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Heres the problem right cant theres Im having really hard

time getting closure on this Right And maybe its because

Youre doing youre not convincing UTfi so do you need me to like

step in and adjudicate

dont know what need mean its..

The amended proposal was that owners can have branch

Right

productions

Thats the current

proposal

Thats where was with dont know..

going it anyway

So whats the reaction to that been

havent gotten any mean sent that mail back to the group got

no feedback after the

All right who are the main naysayers now that dont like the
right way

its... Jamie is one

J.G

J.G who else

Those are the naysayers

OK those two you you thats right youre one of the two You and

urn and you lets have meeting just on that OK

The problem
you dont whether
is the client the client is
represented

or not

ci If
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care if
they have some expert opinion on CBS But not necessarily

for the of
purpose

being ...

Right OK

Lets do this soon..

Yeah theres an advan ok yeah lets do it..

Youre going to schedule that

Ill do that

OK Thatd be great

More

Well there was one part of the argument which is that possession is

90% of the law

Whats that mean

It means that if we have people checking in their stuff if the

Rhapsody board is
living with us in on branch and then
repository

they decide they dont like us someday

Well theres another

guys dont
argument there Just because these

want the standard development model to be owner off and

every goes

creates all these gazillions of branches doesnt mean Rhapsody cant

have branch Right

OK

mean if believe the if the JG contingent wins Im going to

speculate that doesnt mean there will be zero branches for the entire

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life of this tree itll mean they will be few they will all have reason

that will be other than Well were trying to develop code

OK

Yes no Well harsh this out We did this can zip right though this

Maggies going to make sure with Roseanne but basically shes cool

with us putting up page saying here are the

players and this is what

they do Say again please

When first
brought it
up with her she was she had the standard PR

person Oh you know we need release and got her off of that

pretty fast So shes actually on the concept fhn and Bobs

positive

too so basically
you want You
staff is to prepare
if that go for it
gotta

come up with description of what it is that youre doing had some

ideas but you still need to do that Anything else on that

so dont know What what how big list are we about

talking

here because you know there are only four of us who are actually

getting paid to do this

Thats right

Does that mean just those four

Yup think would be impolitic we didnt say

it if
by the way theres

skillion people that are

But can name those skillion people Or would that be bad

dont think it would be bad Well..

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Owners should be named mean they have

Yes How many are you

Like now they have license issues that are getting in their way But the

unlimited localization folks who want to put out localization kits for

4.0.4 urn wanted to put them on Mozilla.org on the FTP site that we

have That we dont have yet that was that they wanted to be up they

told me two weeks ago they would like it to have been up by today

Right

And where is it Sven wont return my phone calls

Sven doesnt work for his web site now hes not in IS

He was the one who

He said that is
part of the web site

OK

He committed ..

And asked Dan he was like Well if

they wont return your calls

they wont return mine either

Well we know where they sit

dont know where he sits

Call Mark Borzy Or somebody

OK...Ill track this down..

Do you want to talk to Mark Borzy

We should start with Sven

You want to start with Sven OK..

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We should at least give him the opportunity to ignore us and then we

can start moving on

Well gave him the opportunity to ignore us already

...explain to me do the same thing...lm not going to give him weak

items going to try to contact him

So we need an FTP machine and were going to need machine to run

the CBS repository for the source those are the two we need like

yesterday After that were going to need more And we should

probably talk to Mosedale about this when its stuff thats relevant and

needs to go out blah blah blah Were going to have some we talked

about this Were going to have some place for people to put stuff

Yeah

OK

Youre going to own directory structure names and stuff

yeah its probably actually going to be mean as far as the stuff

theyre talking about giving us now um Spraginsll probably do that

because its all documentation and hes in the process of figuring out

what the hierarchy should look like for the documentation area on

Mozilla.org

OK One level above that somebodys got to figure out Documentation

in place like this

goes

well yeah thats already done right Thats the menu down the left

side

lflcS51 /6
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.Thats under CBS control now

Yeah

Cool

All right lets catch after this

up

All right

have some more Is the documentation that on

questions goes

Mozilla
org under CBS control

Yes

So it will be

It is

It is now but we currently dont were in the process of setting it

up so

that we can give control of certain subdirectories to people basically by

giving them passwords without them control of the whole

giving tree

like the Rhapsody folks are going to have their own pages that they

update whenever they like but they cant like work the rest of the site

...Spragins for documentation as well but hadnt taken into account

that it was going to be under CBS control on Mozilla.org It is on warp

right now but that doesnt but dont know what that means

dont know what youre asking

Hes asking if
anyone else is going to change it on Mozilla.org and if

were going to have to manage two trees

Oh Um if we

This is our duty to delete one..

c6 c7
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...two trees..

