :
My own view on that is , and I will
let the rest of the committee speak for themselves , but
22 my own view on that 1S we have certainly allowed the

23
record to remain open for the additional materials that
24
people desire to submit to us , and we have left it open
25
for as long as needed for those materials to be

13
1 assembled and supplied .

2
The likelihood that there would not be a
3 further hearing on the record is no better than 50/50

4 because if you submit information
0 us that prompts
5 any question whatsoever in my mind , and I think in the

6 other committee member ' s minds as well , we would want
7 to ask you those questions .
We do not ask ques ions of
8 an applicant under these circumstances without having

9 it on the record in the context of a formal hearing .
You certainly may do that .
10
11
tell you how to work your case .
I am not going to
I ' m giving you an
12 opportunity to obtain advice about how to do that , but

13 we are not here to advise you as
0 how to do that .
More than likely , though , if you did submit
14
15 significant other supplement materials , we would call

16 you back in and have questions about those rna erials so
17
18
you know .
THE WITNESS :
I ' m comfortable with that .
19 certainly take your warning seriously , sir .
From what
20
I understand , everything that we are talking about
21
today , the criminal charge , you know, I feel completely
22 comfortable talking about that .
I indicated to
23 Mr . Bailey things that were in the police report as I

24
25
was completely forthcoming with him .

The law school incident is pretty much
14
recorded entirely ln E-mail con versations so in terms
of an evidentiary matter t hat is all admissible so I
wou ld like to go on and add r ess these matters .

MR . ROWE :
I think we have provided you a
fair o ppor unl y to know what yo ur rights are so we
6 will continue .
Do you wish to make any further o pening
7
8
statement , or a r e you submitting that to us no w for
9 questions?
THE WI TNESS :
10
Just that , you know, I have
11
apo logized to all these people in these E- mails f or the
12
rudeness , the lack of professionali s m, and , you kno w, I
13
think I got the c haracter and fitness necessa r y to do
14
this job , and I take it seriously .
15
have to say .
MR . ROWE :
16
17
18
That is about all I
Mr . Kelly , are you prepared
go
for ward?
MR . KELLY :
Can you tell me exactly how the
19
criminal c harges commenced because we don ' t have a copy
20
of the discovery?
21
Apparently , you were arrested f or three
22
charges and the district attorney , I ' m as s umi ng , made a
23
decision to charge you o n l y with the obstruction .
24
25
Tell us what happened on Octob e r 14 of last

year that brought about this arrest .
2300 1'1 . Sahara , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89102
15
THE WITNESS :
I rode my bicycle to the
Sh o wcase cinema or movie theater on the Strip , Las
Vegas Strip , and I wa s theater hopping , going from one
4 movie to another , and an usher approached me and asked

5 me to talk with him outside in the hallway .
6 and then I e xited .
I indicated that I would .
I stood up
I stood
up and then decided I would just rather leave the
theater and I did quickly .
They pursued me and I started t o run , and
10
then they yelled some obscenities at me .
11
gentleman in plain clothes and one , I believe , looked
12
as though he was an usher , and they were running after
13
me f o r abo ut hal f a mile I would say.
14
At this point I didn ' t think they were
15
chasing me for theater hopping .
16
were chasi ng me .
17
18
One of these
I didn ' t know why they
I wa s actually a little bit scared .
Then in the course of the c hase we came upon

several police officers , and I was running at the time .
19 The p o lice officers told me to sop .
I stopped as soon
20
as the adrenalin that was running through me from
21
running already all o wed me to stop .
22
the air , and approximately o ne to two seconds later I
I put my hands i n
23 was arrested .
24
25
MR . KELLY :
How far after you were ordered to
stop did your adrenalin allow you to stop?

16
THE WITNES S :
MS . STORY :
THE WITNESS :
MS . STORY :
How far?
How far did you go?
Probably 20 feet .
Did the people at the theater
identify themselves in anyway when they first
approached y ou ?
THE WITNESS :
clothes .
MR. KELLY :
You were still living on Jones?
10
THE WITNESS :
11
MR . KELLY :
12
THE WITNESS :
13
MR . KELLY :
15
THE WITNESS :
16
MR . KELLY :
Where were y ou living ?

Los Reyes .
You drove your bike downto wn?

That ' s right.
Any particular reason you went
THE WITNESS :
It 1S the closest mOV1e
theater.
20
MR . KELLY :
21
THE !'IITNESS :
22
MR . KELLY :
23
showcase at Maryland Parkway?
24
25
It is by the
downtown?
18
19
No .
Uni versi ty .
14
17
No , one of them wa s 1n plain
THE WITNESS :
To the university area?

As far as?
Are you talking about the
No , the Showcase right on the
strip .
ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382-87 78
17
MR . KELLY :
What caused the officers to write
up the evading resisting obstruction?

THE WITNESS :
I ' m not sure .
As I indicated I
4 put my hands above my head , and then they arrested me .

5
I did what I thought would indicate I was not resisting
6 at all by putting my hands behind my back, and they

7
later told me that it was resisting , possibly rea ching
for a weapon or something behind my back .

I have never been arrested before so I didn ' t
9
10
know how to indicate I ' m not resisting , you know, it
11
was a full on arrest with , you know , we will break your
12
thumb , mother fucker , and this sort of stuff with my
13
thumb held in this way .
14
kno w, asking things like is this a Terry stop or am I
Shut the fuck up .
I wa s , you
15 being arrested o r these law school doctrines , and in my

16 opinion , that didn ' t help .
Clearly , I think they are within their bounds
17
18 as police officers when somebody is runnlng and t wo

19 people are saying stop him , whi ch I imagine they were
20
saying , but I can ' t remember e xa ctly that that is why
21
they arrested me .
22
I can ' t speculate as to why they cha rged me
23 with what they charged me with , but there was a lot of

24
shu
the fuck up , we don ' t give a fuck you went to la w
25
school , you know a lot of fucking people went to law

18
1 school .
MR . KELLY:
I get the gist of the language .
3 Wha t time o f day was this?

THE WI TNESS :
About 10 : 00 at night , 10 : 00 or
11 : 00 .
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
10
MR . KELLY :
11
THE WITNESS :
12
MR . KELLY :
13
THE WI TNESS :
14
MR . KELLY :
Had you been drinking ?

I might ha ve ha d one at dinner .
What time was dinner?
7 : 00 .
Were you with anyone?
No .
Where did you eat ?
At home .
So you had one beer at dinner at
15 home?
THE WITN ESS :
16
17 it
1S
I can ' t remember , but I thin k
possible .
MR . KELLY :
18
How long had you been in the
19 theater up to this point?

20
THE WITNESS :
21
MR . KELLY :
22
theate r s .
Probably an ho ur .
You were hopping between
Did you pay for a s ingle show?
23
THE WITNESS :
24
MR. KELLY :
25
THE WITNESS :
No .
How did you get in?
I just walked i n .

2300 W. Sa hara , Suite 770 , La s Vegas , NV 89102
19
MR . KELLY :
So you were hopping between
2 theaters and you weren ' t even legitimately there for a

3 single show?
4
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
6 went to court .
That ' s correct .

Tell us what happened when you
Tell me the sequence of the court
7 proceedings?
THE WITNESS :
At the arrangement two of the
9 charges were just not pursued so I assume that means

10 they were dismissed .
MR . KELLY :
11
You mean the criminal complaint
12 only charged you with the one offense?

THE WITNESS :
13
That ' s correct.
Then a court
14 date was set and I contacted Mr. Wil liam Hane and -15
MR . KELLY :
16
THE WITNESS :
The DA?
Well , I think he is one of the
17 DAs or -18
MR . KELLY :
19
THE WITNESS :
He is a deputy DA .
Okay .
He dismissed the charge
20 provided that I didn ' t get in trouble until the date of

21 my trial which was , I believe , January 17 .
MR . KELLY :
22
Had you received a copy of the
23 discovery?
24
THE WITNESS :
25
MR . KELLY :
What is the discovery?

Give me an idea of wha t your

2300 ~l. Sahara , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89102
20
..
1 criminal law cou rse s are?
Have you taken moot court or
2 anything?
3
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
No .
Did you take any clinical program
5 for advocacy?
6
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
No .
What did you have in criminal
8 law?
9
THE WITNESS :
Criminal procedure , criminal
10 law , thi ngs of that sort , constitutional law .
11
MR . KELLY :
12
THE WITNESS :
l3
MR. KELLY :
14
THE WITNESS :
15
MR . KELLY :
So strictly classroom studies?

Yes .
Have you ever sat lr a courtroom?
Yes .
What did you sit In a courtroom
16 for?
17
THE WITNESS :
18
MR . KELLY :
19
THE WITNE SS :
20
MR . KELLY :
21
THE WITNESS :
22
MR . KELLY :
Bankruptcy .
For yours?
No .
Someone else ' s?
Yes .
Have you ever sat In any of
23 arraignment calendars in any of the justice courts or

24 d istrict courts?
25
THE WITNESS :
Just for my own hearing .

21
MR . KELLY :
It is safe to assume you didn ' t
2 have much e xperience either academically or just

3 watching prior to going into court on the arraignment
4 date for your case ; 1S that a fair assumption?
5
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
Yes .
When did you meet up with
Mr. Hane?
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
I think
--
I will advise you I ' m looking at
10 the minutes and he was there for the November 14
11 proceeding .
Is that the first time you met with him ,
12 or had you tal ked to him ahead of court?

13
THE WITNESS :
I think I waited after that
14 proceeding to talk to him , and I tal ked to him that

15 day , some time later that day , about an hour after .
16
MS . STORY :
You mentioned the police report
17 in your earlier statement when y ou were talking abcut

18 Mr . Bailey and you were forthcoming , and you told him
19 stuff that wasn ' t in the police report ; do you have a
20 copy of that police report?
21
THE WITNESS :
22
MS . STORY :
No .
How do you know what was 1n the
23 police report?
24
THE WITNESS :
I guess I don ' t know what is in
25 the police report , but I know I wa s n ' t charged with

22
theater hopping or anything of that sort so I

2 assumed -- that is what I meant when I said I told
charged
3 him -- I didn ' t go In there and see - - I was
with these three things , and they were dismissed .
5 said I was charged with these three things .
They with
6 dismissed and they were in connection with this theater

7 hopping .
Did you ask Mr . Hane for a copy
MS . STORY :
9 of the police report or anything?

10
THE WITNESS :
11
MS . STORY :
No .
I think that is what we mean by
12 discovery .
13
THE lHTNESS :
14
MS . STORY :
Okay .
He didn ' t o ffer to show you o ne
15 or make any reference to submit it?

16
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
18
MR . ROWE :
19
DR . BROWN :
No .
I wou ld like to see that report .
I wo uld too .
As you were runnlng from the
20 theater , did the plain clothes off i ce r identify himself

21 as a policeman?
22
THE WITNESS :
I don ' t know of any plain
23 clothes officer .
24
DR . BROWN :
You referred to someone who was
25 in plain clothes?
23
THE WITNESS :
2 theater ma nager .
I believe that was a movie
I later learned that -- I didn '
3 learn but it was suggested that was a movie theater

4 manager , and he was off duty that night .
MR . ROWE :
When you were addressi ng
6 Mr . Kelly ' s questions you made a couple of statemen s

7 abou
why you were at t he theater , a nd I want to be
8 sure I understand your testimony co r rectl y .

Is it cor r ect to unders a nd that you went to
10 the theater a nd got in , e ntered the theater without

11 purchasing a tic ket for any of the movies that might be
12 shOl-ling 1n the theaters?
THE WITNESS :
MR . ROWE :
14
That is correct .
At the time that you did that ,
15 were you aware that it was customary and usual to

16 purchase a t i c ket to view t he movies?
17
THE WITNESS :
18
MR . ROWE:
I was .
How did you enter the theater
19 W1 hout purchasing the ticket?

THE WITNESS :
20
There is a hallway t hat just 1S
21 on -- the Showcase theater has two hallways , a nd one is

22 manned by a security guard or an usher and the other 1S
23 not .
24
25
I had intended to pay for the movie .
There was a
line about 30 people and unfortunately , I didn ' t .

MR . ROWE:
Do you t hin k that is fair to the

24
1 proprietor of the thea er?
THE WITNESS :
MR . ROWE :
To view the movie without paying
for the admission?
THE WITNESS :
MR . ROWE :
Not at all .
Not at all .
How many times had you d one it
before that night?

THE WITNESS :
That was the first time ln my
9 life I had ever done that.

MS . STORY :
10
11
How were you aware to get into
the theater by this unmanned hallway?

THE WITNESS :
12
I had been in the theater
13 before and I noticed the hallway.

14
That is hOlv
r was
aware of it .
MR . ROWE :
15
When you submitted -- I can ' t tell
16 if this is a fax or E- mail , and it is dated October 29 ,

17
and it is to Ms . Eic hman , the director of admissions ,
18
you indicated that you had been arrested and charged
19 with three misdemeanors and stated I very much believe

20
this is a case of mistaken identity .
21
by that?
22
THE WITNESS :
What did you mean
From what I understand from
23 what I was told , the gentlemen weren ' t chasing me

24
because they thought I was theater hopping o r anything
25
to that extent .
Later it was told to me that I matched

25
1 the description of someone "ho had either been

2 stealing -- I ' m not sure "hat , stealing something from
3 the candy bar section or maybe purse sna tching .
4 never wa s clear on that .

It was indicated to me that I matched the
6 description of someone who had in the months prior been

7 involved in some situations that involved some sort of
8 theft .
That is -- and the police officer said , you
9 know , you match the description of t hi s guy or you

10 know , that is why they are chasing you , and so that is
11 why I think it was a case of mistaken identity .
MR . KELLY :
12
In that same note that you sent
13 which struck me when I read this , which I highlighted

14
and circled , as I indicated to Alex , I believe around a
15 "eek ago I was arrested .
Let me tell you I found that
16 strange .
I mean , I highlighted and circled it In red .
17
I found it strange because here is a guy who
18 is in his third year at law school , hadn ' t seen any

19 other criminal arrests or convictions or anything , and
20 it had kind of a well , it was a week ago , I 'm not
Ll
really sure kind of thing as opposed to on October 14 ,
22
I was arrested for , you know .
I believe around a week
23 ago , how definitive , how precise is that information

24
when it onl y happened - - we have had people sitting in
25 your chair who are trying to remember events several

26
years earlier , and here this is a documen
date
October 29 and this event occurred on October 14 .

We are talking about t wo weeks earlier , and
you say I believe around a week ago .
of this package that we each have , your application is
This is in terms
6 in it , I have a brief n ote fr om the director of

7
admissions , we have your application, I have the two
documents from the court , the complaint and the
9 minutes , and then I see your -- this is the first note .

10
We haven ' t even got into all the stuff
11
involving law school , and that is the first thing I
12
highlight because I ' m saying what is going on with this
13
guy .
14
My comments to you at the beginning of these
15
proceedings were somewhat based on what I read las
16
night and you coming in this morning , it appears taking
17
this in the same vane that you took the arrest , you
18
know , it happened , you know , I ' m 25 years old , no big
19
deal .
22
I ' m sorry .
THE WITNESS :
20
21
Go ahead .
I certainly don ' t feel that
way.
MR . KELLY :
You may not .

ha, and
But everything you
23
are doing manifests
his statement is a clear
24
manifestation of not taking it serious , not even having
25
the courtesy to find out e xa ctly when it was , and it

2300 w. Sahara , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89102
27
1 only happened two weeks earlier , and it is the firs

2 time
~n
your life you are ever placed
~n
handcuffs .
3 Were you given a citation or were you sent to jail?

4
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
~n
city jailor county
Clark County Detention Center .

You had the benefit of going down
to - -
10
THE WITNESS :
11
MR . KELLY :
12
THE WITNESS :
13
Were you
jail?
I spent the night in jail .
Maybe I could explain .

Absolutely .
At this time , you know , I was
taking a full load of law school classes .
14 my bike
I was riding
0 school because I didn ' t have a car , and I
15 was living in a garage because I didn ' t have any money

16 so it wasn ' t a case of me just not caring enough to
17 look up the date of the arrest , you know , I wa s doing
18 what I could to get through my life , you know, and take
19 care of all my responsibilities and make sure I
20 complied with telling the Bar about the arrest , and ,
L1
you know , I wish I had been more specific about the
22 date of the arrest and things of that sort .

MR . KELLY :
24
This is happening about 30 days
after September 11 so forgive me if I don ' t feel
25 overwhelmed by your tragedy in life that you were

78
bicycling to the movies and were living -- you know,
that goes to some of the other comments because i
woe lS me throughout the comments .
accepting any responsibility , everything was you are
taking a heavy course load , eve rybody is picking on you
so keep going because you need a long way to go for me .
was
You were not
I don ' t have anymore questions on this area .
MS . STORY :
No .
DR. BROW:
No questions.
MR . ROWE :
10
I would like to wrap up on this
11
arrest ln October of last year with this observation .
12
There are charges that can be brought against people
13
that fail to pay for a room at a hotel or ta x i cab or a
14
mOVle .
15
person .
16
language .
Up north it is called defrauding a business

Various ordinances are written in different
What concerns us is not so much the
17
18
significance of seeing a free movie , it is the
19 dishonesty that goes into that and that goes directly

20
on what we perceive to be an applicant ' s moral
,,1
character .
22
I would like you to explain the termination
"3
of your employment at the law library at Boyd Law
24
School , and I will ask you to specifically e xplain what
25
was going through your mind when you took ten dollars
29
from the - -
1 1m not sure \.Jhere it was,
it wa s a change
2 box and left an IOU .

Explain to us the nature and c ircumstances of
4 your employment , wha
your duties were and why your
5 termination occurred .
THE WITNESS :
I don ' t know exactly why I was
7 terminated , but I suspect it involved that as well as

8 something with not performing my duties very well a
9 the job there "'hich included spe cifically putting
10 labels on envelopes , and I had to sit down with the
11 manager of the library about my inability
0 -- or my
12 lack of putting the envelopes o n straight .

The I OU note was poor j udgment again .
13
14
My
girlfriend wa s coming into town that might, and my car
15 broke down
hat day , and I didn ' t -- I wa s having
-- my
16 parents were sending me money that wa s to arrive the

17
nex
day in the mail so I didn ' t have any money, a nd I
18 needed some way to pick my girlfriend up from the

19 airport .
I put an IOU note in the change drawer and
20
21
the next morning before anybody said anything , I paid
22 it back .
MR. KELLY :
24
25
Were you
n p t tj
no paid when you
were working at the library?

THE WITNESS :
Yes .

2300 W. Sahara , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 8910 2
30
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
What we re you getting paid?

Seven dollars an hour .
How many hours a week were you
4 working?
THE WITNESS :
6 wee k .
I was working about 12 hours a
I might have been working more than that at some
7 point .
8
MR . KELLY :
Were you receiving some
9 assistance from your family , financial assistance?
10
THE WITNESS :
11
MR . KELLY :
12
THE WITNESS :
13
MR . KELLY :
Occasionally .
Were you living off campus?
Yes .
Who was
pay~ng
the rent for the
14 off campus residence?