Yeah if
you want to be the
person
whos responsible for all edits to that

document on Mozilla.org thats fine with me No problem at all

Hes worked Spragins working on that right

Working on what

Working on getting the documentation on Mozilla.org or getting it

ready to go out there or doing something on it

Yeah Hes to out where and then hes

basically going figure things go

going to give me hes going to you know make pile of stuff and

Im going to publish it Eventually different people will own different

parts of that

Have those guys um taken Shavers instructions and tried it yet

Im not sure what..

guess they couldnt the machine isnt

Well the machine is

up

What are you talking about

Shaver sent out instructions to people on how to modify the web site

from ...link Have done that

they

dont think
anyone but me and Shaver here which do you
people

mean You mean

The Rhapsody people

Um they have they havent put pushed anything back but they have

checked it out it is
working for them

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OK.
Are there holes in the firewalls so that we can get through to the

Mozilla.org machine like with Telnet

There still needs to be hole on port 39 or something there still has to

be hole in the firewall for port 39 right

Well it works

You tried from the site

Yeah

OK

So its like RSH but its secure

Yeah

OK

CUT

It doesnt matter cause its not..

...doing crypto its processor-intensive

Well ...s not that bad

OK

Im just worried about when we start getting mean CBS server on

the ladder one thing but

is
setting up and destroying the site setting

for the session costs

up

OK

Once youre moving its not that bad

OK um folks listen dont know if we really want to talk much about

If z53z/
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the bug system about right after this meeting were going to have

meeting about the bug system and guess the main reason Im bringing

it
up here is cause dont know how many people told And thats

Terrys going to be there and dont know how many of the rest of you

told Lloyd you Jamie

Everybodys to be there
going

OK Fine We can do that then then Theyre coming into this room

Theres been so much to do that been able to

everybodys keep very

very busy some cases more than that Um and were

CUT

...this week havent itd be really

actually produced my list thought

useful to start now we could all like chime in the things we think are

hot and uncovered and things have be done

that to by 3/31 obviously

party is one of them but other stuff too And uh once we

didnt bring my list

OK dont need everything on your list Some of the things on your

list are

Brandon brought my list

like for purposes of what Im talking about like this much of this is

docs

Yeah mean theres theres the thing is that Im not sure off the top

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of my head can rattle off the things on that list that really need to be

done..

dont care want to get started and then Ill create it and then you

guys can toss things at me any old time And Im going to start talking

about them on an ongoing basis OK mean you may think this is the

wrong form but were going to end up doing this anyway All right

Fine Go ahead Yeah So Um...we just did some we need some IS

machines

CUT

...client
eng to work

thought we started..

Im sorry but thats part of we have big resource over there and if

we dont harness that on 3/31 were going to be stupid Were going to

be wasting that resource

agree with that just dont Im just not sure the responsibility for

deciding how they want to do their work lies in this room think it

lies in that
building The most important we can do is make sure
thing

they can do whatever they want

There are questions that are in that that that we need to settle so

that they can figure out how theyre going to get their work done OK
So Ill

said .. questions

You just used the same words

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What do you want me to write down Lloyd Ill write it down