15
THE WITNESS :
16
MR . KELLY :
I was .
Where were you -- I ' m thinking
17 you are saying about working 12 hours a week , that

18 doesn ' t give you very much?
19
20
21
THE WITNESS :
I was also taking out the
federal loans .
MR . KELLY :
We didn ' t get to loans yet .
22 asked if your family wa s helping you?

~3
THE WITNESS :
24
MR . KELLY :
Yeah .
And you said occasiona lly.
On a
25 monthly basis what would they send to you?

31
THE WITNESS :
I wasn ' t really getting sent
2 anything on a monthly basis .

3 such as this .
It was more an emergency
I can ' t remember speci ically why I was
4 being sent money at that point .

5 I didn '
There was times where
file my federal financial aid forms in time to
6 receive the disbursement by the beginning of the

7 semester and things of that sort .
MR . KELLY :
In addition to picking up the
9 tuition , what were you receiving from student loans or,

10 and again , I ' m not really familiar with how the system
11 works?
THE WITNESS :
12
You get a disburs ement at the
13 beginn ing of each semester .

MR . KELLY :
14
So you get one check that cove rs
15 you or supposed to cover you for the
16
THE WITNESS :
17
MR . KELLY :
Yes .
Would you typically pay three or
18 four months in advance on your r ent , or would you try

19 to budget that one disbursement per semester and cove r
20 each month as it came?
THE WITNESS :
21
I would try to do each mont h as
22 it came .
MR . KELLY :
23
What kind of car were you
24 driving?
25
THE WITNESS :
A Ford Taurus .

32
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNE SS :
MR . KELLY :
What year?
1990 .
Your dad was a doctor?
Yes .
Was he practicing up in Reno?
Yes .
Is he still practicing?
Yes .
Did you determine what that pe ty
10 change was, the box, the money that you took the ten
11 dollars and put the IOU in , what was the purpose of
12 that box , that change box?
13
THE WITNESS :
14
MR . KELLY :
15
THE WITNE SS :
I think it was -Xerox costs and things?

Things of that sort , people ' s
16 fines for overdue books .
I was a clerk checking out
17 books , and that box is for clerks

MR. KELLY :
18
0 give change .
Tell me because I was somewhat
19 interested , you got lnto a hassle because of inadequate

20 placing of labels on envelopes .
21
that about?
THE WITNESS :
22
23 situation .
24
What the heck was all
It ha s
I haven ' t thought of the
bec o~e
wo e clear to me .
These were
envelope s , I think , being mailed to alumni or people
25 the law school was sending s ome sort of mailing t o , and

33
there was some preprinted address stickers .

MR . KELLY :
I understand envelopes gOlng on
3 for whatever t he contents .
I know what labels are , but
4 I ' m trying to understand what wa s the big deal about

5 putting the labels on the envelope .
I ' m gathering that
6 you were told at least on one occasion how they wanted

7 them affixed , and I ' m gathering it became an issue that
8 you didn ' t follow those instructions ; is there
9 something more to it?
10
11
THE WITNESS :
This was a one-time thing .
wasn ' t really instructed on how to do it , but anybody
12 would know you have an envelope , and you put a label on
13 it , and you are supposed to try to do it parallel to

14
the edge of the envelope to make it look professional .
15 And some of my labels were less than parallel .

16 didn ' t reflect well on the law school .
That
I certainly
17 didn ' t mean to make it reflect poorly on the law

18
19
school .
MR . KELLY :
How aoout the photocopying?
20 There was a problem with you inadequately photocopying?

21
THE WITNESS :
From what I understood , yes .
22 Some of the photocopies had -- they weren ' t as nice as

23 someone might like them .
24
MR . KELLY :
Do you have any sense of what
~s
25 emerg1ng about your own conduct , your own behavior , the

34
1 way you go about performing a task , and agaln , we

2 haven ' t even gotten to a far more different kind of an
3 issue which is the ;;ho1e matter with Professor Tratos ,
4 but we start off with this simple little notice
5 Bar
the
hat you had this event some ti me , and then you get
6 into labels and photocopying , and then we are getting
7 into somethi ng more substa ntive .

8
Do
9 that migh
'\
you see something emerging in this conduc
cause s ome cf us a little concern or is
10 this
11
THE WI TNESS :
12
MR . KELLY :
Sure , sure .
What might be emerglng In my
13 head , for e xample , do you have any idea based on what

14 my questions are , what I ' m highlighting , do you have a
15 sense of what concerns me?
16
THE WI TNESS :
17
MR . KELLY :
18
MR . ROWE :
Sure .
We will keep going .
Do
you have any questions relating
19 to the employment?
20
21
MS . STORY :
I ' m wondering did they up and
fire you one day , or did they ever counsel you about
22 your performance?
23
24
THE WIT ESS :
0.
I never received any sort
of notice or -- T can ' t think of the word , you don ' t do
25 this , you are bad .

35
HS . STORY :
Reprimand , Harning?
THE WITNESS :
Haybe about the photocopying
3 but they just asked me to do it over and I did .

4 fired me .
They
That morning - - I returned that morning and
5 they fired me that afternoon .
Then , finals Here about
6 a week later or two weeks later .

HR . ROWE :
What was said to you when they
8 f ired you?
THE WITNES S :
I ca n ' t remember e xactly .
10 had a long conversa tion with the law librarian .

11
HR . ROWE :
12
THE WITNESS :
13
HR . KELLY :
14
Wha t is her name?

Kory Staheli .
Do you have the date of when that
termi nation took pl ace?

HR . ROWE :
15
The appl ication indicates
16 employment was f r om October of ' 99 to Hay of 2000 ; is

17 that correct?
It appears to be in your handwr iting?
HS . EICHNAN :
18
In his statement Hr . Coughlin
19 put down the dismissal date as January 5 , 2000 .

20
THE WITNESS :
I put that?
21
HS . EI CHNAN :
In your supplement to your
22 application .
THE WITNESS :
23
I don ' t recognize that .
Can I
24 see t ha t?
25
HR . ROWE :
Ms . Reporter , there is an unusual

2300 W. Sa ha ra , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89102
36
spelling
0 the name .
So the record is accurate, Kory
2 1S K- O-R-Y , and the last name is 5 - T-A- H-E-L- I .

TwO parts of your application have indicated
4 t wo differen
d tes of termination of your employment .
5 Would you clarify that for us?

I am looking at the supplemental information
7 sheet whi ch i ndicates the employment from October 1999

8 to May of 2000 , and your typewritten supplement to
he
9 application that was just shown to you by the director

10 indicates January 5, 2000 .
Would you please make sure we understand the
11
12 date that you were fired from your job with the
13 library?
14
THE WITNESS :
Is it that the dates aren ' t
15 matching up with wha t I just said or the dates -16
MR. ROWE:
17 termination in
There are t wo different dates of
he application itself, and if you would
18 like you can show him - - it is 1n attachment A that I ' m

19 referring to for the first set of dates .
20
21
22
THE WITNESS :
thin k I made a mistake .

MR . ROWE :
23 application
24
That is supposed to be 5/1 .
fill~d
Now that you have revie" ed the

out in your own hand, what day was
it that you were fired from the law library?
Is it May
25 of 2000 or January of 2000 is the question?

37
THE WITNESS :
2 right nm. .
I can ' t remember for certain
I ' m leaning towards May because I think it
3 was warm outside at the time .

MR . KELLY :
the semester
would it be
THE WITNESS :
How about ln terms of the end of
I t would make more sense to say
May because January would just be the beginning of the
semester .
MS . STORY :
How long did you work at the law
10 library?
11
THE WITNESS :
I ' m no t certain the exact
12 number of months , but it was pretty much the firs

13 of law school .
14
year
I was working -- I was studying there
until about midnight each night , and the lady who
15 worked there said why don ' t you just work here , and I
16 said well , yeah , that would be great .
17
I cou ld get paid
for that so I just worked there for that whole first
18 year basically .
I t might not be the entire first
year
19 because the first probably month oc maybe longer than

20 that , two , three months , I can ' t remember , I wasn ' t
21 working there .
22
MR . KELLY :
The reason you listed for leaving
23 on the application itself was end of school year and

24 managerial conflicts .
25
THE WITNESS :
Uh-huh .

38
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
Was that accurate?

I can ' t remember whether it was
you are fired or I;e just don ' t think you should come
back , but I think that -MR . KELLY :
Managerial conflict , what was
6 going on with the managers?

7
They had a conflict with
you?
THE WITNES S :
Yes .
They had a conflict with
9 me .
MS . STORY :
10
What in your mind is the
11
difference between you are fired and we don ' t think you
12
should come back?

THE WITNES S :
13
14
that I ' m
15
that?
Didn ' t I indicate that I wa s fired on
MS . STORY :
16
17
ired .
I think there is a difference
No, you indicated you were
terminated .
THE WITNESS :
18
There is a section of the
19 application that says please lndicate any cimes tha

20
you had been fired , and I indicated under that that I
21
had been fired , and I tried to indicate why I thought I
22
was fired .
23
MR . KELLY:
This is attachment A to the
24
"pplicat i on .
I want you to -- I want that back .
25
want you to see what you wrote in terms of your

39
1 employment with the law school library .

2
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
I thought
--
Did I correctly state that it was
quote end of school year and managerial conflict?
Is
5 that what it says on the application?

6
7
THE WITNESS :
Yes .
it was my understanding
To further c larify that ,
it was my tenuous
8 understandi ng that hirings were made on a

9 semester-to-semester basis and that I wasn ' t being
10 hire d for the ne x t semester , the summer semester , and I
11
thought that in conjunction with my earlier statements
12
that I was indeed fired and were not being rehired for
13 the semester \-las forthcoming .

14
MS . STORY :
I was just curious .
You seem to
15 make a differentiati on between the t wo , and I wanted to

16 know what you thought it was and what you meant .
17
MR . ROWE :
In this con versation you had with
18 Kory at the time that you were terminated from your

19 e mployment wi t h the lIbrary , did Kory mention to you
20
that she was concerned about your taking ten dollars
21
from the change box f or your own use even though you
22
left an IOU?
23
THE WITNESS :
24
MR .
25
ROWE :
To
Yes .
h e bpst
that
Y011 c;:r,n
rpC't=lll
today , what did she tell you her conce rns were about
40
tha t?
THE WITNESS :
MR . ROWE :
THE WITNESS :
Kory is a male .
I ' m sorry .
Kory told me that he thought it
was inappropriate .
MR . ROWE :
Did he say anything else about why
he thought it was inappropria e?
THE WITNESS :
MR . ROWE :
Not that I can remember .
Any further questions about the
10 employment terminati o n?
MR . KELLY :
11
No .
Just to finalize this area ,
12
you did , in fact , answer correctly question number 46
13
where it asked had yo
14
dismissed , and you indicated yes , you had and then you
ever been terminated or
15 gave the supplemental .
I don ' t want you to think that
16
you didn ' t say "hat you thought you said .
17
that .
18
MR . ROWE :
You did say
A good part of the materials that
19
we received deal
20
summer 2000 cyber law course , and I would like you to
21
e xplain to us when that course started , what the course
22
was about and in brief detail fill us in on what all
?3
these E-mails that were exchanged between you and the
24
professor and you and the law school mean?
25
Wl
h the issue i n Professor Tratos'
THE WITNESS :
The course " as this past

41
summer .
MS . STORY :
2
3
It is actually 20001 because you
said 2000?
THE WITNESS :
MR . ROWE :
THE WITNESS :
It was .
I apologize .
was cyber law course .
course .
indicated
should be 2001 .
It was this past summer .
It
There was a paper due in the
I turned the paper in .
Professor Tratos had
someone had indicated to me that he had
10
indicated ln c la ss that he had asked if we would also
11
turn in an E-mail copy or a disk copy of the paper
12
because he was going to be traveling and would like to
13
load them onto his lap top and read them.
14
Unfortunately , I didn ' t turn ln a disk copy .
15
I wish I had .
I don ' t really have any excuse except to
16
say that I was taking
17
the paper was due .
he bar , you know , a week after
I just
Wait a minute .
What does taking
19
the bar exam have to do with -- what
oes that have to
20
do with anything?
21
submitted a draft, right , you gave us a copy , we have a
22
copy of a draft that you ultimately submitted to
18
24
MR . KELLY :
If you prepared a draft and you
Professor Tratos, cor rect?
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
Uh-huh .
Is it typed?

2300 W. Saha ra, Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89102
42
THE WI TNESS :
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
5
6
Uh-huh .
You have to say yes .
Yes .
I ' m assuming
you typed this on
your compute r?
THE WITNESS :
Yes -- we ll , I typed -- I can ' t
7 remember if I typed it e xclusivel y -- I don ' t think I

8 typed it exclusively on my computer .
I don ' t have a
9 printer at home , and I o f t en have to E-mail pro jects to

10 myself at school and print them out there , a nd
11
12
13
sometimes I wo rk on them at school if I have a class

nd I need to stay at school in between classes .
MR . KELLY :
As opposed to handwriting the
14 assignment , there was some -- eithe r a n E-mail or in

15 Word Perfect o r someway you entered this in some sor t
16
o f compute r o r some sort of mean s ,
right ?
It wa sn ' t
17 handwritten?
18
THE WITNESS :
19
MR . KELLY :
20
the time wa s spen
No .
I 'm trying to figure out if all
in preparing your document , wha t
21 difference does it make that you are ta king the Bar the
22
follo wing week have to do \;ith whether or not you took
23
the 30 seconds or less that it takes to downl oad it
24
onto a dis k or the five seconds it takes t o save it
25 onto the hard drive?

230 0 W. Sahara , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89102
43
What does the one have to do with the other
2 with the bar e xam?
You already did all the work .
3 did all the research .

4
You did all your outlining and
you made your draft .
THE WI TNESS :
MR . KELLY :
You
I can e xplain .
I f you said I couldn ' t do it
because I was taking the Bar , then -THE WITNESS :
That is not wha t I ' m saying .
9 I ' m saying I came to class and tu r ned the paper in and

10
four people sa w me and will attest to that , and I heard
11
somebody mention something about oh , do we need to turn
12
in an E-mail copy or a diskette , and somebody said I ' m
13 not sure , I think I might have heard something abou

14
15
that .
I though t well , boy , I had better do that ,
16 and then I forgot to do that .
It was n ' t a case of me
17 going to class knowing I needed to turn in this

18 diskette and saying you have the bar exam , I can ' t be
19 bothered with it .
20
MR . KELLY :
I n your E-ma ils to the professor
21 you were more concerned about whether or not this was

22 going to get onto a public board , that you wan ed to
23 main ain your anonymi ty?
24
THE \'lI TNE SS :
25
MR . KELLY:
That was another issue .

What was t he issue you had , the
ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVA DA - 702/382-8778

44
Bar examination , or were you more concerned about you
2 not wan ing it to be released to the public?

THE WITNESS :
It was t\;ofold .
One , I would
4 have preferred to hand 1n the disk , and two, I wa sn ' t

5 sure that it was - - two , I wasn ' t sure it was a
6 requirement and not a request that we hand in a disk .

7
I don ' t know exactly why .
I ' m not sure I knew why at
8 the time he wanted a disk , but I did know that he had

9 planned to post these papers on the Internet .
I think
10
it was my assumption that he wanted a disk so he could
11
load them onto the internet .

I had indicated to him that I prefer not to
12
13 have my work loaded onto the Internet simply because I
14 was taking the Bar that summer , and I didn ' t feel the
15 vlOrk was a very high quality because I felt the work
16
had suffered because of my preparation for the Bar , and
17
I didn ' t want a testament to that to be loaded onto the
18
Internet .
19
MS . STORY :
I thought you previously
20
testified that he wanted it so he could take it W1 h
21
him while he was traveling?
22
THE WITNESS :
That 1S what I learned later
-3 when this investigation started .

24
25
MS . STORY :
If your professor requests a copy
of your paper 1n an electronic format but doesn ' t

45
1 requlre it , lS that a significant dif fe rence in your

2 mind , and whe n does a request become a requirement from
3 a professor?
THE WITNESS :
5 will say that .
I think if -- I ' m not sure , I
I think if it was indicated in the
6 syllabus , I might lean more strongly tO'Nards calling it

7 a requirement .
8 ot hers .
Some professors are mo re lax than
It is hard to really know just how serious it
9 is not to turn in a disk copy when you did turn in a

10 hard copy of the paper .
11
12
13
MS . STORY :
Well , if your pro fessor requests
hat you do it -THE WITNESS :
I ' m sorry to interrupt .
Also
14 on the hard copy I turned in , I indi ca ted I ' m not

15 turning in a disk because I don ' t want this pla ced on
16 the Internet , and I think I might have said plea se let
17 me know if that is a problem .
18
MS . STORY :
You don ' t have a copy of that
i9 paper to show us to ay?

20
THE WITNESS :
:<1
MS . STORY :
22
?3
24
No .
Are you in the habit of retaining
copies of papers that you turn in?

THE WITNESS :
Gene ra lly I have a copy i n my
hard drive o r in some -- o r on a dj s k even because hard
25 drives die .
As mine did , they are prone to ei her

46
1 dying or breaking or getting corrupted .
I think I ha d
2 a copy on a disk o f th i s paper that I turned in .

3
In between the time I turned the paper ln and
4 Profe ssor Tratos conta ct ing me saying we didn ' t get

5 yo ur paper , I had moved residences twice so I think
6 that cont ribu ed to my lack of filing -- lack of
7 organization in this case .
Also , my car died so I was
8 wi t hout a car , and I wa s borrowing people ' s cars to

9 move so that didn ' t - - that got me kind of out of my
10 zone of o rgan ization t hat I might otherwise be In .
MS . STORY :
11
Where did you r etrieve this draft
12 that you fina ll y turned in to the profess or?

THE WITNESS :
13
I think I got this draft off my
14
Hotmail accou nt which I saved .
15
MR. ROWE :
16
THE WI TNESS :
~7
Where did you save it?

On my Hotma il .
It is an E-mail
acco unt .
18
MR . ROWE :
19
M~.
It is a server?
STORY :
It is an Internet thing , isn '
20 it?
THE WITNESS :
21
22 off a disk , but I
I don ' t remember if I got
hink I got it of f my Hotmai l
23 accou nt .
24
MR . ROWE :
Did you ever have --
25
THE WITNESS :
I have saved eve ry E-mail ,
ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382-8 778

47
1 personal E-ma il , I have had for the past five year s on

2 my Hotmail based server .
I don ' t know if i
is a
3 server , but it is an E-mail system .