Seriously

.non-CBS related questions

Its cultural issue all the cultures got to be in place so that people

know how to get their work done

The culture has to be in place

Yes Im sorry David but you dont get this man culture theres

bun when you get large group of programmers together you dont

Explain to me how one legislates culture Lloyd

What you do is
you is
you its painstaking what youve got to go

around and Tn people in the way that theyre supposed to wo

and youve gOit6iet them know what the rules are You got to let

them know what theyre responsible for Youve got to let them know

what theyre accountable for These are the rules about how you get

stuff done And you keep you keep putting this off like its not

important and its really important

think hes right Hes right You got to do it Not

That is such dramatic misuse of the word culture that dont even

know how to start

What do you want me to write down Training Educating

Culture lau

Unless evenjone sp

Next What else we need to do Um think source

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Which includes getting lot in and stuff It also includes getting the

technology spread out need to talk to you about need to talk to you

about think
company sent you mail this morning on it

You said earlier docs

Yeah Jamies all those docs

OK...pause Well you guys are just like mouthin off all over

here pause OK What other things are on my agenda make

we get covered have my own list and dont know why theyre

A/t.sj Cr/p-J
coming to my head either Oh gosh Um we have to b6t 111c-Cio

stuff Should have too didnt Do you have

brought my list
just lists

do you have things in your mind about um...I dont want to read

distribution stuff that

hierarchy you

Is the Mozilla ish not CP ish

The stuff about how people get their work done is

Look Mozilla just dominates your attitude right now and this is

your..

Thats all that is thats all Im doing

Do you have some other things that you know were going to need to

get done that youre just prioritizing below that but you know were

going to need to get to them before we ship ..

Obviously

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Theres

Come on guys youre not helping here

We need the bug system

Do we

Do we need Tinder yeah People people have to file bugs

didnt think you were going to didnt think that was to

going

happen by 3/31

Its to- its- before 3/31

going it
may happen

That would be good ..

Say so now How about Tinderbox and Bansai

Do they make sense

Not until we actually have the mean not until those are all again

theyre part of the culture theyre

Well those are tools..

mean Im writing down need bug system cant use bug system

unless we ship source Right And we havent shipped source yet so

should erase this No We still need to deal with this And just

because have know have to do this

All right all

right

The CBS query system we how about that

got to client

The CBS query system you know lets ..

you

Its more important lets say what change has happened between this

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point in time and that point in time Just general mechanism Thats

...write that down Why do we need to do that given that were giving

them CBS access

Because its we dont have to

Its neat tool but that can run locally Right Cant it

We have to get neat tool it would be really good to have out there

and the way the tool works data as and its not easy
it gathers its it
goes

to make
you want
it for the data in track
go retroactively so if to

everything that happens since we put it out on /31 we should have it

start running on 3/31

Actually was figuring itd be part of the

No havent

Is that on your list

Well dont think we know the answer yet

Were going to make replicated we need read-only CBS servers as part

of the CBS question And how were going to do that And so part of

that ..would be mirroring that same that the

history log so

Whos mirroring

was just about to mention that Shaver has collected list of

large

people willing to be mirror sites except theyre all still tentative at this

point urn because they need to know well how much am

mirroring and where am getting it from and do need password

and these on us having an FTP rnachine

all that like
questions hinge

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and knowing some information about the packages in which were

going to be delivering source

was going to look at the actually was going to talk to Noah and

was going to go look at the archives to see if

anybody else has set up

read-only CBS mirrors and how to do it and if not was going to post

some questions on the

.tarballs are easily mirrored

was talking about FTP mirrors

Right OK
And we know we can guess how big they are and we can do we can

tell them they will or will not need password dont understand why

they would need password urn and we can allow for FTP push if we

want if its lirnited number of mirrors if

they want us to if
theyre

willing to let us push what Id like somebody to say is yeah Ill just

make that happen

There are these are ..

think Shavers all over it he needs some information

just

Is he going to be around make

long enough to it happen

Hes going to be around until 3/31

Im going to keep looking at you If Shavers all over it thats fine Im

going to keep looking at you Urn

So that was FTP mirror

Yeah

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OK youre talking about CBS mirroring

Yeah thats different issue and also .. Now

That there does that have to be done by 3/31

Maybe not dont mind putting it on the list

think it could probably wait

mean we cant do it until we have the CBS questions answered

anyway

...another thing that does have to be done by 3/31 what were going to

have to do is distribution of US I-source

Are we actually doing that

Im going to try as hard as can

Good

Why would we not

How does that work dont know

IBM Corp signs piece of paper that says wont redistribute

illegally and Im an American citizen or am not foreign thingy as

defined by

...and we give them ..