DR . BROWN :
You indicated earlier when you
5 turned in the paper you heard people menti oning that

6 the professor would like to have it in electronic
7 format , and that wa s sort of when you heard that, and
8 then you said oh , I need to do t ha t .
9 you indicated on your paper
And then la ter
you actually indi cated
10 you weren ' t going to turn it in in electronic format

11 which would imply that you knew it considerably before
12 that .
THE WITNESS :
13
14
Well , I wrote it on my paper
that day .
15
DR . BROWN:
16
THE WITNESS :
17
MR . KELLY :
18 me concern abou
Handwrote it?
Yes , handwritten .
You know ,
he thi ng that causes
your veracity is the note t hat you
.L9 sent back to Professor Tratos , and you say -- you

20 stated my paper was a case note or case comment on
21
the Tasi ni v New Yor k Times case , I believe , was the
22 name .
"1
24
Now, jf I had to do the type of paper

requested by my professor , and we are talking abouL
25 just a shor
period of time , I would know e xactly what

48
name that I had to write several pages on .
2 wa s 15 pages and you had e x ceeded the 10
You said it
0
12 that was
requested .
telling , I thi nk , the case you discussed , and you have
to qual i fy it .
I wrote 15 you say , and then you are
THE WITNESS :
7 wrote that .
8
I don ' t unde r stand .

I do n ' t know e x actly why I
I think it might have bee n I wasn ' t sure
if it was New York Times versus Tasini or Tasini versus
9 New York Times .
This was eight wee ks after the paper
10
was due with an interven ing period including the Bar
11
e xam and a new semester .
12
13
MR . KELLY :
paper of this magni ude , a case s tud y that semester?
14
THE WI TNESS :
15
MR . KE LLY :
16
17
How many other courses required a
you take that summer?

THE WITNESS :
That s ummer seme ster?

Yes , sir .
Ho w many courses did
What was the other one?

Alternative dis pute r esolution
18 discussion .
19
MR . KELLY :
Did you have to do a paper of
20
this magnitude on a given case t hat came down from an
21
appellate court ?
22
23
24
25
THE WITNESS :
We had to do papers but not o n
a specific case .
MR . KELLY :
referring to .
I ' m familia r with what you are
I ' m asking did you do anything similar

49
to a 15 page paper outlining the pros and cons or
dissecting or analyzing Supreme Court decisions like
you did ln Professor Tratos course?

THE WITNESS :
I was studying eight subjects I
had never taken in law sch ool that summer to prepare
for the Bar , and that included dissecting a lot of
cases .
MR . KELLY :
9 on the panel .
You are talking to three lawyers
We ha v e all taken the Bar e xam .
10
all studied for the Bar e x am .
11
exams .
12
familiar wi th .
13
We have
I have taken two Bar
You are not telling me anything we are not
I ' m asking you specifically on a glven
14
course , and last summer you took alternate dispute
15
resolution and you took cyber law .
In one you had a
16 paper due , 10 to 12 pages , and on the other - - did you

17
have a paper of equal --
18
THE WITNESS :
I would say so , yes .
In fact ,
19
the paper in cyber law was worth 40 percent of the
20
grade .
21
the magnitude that it would seem you are implying it
22
was of .
23
There was no final e x am as there was in cyber law .
24
25
It wasn ' t worth all the grade so it wasn ' t of
The paper ln ADR were worth all the grade .
MR . KELLY :
You had a paper that dealt with a
case as opposed to a fact situation , two sets of facts

50
where you had to come together and come up with a
2 solution?
That is an alternate dispute resolution ,
3 com1ng up wi th a solution between two sets of facts ,

4 and it has nothing to do with a nalyzing a case from the
5 US Supreme Court as you did with Professor Tratos?
THE WITNESS :
I can ' t honestly r emember what
7 the papers were about in alternative dispute

8 resolution .
MR . KELLY :
MR . ROWE :
10
11
Thank you .
Did you ever ask Mr . Destefano or
Mr . Horne or Mr . Bourke to communicate with Professor
12 Tratos as to what you claim they sa w, and that is that

13
you turned in your paper?

THE WITNESS :
14
15
up .
I didn ' t ask them to call him
I asked them if they remembered me turni ng in the
16 paper .
I told Mr . Tratos that at least Mr . Destefano
17
and Ms . Amy Jones had told me that they would be happy
18
to talk to Mr . Tratos about this .
19
to con act them before starting an official
20
investigation .
21
MR . ROWE :
I asked Mr . Tratos
Why would it be up to the
22 professor to contact them?
It 1S your course
73
requirement to turn in the paper .
24
THE WITNESS :
If I knew that
it
would have --
25 that I needed to get these people to sig n an affidavit

51
1 and submit it to Professor Tra os , I would have .

2
MR . ROWE :
Here is .,hat I ' m thinking .
3 think I ' m going to get you to ask these people to sign

4 an affidavit or submit a letter to the director of
5 admissions stating what you told Professor Tratos they
6 would state in your September 10 E-mail .
7
THE WITNE SS :
MR . ROWE :
Okay .
That is , they did ,
In
fact , see
9 you turn in a paper?

10
THE WI TNESS :
Uh -huh .
I "'ill tell you at
11 this point I don ' t know if all those people in there

12 you mentioned William Horne , Craig Bour ke, and I can ' t
13 remember , did I indi cate in there that I said they saw
14 me turn in the paper?
15
MR . ROWE :
You talked about commenting at the
16 time that the paper was turned in to Horne and Bourke

17 and that the usual -- let me quote your E-mail , the
18 typical procedures for retaining anonymity in t he
19 grading proce ss were not being followed , and you
20 indicated not once but twice that Destefano wa s a
21
police officer , and he would attest that he did , in
22
fact , see me turn ln a paper .
23
THE WITNESS :
That rings true to me because I
2 4 don ' t remember William Horne or era i 9
Boury.e s.Jying
25 they saw me turn in the paper , but I do remember

2300 W. Sahara , Suite 770 , La s Vegas , NV 89102
52
1 talking to them about the anonymity aspect .

MR . ROWE :
3 further than that .
I ' m not going to take it any

I ' m going to tell you if you have
4 questions about my request , then you should ask them ,

5 but I would speci fically refer you to your
6 September 10 , 200 1 E-mail to Professor Tratos \; here you
7 talked about these conve r sations and these people
8 observing you on the day that the paper was due , and ,
9 in fact , you say I am sure that on the day the paper
10 was due that you had these conversations and that one
11 or more of t hese individuals wit nessed you turning in a
12 paper on Tasini versus Ne w York Times or whatever your
13 pape r was called .
14
I would li ke for you to supply that
15
information in the affidavit format I have requested to
16 the director of admissions for our review .

THE WITNES S :
17
18
19
So have Amy Jones and Mike
Destefano .
MR . ROWE :
And if you say there are any other
20
folks that may have seen you turn in your paper on the
21
subject that you have given us this outli ne on , then
22
that is fi ne too .
THE
24
WI~NESS:
Would you like me to ask the
people who I possibly -- who I ha d conversations with
2 5 about the anonymity but \;ho might not have seen me turn
53
1n the paper who saw me present 1n class that day and
2 talking about the anonymity and the reason why or for

3 that matter the reason why I might not be turning in a
4 electronic copy?
MR . ROWE :
Mr . Coughlin , let me tell you
6 again that it is your burden to convince us that you

7 possess the requisite moral c haracter and fitness .
We
8 are troubled by your application .
We are having some
9 difficulty with your application .
If you believe that
10
these people can corroborate any o f your statements
11
regarding your claim that you turned in a paper but not
12
the disk to Professor Trat os , I ,lOuld suggest you get
13 those statements in affidavit form submitted to the

14 director of admissions , a nd we will give as long as you
15 request when we are finished today to keep this record
16 open so we can receive them .
17
Is there any question about my request?
18
THE WITNESS :
19
MS . STORY :
No .
I ' m curious about the ultimace
20 outcome of this conduct investigation .

21
22
\'ihat ultimately
happened?
THE WITNESS :
It wa s submitted to the Student
23 Judicial Affai rs Officer and Mr . Phil Burns , and I

24
25
believe about two to three months later -MR . KELLY :
What happened?
You said t wo to

54
three months la er?

THE WITNESS :
Two to three months later -- it
would probably be easiest for me to do a chronology .
On the 15th of July I turned in the paper, and then on
the 7th of September I was notified that they didn ' t
get the paper .
month thereafter an official investigation was starting
with Mr . Phi l Burns .
Then some time thereafter , about a
Then around Decembe r 5 , I wa s notified that
10
the i n vestigation had found the re was no wro ngdoi ng but
11
that it was still up to Mr . Tratos as to what my grade
12
would be in the class given that I didn ' t turn in an
13
electron ic copy , and Mr . Tratos glve me a passing grade
14
in the class , and I re ce ived my JD from UNLV .

MS . STORY :
15
16
i n vestigation in anyway?
THE WITNESS :
17
18
wi th him .
'9
E- mail addresses.
20
parti c ipatio n .
21
Did you participate in Mr . Burn ' s
I answered questions and I met
I gave him Amy Jones and Mic hael Destefano ' s

I believe tha t wa s the e x tent of my
MR . KELLY :
Was there any reason you didn ' t
22
take Professor Tratos ' offe r t o try and retrieve the
23
paper off of your h ard drive?
24
25
THE WITNESS :
I did Hant to take his offer ;
however , my original understanding of hi s offer

2300 W. Sa hara , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89102
55
differed from his contention o f what the of fer
2 included .
3
Originally I understood he was volunteering
4 to pay for the data retrieval on my hard
r1ve .
I for
5 my own reasons wanted to get a data retriever performed

6 on my hard drive and looked into getting it done and
7 had contacted several businesses around town .
None of
8 them were able to do it , and that included Best Buy ,

9 Electronic Sto r e and some other stores whose name isn '
10
familiar to me that I can ' t remember .

They all recommended that On Track of
11
12
California was the only company that generally could be
13
able to do a data retrieval of this magnitude given
14
that the readi ng arm on the hard drive was broken and
15
the mother board had fried due to a power surge of some
16
sort .
17
18
19
20
My understanding was that Professor Tratos

was volunteering to pay for this , and I was happy about
hat because I wanted to get it done regardless .
MS . STORY :
You weren ' t necessarily
21
interested in retrieving your paper?
22
other reason?
23
24
THE WITNESS :
You had some
I was interested in retrieving
my paper , but I was also interested in getting the rest
25 of the data , my personal papers and things of that sort

56
that had been stored on the hard drive .

Then , to the best of my recollecti on what
2
3
happened Has I indicated great , let ' s do it .
be sure that it is on there , you know , I might have
stored it on a disk , but let ' s do it .
between 2 and $7 , 000 , a n d then he indicated that he was
only willing to pay for the one file .
It costs $5 , 000 ,
I contacted On Track , and they said they did
8
9
I can ' t
not perform one file at a time and they only did an
10
encire hard drive recovery .
11
spend on it and - MR . ROWE :
12
I didn ' t have $5 , 000 to
How did you contact or communicate
13
with this company that was going to offer the service
14
of retrieving of information off of a disabled hard
15 drive?
THE WITNESS :
16
17
18
phone .
I know I spoke with them on the
I also might have written them some E-mai1s .

MR . ROWE :
Since you saved every E-mail that
19
you have in your Hotmail account ,
20
be contained in your account?
21
THE WITNESS :
No .
those -mails would
I have saved every
22
personal E-mail tha
I have had of correspondence
23
bet",een myself and friends and family members and have
24
to get rid of a certain amount of E-mails , otherwise ,
25
your account gets full , and this can include -- the

57
sort of things you have to erase are papers or sample
E-mail o r things that I just don ' t have space for
anymore .
MR . ROWE :
Do you have any document tha
you
can present to us including your long distance phone
bill that indicates your communications with this hard
drive restoration company?
8
9
THE WITNE SS :
I ' m not sure .
I might .
I will
certainly check .
10
MR . ROWE :
11
I would like
It is your application , sir .

0
ask you about Wednesday,
12 October 10 , 2001 and why in the space of about 30

13 minutes you sent two E-mails to Professor Tratos .
14
was at 1 : 27 and one was at 1 : 40 .
15
16
Are you familiar with these t wo E-mails that

I ' m referring to?
17
18
19
20
21
THE WITNESS :
different .
I ' m no
a ware if they are
Are they the same E-mail s ent twice?

MR . ROWE :
We will mark the October 10 , 200 1,
1 : 27 E-mail as Exhibit 2 , and the one that was sent on

h e same date at 1 : 40 as Exhibit 3 .
22
(Exhibits 2-3 marked)
23
(Whereupon , a recess wa s taken . )
24
25
One
MR . ROWE :
Mr . Coughli n , have you had a
chance to review the two E-mails from October 10 that

58
have been marked as Exhibits 2 and 3?
THE WITNESS :
MR . ROWE :
Yes .
What was gOlng through your mind
at the time that you sent these two E-mails to
Professor Tratos?
I ' m offended by them to be honest with you .
TH E WITNESS :
Yeah.
Well , I don ' t blame you .
I 'm not happy with them.
stressed , you know , was havi n g a lot of situational
I think I was really
10
stress .
My parents were going through a divorce right
11
then, and let me preface this by every time I have told
12 anybody this , I have been g r eeted with well, you are

13
just bl aming other people o r I feel no sympathy for
14
you , so I ' m n ot asking you for sympathy , I ' m simply
15
trying to illustrate that this isn ' t my normal state of
16 mind .
17
18
This was -- the whole country wa s kind of like
this at this point .

DR . BROWN :
I ' m n ot an attorney obviously ,
19 but I would imagine that there are certainly stressful

20
times in the contex t of being an attor n ey preparing
21
briefs or preparing for trial or preparing how to
22
e x amine an e x pert or wha tever ln context of all the
23
things that you have to do , and so I would only see
24
stress levels going up in the future , they are not
25 going to go down from being in law school .

2300 W. Sahara , Suite 770 , Las Veaas. NV Rqln/
59
THE WITNESS :
I don ' t know that I would a gree
2 wi th that .
MR . ROWE :
No dis r espect to you ,
4 Mr . Coughlin , I think you will find -- I hope you can

5 remember your response to Dr . Brown ' s questio n a nd
6 reflect on it 1n ten years after pra c ice .
7 you can do that .
Go ahead .
I just hope
You will fi nd that the
8 opposite is true , at least in my e xperience .

At any rate r espond to Dr . Brown .
10 disrespect to you .
No
I ' m just amused at my own rea ction .
11
THE WITNESS :
12
MR . ROWE :
13
THE WITNESS :
Well
If you have one .

I hesitate t o really tell
14 anybody what was going o n or why I was so stressed ou t

15 because I have been g r eeted with such , you know , apathy
16 by everyone I have talked to in conjunction with this ,
17
but , you know,
I was put in a situation where
18 financially I was cutoff immediately , and I had no c ar ,

19 my car had died , and I had to try t o get on with my
20 life and fi nd a way to eat and a place to live , and I
21 had just gotten out of a two year relati onship so it
22 was a stressful time .
23
MR . KELLY:
2 4 stress?
I look at
What were you doing f o r your

hese two doc ument s , the o ne at
25 1 : 27 and the one at 1 : 40 , and the first sentence of

60
1 each kind of begin the same way , I take you up on your
knew what you

2 of fer , and I ' m almost wondering if you
Were you taking
3 were doing whe n you wrote the second .
4
medicine?
Were you taking any drugs?
Were you
5 drinking?
6
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
THE WITNES S :
No .
No thing?
I ' m a little conf sed by these
9 two E-mails .
MR . KELLY :
10
So hopefu lly you understand why
11 we might be .
THE vIl TNESS :
12
13
They were so close in time a nd
I t hink I wasn ' t even sure - - they are different 1n
14 content .
15 got sent .
I wasn ' t even su r e , I think , if one of them

I vaguely remembe r that day something
16 happening with the computer because I wouldn ' t normally

17 send somebody , you know, two E-mails that are nearly
18 identical so from my recollection , what happened here
19 was I was writing an E-mail , and I didn ' t intend to
20 send it in one of these forms at least probably - - I

21 can ' t be sure which , and somehow it got sent which
22 occasionall y happens with E-mails .
You will hit enter
?3 on accident and it will send the E-mail .

24
,5
I guess that
is why there is two E-mails .

I can understand why it would be confusing ,
61
but I
happen before .
doesn ' t , but to me it indicates one o f them is a
revision , and o ne of the m is what I intended to send .
I might not have been aware that o ne of them got sent .
hink anybody who has used E-mails has had that

It stops in mid-sentence , this one
MR . KELLY :
They both end with rather
sarcastic have a nice day , Mark .
When you begin wi th
Dear Mr . Tratos a n d ea r lier it was Professor .
from Professor to Mr . to have a nice day , Mark , in t h e
You wen t
10 course of several wee ks .

11
THE WI TNESS :
12
MR. KELLY :
Yes .
Can I go to the draft f o r a
give me an idea and
13
second o f the paper that yo u
14
help me understand , and this 1S September 13 , and you
15
finally sen t what I ' m gat h e r ing to be a draft .
16
know what I ' m talking about?
17
THE WITNESS :
18
know what you are talking about .
19
MR. KELLY :
20
THE WITNESS :
Yeah , of the p a per .
Do y ou
Yes , I
Tell me where t hat came from .

Like I said earlier , I think I
21
e ither found a disk in my personal belongings o r I
22
r et rieved it from somewhere o n my Hotmail account whi ch
23
subsequently has had quite a bit of it e rased cont rary
24
to what I wo uld like .
25
Unfo rtunate l y , Ho tmail accounts accords you

62
1 about 2000 kilobytes or somethi ng worth of storage

2 space for free , and if you get a s pam or somebody sends
3 you a large attachment , it takes up s pace , and Hotmail
4 wi ll sta rt to erase your messages o r erase the ones you
5 have saved to make r oom for the new ones .
MR . KELLY :
This document was retrieved from ,
7 you believe , maybe -8
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
I think it was Ho tmail .

The document itself , the actual
10 te xt of the paper , the draft wa s prepared ove r what

11 period of time?
THE WITNESS :
12
Not very long at all .
It was
" 3 probably less than a week .
14
MR . KELLY :
This is a six - page draft?
15
THE WI TNESS :
I think that would amount to
16 more than si x pages once you put it in double space and

17
take it out of this E- mail .

MR . KELLY :
18
19
Fine .
Let ' s sa y 12 page s .
I 'm
just as king , this document is wha t you wor ked off of
20 for a final draft?
This was a preliminary draft or
Ll what?
22
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
24
Yeah , preliminary draf .

Was it a preliminary draft that
wa s to be submitted , o r was it a wo rking draft LhdL you
2 5 were wo rk i ng off o f to prepare a final draft?

ASSOCI ATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382-8778
2300 W. Saha ra , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 89102
63
THE WITNESS :
1
2 draft .
The latter .
I would have never submitted this in a class .
3 This has inappropriate la nguage .

4 booked .
It is not blue
It is not spell checked .

MR . KELLY :
It was a working
Other than that , whi ch you are
6 correct , I ' m interested in the statement - - these

7 aren ' t numbered so it is hard f o r me to highlight so
8 you can read it but it goes -- it goes wi th the
9 decision , and you see on paragraph C where it begins
10 finally, it appears that Justice Stevens is wi lling
11 venture into this hearing ground of case law to help

12 support his view on what the underlying policies of
13
copyright law are .

Now, I am t oo lazy to actually look up the
14
15 case and see if it actually says this and says it in a

16 way that Stevens is setting this up , but , mind you , I
17 am living at the poverty line in Las Vegas and don ' t
18 have some Ivy league kid to be my fetch boy .
19
Is all that --
20
THE WITNESS :
Li
It
1S
just amusing of a law
student typing a paper that I didn ' t thin k anybody was
22 going to read .
23
MR . KELLY :
This is a preliminary draft you
2 4 said?
25
THE WI TNESS :
Uh - huh .