OK so this is
interesting

Does this mean that

only be
distributes source that can
Mozilla.org

distributed inside the United States

Wed actually have to argue that out Right

OK

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propose that we do

OK

CD-ROM

So the guy-

...sornething like that..

the guy who urn who did the Apache SSL port

M-hrn

Very sharp guy As like he wants to be crypto-zilla.org Hes already

registered the domain and hes

Crypto-zilla.org

Yeah Yeah Urn basically...the narne was rny idea of course sat him

down and said Register this dornain and he said Thats great

Of course you did

Jlttbasically you know theres the Apache folks and then what this

guy does is he takes their releases and he puts crypto in them And

hes in the UK

This is Ben Lory

Yeah thats his name And uh so he wants to do the same thing here

You know hes proven that hes able to do this

OK absolutely presuppose that that kind of activitys going to occur

We know its going to occur in New Zealand and Finland

OK sure But the thing is if were also in the business of like mean

was thinking that Mozilla.org was did not touch crypto ever no how

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And that would just like all be his game But like if were doing crypto

too mean

Wouldnt it be

We would want to coordinate with him somehow but thats really

hard

Why is it hard

ell were writing competing pieces of code or dealing in

competing pieces of code right

Look lets be realists here If we put the source up for dont know

how were going to do it

expect

Im not saying people arent going to export the source Im saying

Stop stop stop stop stop Im asking very real question Im not trying

to be hypothetical OK Do want all

right if
put sources out

American sources out with control you know theyre going to

theyre going to get out there

Yes

OK Am hurting our efforts or helping our efforts by doing that Am

CUT

...So for you guys you know Horowitz wanted to maybe not do that

OK Well

Has that changed

As far as know Horowitz is

talking about

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CUT

So right now the clienthas.. fl

really dont want to focus on 3/31 get it out the door Get it to ship

and then worry about it when were

OK so youd be OK to fix this after 3/31

would be OK to address the build systems as whole Actually Id

really like to see us go to Windows because it builds literally two or

three..

Thats different issue than an

object-naming Object-naming is

interface between modules right..

...on UNIX On UNIX its an interface between modules And on

Windows what we want to do..

...Youre saying that on windows you build everything on one

directory

its different thing its different of

way doing things

Uh we need to talk about that more

Yes we do Thats why cant accept the part of it without dealing

with the whole

OK

OK

CUT

Do you have second There are couple of macro issues and then couple

of more focused ones The macro is how to bring together client aad-the

ft

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people in the server group who are going to be responsible for shipping out

source code when its done

Right well the server group is in

they get their components are we

share some components an SPR in this case And when youre in the

middle like an SPR is they want to set the rules with which can
up they

operate and make deliverables into the other organizations And so its

always been an ongoing baffle with us They want to do it their they

want to they set up way of doing within their organization

process

and didnt get CPB client development to adopt that

process and so its

always been an issue and so what we saw today was well had we we

have process that works for client to get their stuff in free source
up

and Allan and Tom brought in their in their they want to see how

they can get their code to fit into this

Just tell us what are the sort of pressure points now as we get closer to 3/31

what are you feeling what are the main concerns have
you

Un my main concerns are what happens after 3/31 OK so what we

have is everybody pushing towards goal of getting the free source out

And the OK how

day afterwards theyre going to say do get my work

done in this new world And urn its very hard because where they

checked their code into before the rules well Toms group
actually our

group Mozilla.org would like the rules to be different right And if the

process isnt in place for them to get their work done then it becomes

real problem we have large organization that basically is immobile

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and that is waste of lot of resources So Im nervous about it we

could have some serious idle time if were not careful So thats what Im

focusing on

Anything else you think we should be following...it seems like

you the

issues are out on the table

Theres decision points mean theres consensus to say

getting enough

yeah this is the way we need to go and go ahead and push ahead so the

things that are undecided really need to be decided soon and then urn

theres lot of work to be done to actually make it clear Are there any

other issues

dont want to slow you down...I know you have to be in that meeting...well

justfollowyou . i$

7G-a 1tzeCe_

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