64
MR . KELLY :
To be used by you for a more
2 final draft?
THE WITNESS :
Or just for my personal , you
4 knO\oJ , remembrance of how I felt at that time about law

5 school and writing papers , and looking back o n ten
6 years and kind of thinking oh , well , to read it like a
7 diary almost , to make the paper interesting to me .
MS . STORY:
I thought you said you didn ' t
9 save your papers because you didn ' t have room on your
10 E-mails to save your personal - THE WITNESS :
11
I would save something that had
12 some color in it li ke this .

13
14
DR . BROWN :
How many hours wou ld it take to
take this level of draft to the final paper that would
15 have been something you would have submitted to the

16 professor?
17
THE WITNESS :
Well , something to get just a
18 passing grade , I don ' t know, maybe five more hours to

19 get a passing grade but to get , you know, wha t I ,",ould
20 normally try for , I would probably spend qui te a
21 substa ntial more amount of time on it .
22
DR . BROWN :
23 been worth fi ve
" ~.'J rs
I ' m wonderi ng if it would have

of rewriting through tha t week of
24
September to clear up the issue?
25
THE WITNESS :
I ' m so rry .
I don ' t understand .

65
DR . BROWN :
This draft was -- you E-mai1ed
2 this draft to the professor , right?

3
THE WITNES S :
DR . BROWN :
Uh-huh .
And you are saylng that it is not
5 In a format that woul d be acceptable to be turned in to

6 a professor so I ' m wo ndering what kept you from
7 spending five hours t o get it in an acceptable form In
8 order to turn in the paper , have the class finished ,
9 get your grade a nd move on with life .
THE WITNESS :
10
11
Well , I think I indicated In
the heading to t his that I didn ' t -MR . KELLY :
12
You didn ' t want to redact it
13 because you thought it wo uld be a code violation , is

14
that wha t you are talking about?
15
THE WITNE SS :
Ye s .
I had offered -- I had
16 i ntimated to Professor Tratos that I would welcome the

17 opportunity to do the paper over or to fix this one o r
18 to do whatever it too k to come to some resolution of
19 this matter .
20
21
MS . STORY :
that wha t you sa id ?
22
THE WITNESS :
23
MS . STORY :
24
25
Did you say intimated to him , is
Yeah ,
I think that lS a word .
I wa s wondering how you
intimated .
THE WITNES S :
I think by E- mail .
It is more

66
1 wha
2 else?
can I do to m ke this right?
Can I do some hing
Is there any way we can res olve this?
I don ' t
3 kn ow that it was an intimation of sorts , but there is

4 an E-mai l of something similar to that .
MS . STORY :
Did you ever talk wi th Professor
6 Tra tos face-to-face about this problem?

THE WITNESS :
No , not that I can remember .
8 wo nder -- do you have any of the -- I don ' t know what

9 you have .
Professor Tratos and I
I think we came to
10 a resolution of this , and some of my ugliness in these

11
papers , I think , was hopefully m1 igated by some of the
12 apologies in later correspondence we had , and I don ' t

13 know if you have those .
14
MS. STORY :
15
THE WITNESS :
Do you have those?
I think I do e xcept
16 unfo rtunately some of my E-mails did get erased , you
17 know.
MR . KELLY :
18
Just so you understand , in ans,,,er
19 to your question you said you don ' t know ,,,hat we have ,
20 what we have is what you pro vided and wha
21 provided .
the school
We have nothing other than that , and so I
22 wan t you to know e xactly what we are looking at .
We
23 are trying to show you things that we are highlighting .
24
THE WITNESS :
I just don ' t know -- the school
25 provided these , and they must have go tten these from

67
Professor Tratos , and I don '
included with these the apologies in later
know if Professor Tratos
3 corresponden ces that he and I had .

DR . BROWN :
The last E-mail as far as date
5 goes is the one that is marked Exhibit 3 , October 10 .

6
If there were later E-mails , they are not copies .

THE WITNESS :
There was probably five later
E-mails between he and I .
Ie ters to both Dean Smith and Dean LeFrance .

MS . STORY :
10
11
Are those apologies that you
formulated on your o wn motivation?

THE WITNESS :
12
13
There was later apology
Yeah .
They were shortly after
these , I think .
14
MS . STORY :
15
THE WITNESS :
Can you -They were before the resolution
16 of the judicial matter too which d oes n ' t necess~rily

17
cut in my favor , I guess , because if I had written them
18
after I had been acquited , I guess , that would be
19
better .
MS . STORY :
20
21
22
Can you provide copies of what
you have?
THE WITNESS :
I will try .
I guess I assumed
23
if the law school was going to provide these copies
24
that they would provide everything and would provide a
25
comple te account .
68
MR . KELLY :
I would suggest that part of your
2 problem he r e today is your assumption that somebody

3 else is goi ng to ta ke care of stuff , stuff that is your
4 obligation .
5
Let me go back for a second .
You know,
6 clearly we started talking about what was going on

7 around this pe ri od of time , writ ing t he t wo E-mails
8 within a short period of 30 , 40 minutes , and you
9 clearly had an emotional scene as we sat he re today .
10 You have the impression that the stress that you are
11 under at that time is greater than wha t you might
12 experience as an attorney , and I ' m wondering if you
13 have any indications within your own frame of reference
14
to know when you need he lp , when you need t o a s k
15 somebody f o r help , whether it be a professional pe r son

16 like a doctor in tryi ng to s l ow yourself down if that
17 is what is going on o r to tal k to a colleague to get
18 some help because the \Vall s are coming in a little bit .
19
20
Do
you have anyway of being able to realize
that you are getting to the point of being over l oaded
21 and that you need to defuse a nd you need some mechani s m

22
to do that because if a l ot o f this is stemming from
23 what was going on with every hing around you , your

24
family , your girlfriend , moving , your car breaking
25 down , I mean , we all have our limited capabil i y of

69
1 handling stress , and I ' m wondering if you get past this

2 procedure , what d o you have in pla ce in t he future to
3 help you get through a stressful situa ti on rather tha n
4 r eso rting to ch ildish E- mails that I ' m gathering today
5 is not what you are proud of .
What do you have in pla ce for something in
7 the futu re to deal with stress?

THE WITNESS :
Well , finan c ially , I would be
9 mo r e ready to ask people for help .

MR . KELLY :
10
Explain that .
Are you talking
about i f you are late on a bill or you don ' t have the
12 money fo r rent , yo u are capable then to sa y hey , I need
13 $300 , $500 , a thousand dollars to pay the r e nt?
11
14
THE WITNESS :
15
MR . KELLY :
Yeah .
How about the o ther issue s where
16 you feel absolutely ove rwhelmed with wha t is going on ,

17 you ha~e a brief due , you have clients who are
18 commanding that you call them back , you have a
19 girlfriend who is nagging you , how do you cope with
20
that?
How a re yo u going t o deal wi th it?
21
the gym ?
22
THE WITNE SS :
23
MR . KELLY :
24
THE WITNESS :
25
MR . KELLY :
Do you go to
Yeah .
Do you drink?
Occasionally .
Wo uld you be apt to take a couple
ASSOC IATED REPORTERS Of NEVADA - 702/382-8778

70
of beers to try to chill out?

THE WITNESS :
2
3
I Houldn ' t say I would use
alcohol as a -MR . KELLY :
Would you run -- I notice you
were part of the Church of Scientology .
frequent member of that group?
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
9
10
Are you a
No .
Do you have any other religious
affiliation where you can call on something beside

yourself?
11
THE WITNESS :
12
MR . KELLY :
I have friends , you know .

Do you see -- I ' m trying to
13 determine if you a re attributin
all of these issues
14
that you are going through at various times in your law
15
school education to a lot of e x ternal factors , stress ,
16 and I ' m asking you to help me get past my deliberations

17
in this matter and if you have something in place to
18
help you in the future?
19
If you are licensed as an attorney how are
20
you gOlng to deal with stress on a daily basis , which
21
the members of this panel recognlze as a common factor ,
22
what are y ou going to do?
23
24
25
THE WITNESS :
One , I would get paid , you
know , get paid to be an attorney .

MR . KELLY :
You would get paid .
That is a

good 51gn , good start .
THE WITNESS :
Wha t else?
Maybe some anger management
3 counseling .
Were you angry during this period
MR . KELLY :
5 of time?
6
THE WITNESS :
MR . KELLY :
Very much .
I d o n ' t mean to get in y our area .
I ' m trying to see if there is someway that we can feel
comfortable that what y ou have demonstrated in the past
10
wi ll not reoccur in the future , and if you are
11
at ributing a lot of it
12
identifying as stress , I want to make sure you can deal
13
with it in the future.
0 areas that you are
14
DO you want to take a break?
15
THE WITNESS :
16
MR . KELLY :
Off the record .
(Whereupon , a recess was taken . )
17
18
Yeah .
MR . ROWE :
Zach , I ' m going to be informal in
19 my address to you because we are con cerned for you .

20
has nothing to do with t he application
21
just concerned for you today , and for that reason , '..Ie
22
are going to adjourn the proceedings , and we will
23
reconvene when you are able to get some of the
24
information
25
er say .
We are
hat we would like to see .
I think
It
he record should reflect that --
ASSOCIATED REPORTERS Of NEVADA - 702/382 - 8778

72
1 Dr . Brown , maybe you can phrase this better than I , but

2 Zach has been quite emotional and we have taken a
3 prolonged recess here , and I don ' t believe that Zach
4 has been able to collec
himself sufficiently to
5 proceed any further this afternoon .

6
Doctor , if I ' m overstepping my bounds here,
7 please let me know.

8
DR . BROWN :
MR. ROWE:
That is a fair statement .

I would like you to -- if you can ,
10
I want you to wri te down some information that we would
11
like to have , and then we wi ll get back together again
12 when we can schedule a time that is convenient for you

13
14
and for all of us .

Then maybe - - I ' m poslng this ln the way of a
15 qu estion to the director , I know I will be back down o n

16 the 29th , and I believe so will Ms . Story , and I ' m not
17 sure if Kevin has been summoned for tha
hearing or not
18 on the 29th of March .

19
MS . EICHMAN :
I imagine the only problem
20 would be Dr . Brown because I know he is only available

21
in the morning , and I think he is scheduled for that
22 morning hearing , a nd I don ' t thin k he would be

23 available in the afternoon .
24
DR . BROWN :
I have Mental Health Court
25 hearings every Friday afternoon .
We are generally

73
1 through by 3 : 00 so if we wanted to reconvene in the

2 late afternoon , I would certainly be willing to come
3 back over and do tha t .
4
MR . KELLY :
THE WI TNESS :
MR . ROWE :
7 April .
Are you living here still?

Yes .
I recall being back in early
The point for you is that we will get together
8 as soon as we possibly can and discuss this with you

9 further .
Here is what I would like to request that you
10 provide between today and the time that we get back

11 together .
12
We want you to find a copy of the police
report of the incident that led to your arrest in
13 October of 2001 .
14
I have noted in here that question 13 , and I
15 will tell you wha t it says .
Question 13 asks you to
16 list people for references , and I didn ' t see any

17
18
19
20
reference letters .
Have we received any of those?
MS . EICHMAN :
We have a couple that came with
the original a ppl ication .

MR . ROWE :
I didn ' t see them in my packet .
21
If that is the case , then you don ' t need to worry about
22
that , but if you have any others you would like to
23
submi t , you may do so .
24
25
We have already talked about and I think your

notes should reveal we would like to see affidavits or
ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382 8778
74
1 sl-lorn statements from pers ons that you knol-l that

2 witnessed either your comments at the time of your
3 final paper o r that saw you turn it in .
You heard Ms . S ory ' s request that you
5 provide copies of any subsequent E-mails to October 10 ,

6 which are the t wo that you have in front of you , and
7 for lack o f a better term, I will call those the

8 apology E-mails to and f r om Trat os , and I understand
9
that I heard you say there were some to LeFrance as
10 well.
11
THE WITNESS :
12
MR . ROWE:
Yeah , LeFrance and Dean Smith .
I think those would be helpful to
13 us .
14
I know we have t alked about this , but we need
15 a copy of the t r a nscript .

16 fu ndamental thing .
That is sort of a
You need to show a transcript to
17 show you graduated , and we still don ' t have it .
Have
18 you rece i ved o ne?

19
THE WITNESS :
20
MR . ROWE :
21
22
Yes .
Let ' s make s ure we get a copy of
he transcript because we haven ' t seen that .

MR . KELLY :
I am also going to give
23 Ms . Eichma n the name of three lawyers .
You c an choose
24 one o f those o r you can get someone else , but these

25 three lawyers I will have contacted and they will have
75
agreed t o represen
would urge you to take advantage of talking ,"ith one of
those .
that I have already talked to and I will call her
you on a pro bono basis , and I
You can take your choice , and I will give three
5 either today or Monday with people who I think are

6 qualified to help you through this process .
When y ou come back , they will be able to give
you some guidance as to how best to conclude these
9 proceedings .
MR . ROWE :
10
Thank you , Mr . Kelly .
I was going
11
to talk with you and the director about that .
12
you volunteered that .
13
14
I ' m glad
Ms . Story, do you have any [u c ther c ommen t s

that you would like to make?
MS . STORY :
15
I r eally -- no , I don ' t have
16 anything right now.

17
MR . ROWE :
18
DR . BROWN :
19
MR . ROWE :
Dr . Brown?
Not presently .
Zach , let me leave you with this
20
thought .
I t is something I started to tell you ,"hen I
21
came to get you in the restroom .
22
applican ts after they have been admitted .
We often \-Jork with

We have a
23 great deal of resources that we can call upon to refer

24
you to , and we would like to see you ta ke Mr . Kelly up
25
on his offer and speak to one of the attorneys that he

76
1S
going to recommend to you .
Keep that in mind .
With that , I think we will be adjourned for
3 the day .
My apologies to Dean Morgan , in fact , I think
4 I \-Jill go out a nd talk with him myself .

5
(Whereupon , the proceeding
concluded at 11 : 30 a . m. )
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
III
77
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2 STATE OF NEVADA
55 .
3 COUNTY OF CLARK
I , Donna E. Mize , Certified Court Reporter,
5 do hereby certify :
That I reported ln shor hand (Stenotype) the
7 proceedings had in the above-entitled matter at the

8 place and date indicated .
That I thereafter transcribed my said
10 shorthand notes into typewriting , and that the

11 typewritten transcript is a complete , true and accurate
12 transcription of my said shorthand notes .
13
IN WITNESS I.HEREOF, I have set my hand in my
14 office ln the County of Clark , State of Nevada , this 13

15 day of March , 2002 .
16
17
~~~M;;~R
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
675
III
III
III
III
III
III
2300 W. Sahara , Suite 770 , Las Vegas , NV 8 102
of Hearing
Rc: Character And Fitness
30 23:24 27:23 42 :2
3 57:12 68:8 76:7
300 69:13
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addresses 54:19
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adjourn 71 :22
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Amy 50:1752:1754
admissible 14:2
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Admissions 2: 10 8: 9 anger 71:2
24:17 26:7 51:5 52:1 angry 71:4
6 53: 14
anonymity 43:23 51:
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8 52:1,25 53:2
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answer 3:25 4: 1 8: 1
adrenalin 15:20,25
29:19 11:11 12:6,16
advance 4:14 31:18
40:1266:18
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answered 54: 17
advice 13: 12
answering 12:8
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anybody
29:21 33: 1
advocacy 20:5
1 58:1259:1461:1
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63:21
affidavit 50:25 51:4
anymore 5: 19 28: 7
52:15 53:13
57:3
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68:19
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apathy 59: 15
afford 10:22
afternoon 35:5
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agree 59: 1
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allow 7:25 11 :3 15:2
apologies 66: 12 67:
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apologize 4: 14 41:5
apologized 14:11
apology 67:8 74:8
Apparently 14:21
APPEARANCES 2: 1
appears 26: 16 35: 17

63:10
appellate 48:21
applicant 3:124:19
6:13 8:4 9:8 13:8
applicants 75:22
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Pngc I
llepOI1Cd of Nevada
Of Hearing
Re: Character A.nd
6:6,23 H:81~I;sulmi
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Re: Character And Fitnes4
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Page 14
Re: Character And
Paae IS

3 1 02 Character and Fitness Hearing Transcript Coughlin State Bar of Nevada Ocr

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3 1 02 Character and Fitness Hearing Transcript Coughlin State Bar of Nevada Ocr

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1

THE STATE BAR OF NEVADA

BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON MORAL CHARACTER AND FITNESS

6 COMMITTEE ON MORAL Cf1.ARACTER

REPORTER' S TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

Taken on Friday , March 1, 2002

At 600 East Charleston Boulevard

Las Vegas , Nevada

DONNA E . MIZE , CCR NO . 675

ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382 -8 778

LORI STORY , Esq .

PATRICE J . EICHMAN, ESQ .

ASSOCIATED REPORTERS OF NEVADA - 702/382 -8 778

FRIDAY , MARCH 1 , 2002 , LAS VEGAS , NEVADA

Good morning , Mr . Coughlin .

4 name is Michael Rowe , and I ' m the chairman of the State

On my immediate right is Dr . Greg Brown .

8 my immediate left is Ms . Lori Story , and on my far lef

we mark a copy of the notice of formal hearing as the

first e xhibit and present that to the applicant .

you take a look at that notice .

I got it in the mail .

Tnat is the notice which you are

Mr . Coughlin , let me tell you

a court reporter for a long

time that you need to say yes or no .

23 according to my wife , they can ' t hear your head rat Ie

when you shake it and uh-huhs and uh-uhs are hard to

hear and they are hard to report so if you would answer

1 audibly and clearly so the reporter can get your answer

I would like you to refer to the scope

6 committee is conce rned about your character and fit ness

12 have questions of you , and you may be in the middle of

If you wil l note under the paragraph relati ng

18 to the procedures you will see that the burden is upon

You are entitled

22 also to have counsel represent you at this hearing , and

Were you a ware that you could have an

1 attorney here to represent you?

Well , I read this and my

3 understanding of it was that I could hire an attorney ,

I was a ware , yes .

Do you wish to proceed this

8 morning , Mr. Coughlin , without counsel here to

I don ' t have any choice .

Let me clarify that for you .

you request it , sir , we would be -- I can only speak

for myself , but I believe the committee would be

amenable to a continuance of this matter for you to

have the time needed to retain counsel to represent

you , if you request it .

If you don ' t request it , we

I thi nk I would like to proceed

both because , you know , anymore cost that would be

incurred i n getting a continuance , I would like to

avoid and because , you know , I just intend to be

forthcoming with you , not that if I had a lawyer I

Mr . Coughli n , let me finish with

the procedure and then I will ask you to be s worn and ,

1 believe me , you wil l be provided with any opportunity

2 to make any statements and offer any testimony ,

In fact , that is part of the notification , that

5 you may offer such witnesses in support of your

Do you understand that?